Amazing,although i don't agree with this i frubaled you because at least you are presenting something,theif only you could even provide evidence of Jinns it would be something,so this is your theory of what the challenge is or is it in the Quran.
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The Challenge in the Qur'an
- Thread starter YmirGF
- Start date
Amazing,although i don't agree with this i frubaled you because at least you are presenting something,theif only you could even provide evidence of Jinns it would be something,so this is your theory of what the challenge is or is it in the Quran.
maro
muslimah
yes..they are all originally the words of God..but the challenge offered by the quran is confined to the quran..
okay
1)The quran is arabic
2)you are challenged to bring a sura like the quran
3)So..how the hell would it be like the quran if it's not in arabic ?!!!!
4)I can't beleieve i am having this childish converstaion
So from that, we have:
Otherwise, I dunno.
- From God? (How do you know?)
- Dictated by a prophet (How do you know?)
- From an angel as intercessor between God and man (why? How do you know?)
- It must be eloquent
- Arabic? Hebrew? Aramaic? Semitic languages. Koine Greek, not..? Therefore, Arabic cannot have the whole grasp on the challenge?
- Poetry (why?)
- More than one author permissible
- For all the world: therefore, not just Arabs, Meccans, or those at the time, so it can also not be in Arabic?
to bring anything like it _in its eloquence_ ,be it from God..a prophet..an angel..from the devil...from one or million authors...there are no restrictions
and It has to be in arabic..becuase THe quran is ARABIC
Even if you do get a response, I doubt it will be anything worthwhile (probably the usual "because the Qur'an is in Arabic" response). Just keep posting messages until you're answered, like me.
you seem to have a particular problem with the Fact that the quran is arabic..and logically so do the challenge...so what's your problem exactly ? why is this simple fact not *worthwhile* to you ?!!!!!
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I agree,one has to be able to read Arabic to get the full understanding as we all know it does'nt translate that well into English therefore it must exclude it from being a universal challenge.
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
Okay.
1. Yes?
2. Define what was intended by "like". This could easily be in relation to its eloquence.
3. Similar message, meaning and eloquence, similar style - not in the same language. God speaks all languages, so is this not confining God to a small box?
4. It's only childish because you don't like that I don't accept that it has to be in Arabic, which is in my eyes a totally illogical confinement
Exactly - except one, Arabic.
But God knows all languages, so having to write the challenge into only Arabic because that's the language of his latest Holy Book is illogical. The challenge is for all mankind, not just the Arabs nor Arab speakers.
Not at all. No problem with the Qur'an being in Arabic. My problem is when one states the challenge must be in Arabic, yet there is no evidence of this other than the fact that it was revealed in Arabic.
Why was it revealed in Arabic? Because Muhammad was an Arab, and so were the Bedouins, the Meccans and the Medinans. What good would having something brought to a langauge of only a minority of the area, or not at all? Would it make sense for God to give Muhammad a Qur'an in English, when that English was a much different form than what we have today, and I doubt there were any English speakers in Arabia?
Because this isn't part of the challenge but one's interpretation.
The Bible is the word of God. Prove it isn't by writing one like it. You can't, nobody can. Even if you try, you will fail. But you must write it in Koine Greek and Aramaic. Chaucer is the best poetry, so it's from God. Nobody can write something as good as Chaucer, and even if someone did, it wouldn't be valid unless one wrote it in Middle English.
***? Those doesn't even make sense when they are supposed to be a Divine universal challenge, they must be available to the whole world and encompass every language, otherwise the challenge is not a universal challenge. It's not a case of get yourself a PhD or to fluency in Arabic or Middle English first, then come back and fail!
Even so, Qur'anic challenge - in Arabic, someone has done that, so I'm going to copy and paste it. I don't believe it is equal to the Qur'an, but for the sake of argument, what do you make of this surah? Surely, it doesn't even compare to the Qur'an in your eyes, right? Why, what's wrong with it?
Surat Al-Iman ("Faith")
- And make mention of the disciples in the Book, when the wind blew
while they were sailing at night. (1)
{wadhkur filkitabbil hawari-yeena idha asafatir ri-yahoo bihem
laylan wahum yubhiroon}
And then it appeared to them seeing the phantom of Christ walking on the
water. They said: Is He our Lord deriding us or have we gone insane? (2)
{Idh tara'a lahum alal mi-yahee tayful Maseehee yamshee fakaloo
a'huwa rabbuna yahza'oo bina am kad massana tayfun min junoon.}
And there came the voice of the Master announcing to them:
Do not fear, It is I, Don't you see. (3)
{faja'ahumu sawtul-mu'allimi an la takhafoo inni ana huwa
afala tubsiroon?}
Hence, one of them shouted and asked: My Lord, order me, if you
were He, to walk toward you on the water, So God may convert my
doubt to certitude. (4)
{fahatafa hatifon minhumu yakooloo rabbi murni in kunta hakkan huwa
atee alal miyahee elayka asa an yubaddilal'lahoo shalli biyakeen}
He {The Lord) said to him, come toward me and be a miracle for man
that they may remember. (5)
{kala fas'a elay'ya walitakun linnasi ayatan la'allahumu yatadhakkaroon}
And as the disciple began to walk, he saw how strong the wind was
so he became afraid and began to drown. Thus he yelled asking his
lord to help. (6)
{wa'idh tafikal hawari'yoo yamshee ra'a shiddatar'reehi fakhafa
wabada'a yaghrakoo fasa'ha birabbihee yasta'een.}
And He {The Lord} extended His hand to him and took him with it and
said: Oh you who has little faith, such is the reward of those who
doubt. (7)
{famadda biyameenihi lahoo fa'akhadhahoo biha wakala ya kalilal
imani hadha jaza'ool mumtareen}
And as soon as He went on the ship with him the wind calmed down and
the disciples thanked Him with praise and shouted and said: (8)
{wa idh rakibas safinata ma'ahoo sakanatir riyahoo lita'wiha
fasabbahal hawari'yoona bihamdihee wahatafoo lahoo ka'ileen}
You are truly the Son of God; in you we believed and in front of you
we kneel. (9)
{anta huwab'nullahi hakkan fika nahnoo amanna wa'amamka
nakhurroo sajideen}
He said: Joy is for those who believed without mixing their faith
with a doubt for those are truly the successful. (10)
{kala tooba lilladheena amanoo walam yulbisoo imanahumu
bishakken fa'oola'ika humul muflihoon}
maro
muslimah
by ' like '...let's say..something that can decieve an arab muslim ,one who is fully aware of the quranic style and make him think it's from the quran...how about that ?
I don't think the challenge is to bring anything with the same message or meaning...because that only requires an idiot to imitate the meanings of the quran...i don't think the challenge was directed to the idiots :sarcastic
like it in its eloquence and style ?..agreed...but how can you compare the eloquence of an arabic text to the eloquence of an ..say english one ?!!!!!
To compare the eloquence and the style of the arabic quran to any other text..it has to be in arabic too...that's simple logic to me...Plain and simple...if it's not to you ...then good luck...because we are done with this discussion.
Ummm...i really thought you were better than that
For god sake...this ' latest book ' is the subject of the challenge ? do you get it ? it's simple...
oh God..i guess i have already said we are done with this discussion..:cover:
Really...says who ?
I am sorry..but the quran was revealed in arabic becuase God wanted it to be in arabic...there's a very good reason for that...and accordingly the final prophet was meant to be an arab...HE WAS MEANT TO BE...
***? Those doesn't even make sense when they are supposed to be a Divine universal challenge, they must be available to the whole world and encompass every language, otherwise the challenge is not a universal challenge. It's not a case of get yourself a PhD or to fluency in Arabic or Middle English first, then come back and fail!
what is meant by the challenge is universal ?...it's universal only in the sense that everybody can learn arabic and try...
if you want to say it's local..for those who can only undertstand ,taste and imitate the quran..so be it
Even so, Qur'anic challenge - in Arabic, someone has done that, so I'm going to copy and paste it. I don't believe it is equal to the Qur'an, but for the sake of argument, what do you make of this surah? Surely, it doesn't even compare to the Qur'an in your eyes, right? Why, what's wrong with it?
I'd be interested in knowing why you think this doesn't compare - like, does it not have the eloquence, grammatical errors, no scientific meanings, etc?
finally...you began to make more sense..
okay..let me simplify it to you..
I memorize a big portion of the quran already..but not all of it.....which means that it's possible for me to listen to something and hesitate wether it's quran or not..
The surah you posted can't decieve me....you can't make me think it's from the quran...because my ears are sensitive enough to the quranic style and i can easily recognize it...
so this sura is not like the quran..and accordingly not up to the challenge....that's subjective i guess
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YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Surely you will admit that it is a somewhat unreasonable requirement, Maro. If God speaks through the heart of the writer what on Earth difference would it make what language he or she chose to pen their manifesto in? The challenge is skewed from the perspective that no one can seriously address the challenge without speaking Arabic, contrary to what Fatihah and others have posted about being able to reply in any language.
If a person who writes their challenge firmly believes that they are writing the words of god it puts the requirements into an awkward position. They could look at the language stipulation and claim, "That was then, this is now." In theory, since the person could be writing the new word of god, their words would, by default, carry significant weight. Realistically speaking, in such a case, I'm not sure it would even be reasonable to compare their writing to previous scriptures.
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McBell
Unbound
Where in the original challenge issued by Allah himself does it state that the submitted work has to be in Arabic?
If you can be bothered to address this very basic of ponderings, perhaps we con move on to the next point...
kai
ragamuffin
OK i see your point , Arabic is crucial to Islam , Arabic is crucial to understanding the Quran. the only true Quran is an Arabic one.
I have to agree with you, what you say makes sence.
The main point here is if the only true Quran is an Arabic one , even a complete translation of a Quran is not equal to the Quran, then any other writing that attempts to meet the challenge must be in Arabic too.
The revelation was in Arabic because the revelation was for Arabs, its an Arab religion in my opinion.
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YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Perhaps they understand how hollow the "challenge" is. :help:
Most of this post is part of a post i have directed at YmirGF, but he couldn't reply, i don't know why ...
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...436-modern-mystics-vision-god.html#post874650
To YmirGF, Mestemia, Kai, and others ...
You already know the challenge, but you are asking why does it supposed to be in Arabic? Is it true that Islam was meant form Arabs only because it was in Arabic?
Let's see ...
[105] Thus do We explain the Signs by various (symbols) that they may say, "Thou hast learnt this (from somebody)," and that We may make the matter clear to those who know. (Quran 6:103)
Now, imagine if Prophet Mohammed came to people speaking in Hebrew, Greek, and many other languages, anybody would have said that Mohammed simply translated the previous scriptures into Arabic, and added to it some stuff from here and there and him being an illiterate man would have no purpose then at all.
Prophet Mohammed was an illiterate man. He knew nothing of other languages. He couldn't even write or read in Arabic. This was the ULTIMATE proof that Prophet Mohammed couldn't have brought this from somewhere else other than Allah.
Also, note that it was in Arabic, which means that, even if someone has translated for him some stuff from the previous scripture, the Quran was come "for certain" in a poor manner which can easily be refuted by the Arab expert at that time. It was simply too perfect and too good to be true for them. It was so original.
That's why Allah said ....
[103] We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear. (Quran 16:103)
If he have been taught this by others, from where?
Some said at that time it was from the Jews and Christians at that time, then here God refuted that by telling them this is the clear word of God in pure fluent Arabic, accepted to be a miracle in its language which no one in that time could challenge even God asked them to produce one verse like it. ONLY ONE Surah and all this fuss could fall down apart and Mohammed would fail "God forbid". Prophet Mohammed can't just pick some Hebrew or Greek tongue and convert all that into PERFECT Arabic knowledge within seconds or minutes !!!
Anyway, assume what they assume, so here is the challenge:
[23] And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (if there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. (Quran 2:23)
Read here with me please ...
Arabic language in general and Arabic poetry in particular were, and still are, of a central importance to Arabs. Philip Hitti describes Arabs' fascination by poetry by saying "No people in the world manifest such enthusiastic admiration for literary expression and are so moved by the word, spoken or written, as the Arabs. Modern audiences in Baghdad, Damascus and Cairo can be stirred to the highest degree by the recital of poems, only vaguely comprehended, and by the delivery of orations in the classical tongue, though it be only partially understood. The rhythm, the rhyme, the music, produce on them the effect of what they call "lawful magic"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_...Islamic_poetry
You see, God challenged them in the best of the best of what they used to be proud of, and they fail to produce only ONE SINGLE SURAH. They could just see the shortest surah in the Quran and give it a shot. But all the arabs acknowledged the magic of the Quran, but there is no whoo-poo magic in here, Its a pure Arabic language.
After they failed to stand in front of this challenge, they gave up and say ...
[4] So they wonder that a Warner has come to them from among themselves! And the Unbelievers say, "This is a sorcerer telling lies! (Quran 38:4)
See !!!
Remember when Moses have a stick, parted the sea, etc. Why is that?
Because at that time, the people used to be so good in magic, and God showed them clearly that what Moses have got is not a magic, and if they think its, then they can give it a shot.
[113] So there came the sorcerers to Fir'aun: they said, "Of course we shall have a (suitable) reward if we win!"
[114] He said: "Yea, (and more), for ye shall in that case be (raised to posts) nearest (to my person)."
[115] They said: "O Musa! wilt thou throw (first), or shall we have the (first) throw?"
[116] Said Musa: "Throw ye (first)." So when they threw, they bewitched the eyes of the people, and struck terror into them: for they showed a great (feat of) magic.
[117] We put it into Musa's mind by inspiration: "Throw (now) thy rod": and behold! it swallows up straightway all the falsehoods which they fake!
[118] Thus truth was confirmed. And all that they did was made of no effect.
[119] So the (great ones) were vanquished there and then, and were made to look small.
[120] But the sorcerers fell down prostrate in adoration.
[121] Saying: "We believe in the Lord of the Worlds,.
[122] "The Lord of Musa and Harun." (Quran 7:113-122)
He (Allah) sent down a pure arabic word of His to the people who were so proud of their poetry and amazing tongue, and they failed to be up to the challenge.
He sent Moses with clear miracles for people who used to be the greatest of the greatest in magic, and they failed to be up to the challenge.
Do you want other examples of the continuous failure of mere arrogant human beings when they sink in denial and attempt to challenge the signs of Allah, do you?
Paul, most of the time i find myself so hopeless in front of the Quran. Its way too powerful for me to grasp or handle entirely, and i feel so tiny and ignorant when i try to explain one verse or two. What is in the Quran is just too much, and i feel so bad that i can only grasp just a little out of it. That's why, I'm learning everyday something new about the Quran, and i even find a new wisdom in verses i have been reading since ages when i really put some effort into communicating with God through his very own words, even if it was a mere assumption that its the word of God, but the Quran is just too huge to be ignored, i believe so.
So, we conclude that:
1- The Quran was in Arabic because if it wasn't, people would have easily said that Mohammed have brought this from the previous scriptures (i.e. Torah, Injil, etc).
2- Islam is not only for Arabs, but knowing some Arabic is essential in order to practice the rituals. I see people from other religions who would memorize certain words and say it during their rituals but they don't understand what it means and even if they understood the literal meaning, they wouldn't know the root of this word and how significance it's.
3- The challenge supposed to be in Arabic because it's absolutely no easy task to compare a very rich language like Arabic with a modern simple language like English for instance. This is common sense people, so go pick something else to complain about.
1- Like it, in its perfect structure, and the way it's nicely put, and the unique way in telling it, and it's fascinating and strange way, and to be short and perfect in meaning, the way Quran is.
2- Like it, in the way it tells us about the past, and the future.
3- Like it, because it has to contain the unique way of telling about the reward and punishment, wisdom, proverbs, examples, stories, etc.
4- Like it, in its truth, and it supposed to be unable to be changed or altered.
5- Like it, to be in Arabic, just like the Quran, from its own nature.
6- Like it, in a way that you always feel you are reading something new, you always have that feeling that you get a new meaning every time you read the same exact verse, the way Quran is.
7- Like it, in a way that those who listen to it never feel bored when they do so even if they listened to it all over and over and over again, and in way that its miracles never end, and its amazing signs never vanish with time.
8- Like it, in its continuous verses, and miracles.
I can go on if you want. Before coming here aimlessly and foolishly trying to talk about the Quran, you better go and read what experts say about it.
Of course, anybody can read the Quran, but can everybody know that the Quran contains all of the above? of course not. Experts in language, literature, religions, voices, etc, have the ability to evaluate such a masterpiece.
I didn't attempt to give a real reply before because until now i didn't see a real challenge. I saw nothing in most of the posts in this thread except arrogance, ignorance, and denial, but all of this need to stop now.
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...436-modern-mystics-vision-god.html#post874650
To YmirGF, Mestemia, Kai, and others ...
You already know the challenge, but you are asking why does it supposed to be in Arabic? Is it true that Islam was meant form Arabs only because it was in Arabic?
Let's see ...
[105] Thus do We explain the Signs by various (symbols) that they may say, "Thou hast learnt this (from somebody)," and that We may make the matter clear to those who know. (Quran 6:103)
Now, imagine if Prophet Mohammed came to people speaking in Hebrew, Greek, and many other languages, anybody would have said that Mohammed simply translated the previous scriptures into Arabic, and added to it some stuff from here and there and him being an illiterate man would have no purpose then at all.
Prophet Mohammed was an illiterate man. He knew nothing of other languages. He couldn't even write or read in Arabic. This was the ULTIMATE proof that Prophet Mohammed couldn't have brought this from somewhere else other than Allah.
Also, note that it was in Arabic, which means that, even if someone has translated for him some stuff from the previous scripture, the Quran was come "for certain" in a poor manner which can easily be refuted by the Arab expert at that time. It was simply too perfect and too good to be true for them. It was so original.
That's why Allah said ....
[103] We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear. (Quran 16:103)
If he have been taught this by others, from where?
Some said at that time it was from the Jews and Christians at that time, then here God refuted that by telling them this is the clear word of God in pure fluent Arabic, accepted to be a miracle in its language which no one in that time could challenge even God asked them to produce one verse like it. ONLY ONE Surah and all this fuss could fall down apart and Mohammed would fail "God forbid". Prophet Mohammed can't just pick some Hebrew or Greek tongue and convert all that into PERFECT Arabic knowledge within seconds or minutes !!!
Anyway, assume what they assume, so here is the challenge:
[23] And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (if there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. (Quran 2:23)
Read here with me please ...
Arabic language in general and Arabic poetry in particular were, and still are, of a central importance to Arabs. Philip Hitti describes Arabs' fascination by poetry by saying "No people in the world manifest such enthusiastic admiration for literary expression and are so moved by the word, spoken or written, as the Arabs. Modern audiences in Baghdad, Damascus and Cairo can be stirred to the highest degree by the recital of poems, only vaguely comprehended, and by the delivery of orations in the classical tongue, though it be only partially understood. The rhythm, the rhyme, the music, produce on them the effect of what they call "lawful magic"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_...Islamic_poetry
You see, God challenged them in the best of the best of what they used to be proud of, and they fail to produce only ONE SINGLE SURAH. They could just see the shortest surah in the Quran and give it a shot. But all the arabs acknowledged the magic of the Quran, but there is no whoo-poo magic in here, Its a pure Arabic language.
After they failed to stand in front of this challenge, they gave up and say ...
[4] So they wonder that a Warner has come to them from among themselves! And the Unbelievers say, "This is a sorcerer telling lies! (Quran 38:4)
See !!!
Remember when Moses have a stick, parted the sea, etc. Why is that?
Because at that time, the people used to be so good in magic, and God showed them clearly that what Moses have got is not a magic, and if they think its, then they can give it a shot.
[113] So there came the sorcerers to Fir'aun: they said, "Of course we shall have a (suitable) reward if we win!"
[114] He said: "Yea, (and more), for ye shall in that case be (raised to posts) nearest (to my person)."
[115] They said: "O Musa! wilt thou throw (first), or shall we have the (first) throw?"
[116] Said Musa: "Throw ye (first)." So when they threw, they bewitched the eyes of the people, and struck terror into them: for they showed a great (feat of) magic.
[117] We put it into Musa's mind by inspiration: "Throw (now) thy rod": and behold! it swallows up straightway all the falsehoods which they fake!
[118] Thus truth was confirmed. And all that they did was made of no effect.
[119] So the (great ones) were vanquished there and then, and were made to look small.
[120] But the sorcerers fell down prostrate in adoration.
[121] Saying: "We believe in the Lord of the Worlds,.
[122] "The Lord of Musa and Harun." (Quran 7:113-122)
He (Allah) sent down a pure arabic word of His to the people who were so proud of their poetry and amazing tongue, and they failed to be up to the challenge.
He sent Moses with clear miracles for people who used to be the greatest of the greatest in magic, and they failed to be up to the challenge.
Do you want other examples of the continuous failure of mere arrogant human beings when they sink in denial and attempt to challenge the signs of Allah, do you?
Paul, most of the time i find myself so hopeless in front of the Quran. Its way too powerful for me to grasp or handle entirely, and i feel so tiny and ignorant when i try to explain one verse or two. What is in the Quran is just too much, and i feel so bad that i can only grasp just a little out of it. That's why, I'm learning everyday something new about the Quran, and i even find a new wisdom in verses i have been reading since ages when i really put some effort into communicating with God through his very own words, even if it was a mere assumption that its the word of God, but the Quran is just too huge to be ignored, i believe so.
So, we conclude that:
1- The Quran was in Arabic because if it wasn't, people would have easily said that Mohammed have brought this from the previous scriptures (i.e. Torah, Injil, etc).
2- Islam is not only for Arabs, but knowing some Arabic is essential in order to practice the rituals. I see people from other religions who would memorize certain words and say it during their rituals but they don't understand what it means and even if they understood the literal meaning, they wouldn't know the root of this word and how significance it's.
3- The challenge supposed to be in Arabic because it's absolutely no easy task to compare a very rich language like Arabic with a modern simple language like English for instance. This is common sense people, so go pick something else to complain about.
-------------------------------------------
Now, let's see how to be up to the challenge. the "Surah like it" as Ibn Hayan say have to be:
1- Like it, in its perfect structure, and the way it's nicely put, and the unique way in telling it, and it's fascinating and strange way, and to be short and perfect in meaning, the way Quran is.
2- Like it, in the way it tells us about the past, and the future.
3- Like it, because it has to contain the unique way of telling about the reward and punishment, wisdom, proverbs, examples, stories, etc.
4- Like it, in its truth, and it supposed to be unable to be changed or altered.
5- Like it, to be in Arabic, just like the Quran, from its own nature.
6- Like it, in a way that you always feel you are reading something new, you always have that feeling that you get a new meaning every time you read the same exact verse, the way Quran is.
7- Like it, in a way that those who listen to it never feel bored when they do so even if they listened to it all over and over and over again, and in way that its miracles never end, and its amazing signs never vanish with time.
8- Like it, in its continuous verses, and miracles.
I can go on if you want. Before coming here aimlessly and foolishly trying to talk about the Quran, you better go and read what experts say about it.
Of course, anybody can read the Quran, but can everybody know that the Quran contains all of the above? of course not. Experts in language, literature, religions, voices, etc, have the ability to evaluate such a masterpiece.
I didn't attempt to give a real reply before because until now i didn't see a real challenge. I saw nothing in most of the posts in this thread except arrogance, ignorance, and denial, but all of this need to stop now.
And by the way, don't give the Muslims here a hard time because they are not scholars. You know where to find scholars. Just go to their sites and ask them. You know better than me that we all came here to share with others what we know, not to issue official fatwas or opinions about our respective religion. I think those who have fun of those who want to share something with them have no sense of humor and they should be ashamed of themselves for harassing normal people like that.
So, if any of you knows Arabic and have managed to come up with a "Surah like it", go and give it to some experts to evaluate it for you because neither me nor anyone here can judge what you came up with whether in a positive or a negative way.
For those of you who are sincere to know more, i'm very open to continue the discussion, but i assure you, i won't waste my time with wannabees or people that came just to mock and have fun.
Good luck!
So, if any of you knows Arabic and have managed to come up with a "Surah like it", go and give it to some experts to evaluate it for you because neither me nor anyone here can judge what you came up with whether in a positive or a negative way.
For those of you who are sincere to know more, i'm very open to continue the discussion, but i assure you, i won't waste my time with wannabees or people that came just to mock and have fun.
Good luck!
I have'nt come here to post a Surah like it or even try to Tashan,personally i find the challenge very interesting but i do see it as only a challenge for Arabs at the time of Muhammed.
As we all know Arabic translated into English loses some of its meaning and obviously this prevents me from getting the full meaning from the same Surah as you have read so yes IMO it was a challenge then but not a universal one now.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
What an arrogant pile of steaming garbage this is, TashaN. You think to tell us this. Tell that to your Muslim friends who can't seem to get their own stories straight. Like -- seriously.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Part One:
I note that it was you who did not come back to the thread to check my answers, so one can only wonder what you are going on about now.
Clearly, I gave your post all the attention that I felt it deserved, TashaN.
I note that it was you who did not come back to the thread to check my answers, so one can only wonder what you are going on about now.
Personally, TashaN, I don't give a flying phooey if it is supposed to be in Arabic or not. If it is supposed to be in Arabic that simply cuts out a rather large chunk of the human population from responding. It DOES make me wonder why Fatihah continually tells people to take the challenge, knowing full well that they would have to learn Arabic first and then gain enough mastery of the language to write fluently in the language. This is a small, but important detail, to be sure. I am glad though that we have at least arrived at the understanding that the so-called "challenge" MUST be presented in Arabic -- so I suppose we are getting somewhere.
But your esteemed Prophet did meet with significant ridicule, skepticism and accusations early in his career. This disappeared later on after many of those opponents had been silenced permenantly.
I get rather tired of this silly argument, TashaN. Just because the man did not read and write it does not follow that he was stupid and not a gifted, highly eloquent speaker. I assume he was able to talk and think. Add to this the talent for memorizing long tales during that era and in my view that is all that would be needed.
What are you talking about? It took 23 years (I think) for him to bring down the Quran, which is more than enough time for someone to craft such a work in their head. Where do you get the within seconds or minutes aspect?
It is worth noting that most Arabic Poets of the time did'nt recite the poetry themselves and would normally have someone to recite it for them i forget the Arab name for them.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Part Two:
You are using a Jewish legend about a figure there is no physical evidence having ever existed who reportedly used a supernatural force (magic) that has so far eluded science and would therefore seem to be equally non-existent to make your argument?
*rolls eyes*
Undoubtedly this is similar to those of us who love opera. I do not have to know what is being said by the singers, as I can feel the overall gist of the intent of the writer. What is ignored is that imagination plays a HUGE part in all this. For example, once I looked up the words of a famous aria only to find the words were well... almost silly. The actual words were nowhere near what I IMAGINED them to be. I would suggest it is a similar case with those people listening to poetry in Baghdad, Damascus and Cairo. What they fail to perceive is the underlying raw power of their own imaginations.
Remember here the role of imagination, TashaN. I am not meaning that in a negative sense, but simply as a fact that is perhaps overlooked. For generations the Arabs have told themselves how utterly wonderful the Quran is. Perhaps this is why so very few Arab writers have achieved worldwide appreciation because they are locked in the cannot better the Quran mentality. The point being is that if one implicitly believes that something cannot be done there is virtually no possibility that they can do it. Add to this the injunction that those who take on the challenge and fail will be rewarded with the HellFire. To me, that would make rather superstitious people wary of taking the challenge.
Let me get this straight.
You are using a Jewish legend about a figure there is no physical evidence having ever existed who reportedly used a supernatural force (magic) that has so far eluded science and would therefore seem to be equally non-existent to make your argument?
*rolls eyes*
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Part Three:
The vast majority of people cannot do this for a multitude of reasons. Some eloquent speakers could probably match the literary quality with ease, but without the desire to impart a new vision of reality to mankind their efforts could only be considered wonderful failures. So, in some ways, I get the challenge, TashaN perhaps moreso than some Muslims as I am on the outside looking in, whilst they are on the inside looking out.
Muslims THINK it is a reasonable challenge without appreciating the ramifications of the challenge that make it almost, stress almost, impossible to complete. THAT is my point. Unless the challenger believes they too are appointed by God almighty to write their own challenging work there is virtually no possibility that their writing will cover enough topics to constitute a meaningful challenge. So the challenge isnt really JUST to create a copy of the Quran, it is also to create a new religion with a new prophet at its source.
Now be realistic. How likely do you think that happening is?
If you think that it is unlikely then the challenge becomes almost meaningless to all but the believer who wouldnt dream of taking the challenge in the first place. Add to this the reality that people are not so easily led (due to modern educations systems in place) as during the time of Muhammad and you end up with what is virtually an impossible challenge. When you make a challenge so difficult to complete that almost no one can complete it then it isn't really a challenge at all. It's a safe bet.
I appreciate what you are saying, TashaN, but this tells us more about your ability to understand than it does about what you are attempting to understand. You do touch on the hugeness thing though and that is a point I made to Fatihah when I said that to seriously answer the challenge an individual would have to have powerful motivation. The reason is that to successfully challenge the Quran the challenger would, by default, be creating a whole new religion. This is where the challenge becomes somewhat unreasonable.
The vast majority of people cannot do this for a multitude of reasons. Some eloquent speakers could probably match the literary quality with ease, but without the desire to impart a new vision of reality to mankind their efforts could only be considered wonderful failures. So, in some ways, I get the challenge, TashaN perhaps moreso than some Muslims as I am on the outside looking in, whilst they are on the inside looking out.
Muslims THINK it is a reasonable challenge without appreciating the ramifications of the challenge that make it almost, stress almost, impossible to complete. THAT is my point. Unless the challenger believes they too are appointed by God almighty to write their own challenging work there is virtually no possibility that their writing will cover enough topics to constitute a meaningful challenge. So the challenge isnt really JUST to create a copy of the Quran, it is also to create a new religion with a new prophet at its source.
Now be realistic. How likely do you think that happening is?
If you think that it is unlikely then the challenge becomes almost meaningless to all but the believer who wouldnt dream of taking the challenge in the first place. Add to this the reality that people are not so easily led (due to modern educations systems in place) as during the time of Muhammad and you end up with what is virtually an impossible challenge. When you make a challenge so difficult to complete that almost no one can complete it then it isn't really a challenge at all. It's a safe bet.
kai
ragamuffin
Hi TashaN
thank you for the insight into what you think the challenge is. I have already come to the conclusion that the challenge can only be in Arabic , it makes sence as even an english version of the Quran itself is not equal to an Arabic one according to Muslims.
I also have come to the conclusion that the challenge is impossible because Muslims believe its impossible and only a Muslim could really judge it. after all its a Muslims holy scripture their the ones that believe it.
I dont see any arrogance in asking questions i found the whole subject quite interesting and confusing at the same time .
Heres the underlying thing for me TashaN you are a Muslim you beleive , thats great, but you cant ask me to produce something that would make you disbelieve, and than use it to reinforce your belief because it didn't.
you made a conscious choice to submit, you would have to make a conscious choice to do the opposite.
thank you for the insight into what you think the challenge is. I have already come to the conclusion that the challenge can only be in Arabic , it makes sence as even an english version of the Quran itself is not equal to an Arabic one according to Muslims.
I also have come to the conclusion that the challenge is impossible because Muslims believe its impossible and only a Muslim could really judge it. after all its a Muslims holy scripture their the ones that believe it.
I dont see any arrogance in asking questions i found the whole subject quite interesting and confusing at the same time .
Heres the underlying thing for me TashaN you are a Muslim you beleive , thats great, but you cant ask me to produce something that would make you disbelieve, and than use it to reinforce your belief because it didn't.
you made a conscious choice to submit, you would have to make a conscious choice to do the opposite.