The Debate of God.

[Thief]

For you to be able to say that, there must be a 'not-First' against which you can compare the 'First' to. What is the 'not-First'?

By labeling God 'the First', you have made him a duality. Are you aware of that?

Awareness!....Indeed!

And He said unto Moses....
Tell the people.... 'I am'.... and they, who understand will know whose law this is.

 

[godnotgod]

Awareness!....Indeed!

And He said unto Moses....
Tell the people.... 'I am'.... and they, who understand will know whose law this is.

God is 'First'; so what is' not-First'?

 

[Thief]

God is 'First'; so what is' not-First'?

'We' are not first.

 

[godnotgod]

'We' are not first.

You continue to split Reality into 'we' and 'God', creating divisions where none exist. It is because of these illusory divisions that you imagine you must now 'return' to God, when you have never been separated to begin with. This is just another form of self-seeking only to realize your own divine nature. It is part of the cosmic game of Hide and Seek that the divine nature is playing, hiding within all the forms of creation, and simultaneously playing all the parts.

"That which you are seeking is causing you to seek."

 

[Thief]

You continue to split Reality into 'we' and 'God', creating divisions where none exist. It is because of these illusory divisions that you imagine you must now 'return' to God, when you have never been separated to begin with. This is just another form of self-seeking only to realize your own divine nature. It is part of the cosmic game of Hide and Seek that the divine nature is playing, hiding within all the forms of creation, and simultaneously playing all the parts.

"That which you are seeking is causing you to seek."

And 'you' continue to deny the obvious.
We are not as one.
Not with God....not with each other.
This topic thread displays it.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The 'you' is apparently separate only due to conscious self reference with a temporary created human body which functions in an apparent time flowing manner due to the perception and analysis of relative movement of matter in the three spatial dimensions in the presence of a local area of the space of the Eternal Infinite,...which is why this type of perceived dualistic reality is called maya.

The 'topic thread' displays this apparent separation of 'you' consciousness from God (i.e. all other than 'not you') because this is the karmic lot of all the apparent unenlightened, they don't know yet their underlying Divine nature.

Note carefully, 'I' accept my present non-enlightened nature as a temporary 'veil' that will effortlessly and simultaneously pass away with the 'unveiling' of the unspeakable glory of the non-duality of God, which comes about through ceaseless religious practice.

:namaste

 

[Thief]

The 'you' is apparently separate only due to conscious self reference with a temporary created human body which functions in an apparent time flowing manner due to the perception and analysis of relative movement of matter in the three spatial dimensions in the presence of a local area of the space of the Eternal Infinite,...which is why this type of perceived dualistic reality is called maya.

The 'topic thread' displays this apparent separation of 'you' consciousness from God (i.e. all other than 'not you') because this is the karmic lot of all the apparent unenlightened, they don't know yet their underlying Divine nature.

Note carefully, 'I' accept my present non-enlightened nature as a temporary 'veil' that will effortlessly and simultaneously pass away with the 'unveiling' of the unspeakable glory of the non-duality of God, which comes about through ceaseless religious practice.

:namaste

And when the clay stiffens it will break.
And what we have become stands up from the broken clay.

And we go back to God.

But I don't believe religion makes this happen.
I think you might agree.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

And when the clay stiffens it will break.
And what we have become stands up from the broken clay.

And we go back to God.

But I don't believe religion makes this happen.
I think you might agree.

The term 'religion' actually comes form Latin prefix 're' meaning 'again', and root 'ligio' meaning to 'tie' or 'connect', so it is essentially expressing the same thing as the Sanskrit term 'Yoga', i.e. union/reunion.

It follows then that when union/reunion is realized, there is no longer the perception of duality as that which sought is one with that which was sought.

So it is correct religious practice that is the appropriate way to realize Divine destiny. What is 'correct' religious practice?...any way whatsoever which actually leads to immortality!

 

[godnotgod]

And 'you' continue to deny the obvious.
We are not as one.
Not with God....not with each other.
This topic thread displays it.

What you refer to as 'the obvious' is actually the illusion of separateness from Reality, a separation you actually believe to be real, and upon which you erroneously act. All actions based on this illusory perception of Reality create even more illusions of separation, as well as to reinforce existing ones.

When you make God an object, you have already created the illusion of separation from the Infinite, where no such separation has ever existed, exists now, nor will ever exist, as that is an impossibility.

God is not an object.

There is no 'self or other'.

Thou art That.

Tas atvam asi.

 

[godnotgod]

And when the clay stiffens it will break.
And what we have become stands up from the broken clay.

And we go back to God.

You begin with the idea that we are 'clay'; that is to say, that we are something 'made'; an artifact, subject to creation and therefore, destruction, in addition to being separate from a 'Maker'.

But even in this concept, you have never been separate from God. The God-ness that is you was merely concealed from your own eyes within the form of the 'clay', all of which is an illusion to begin with. To realize this illusory state is to spiritually awaken to one's own true nature, which is none other than the Supreme Intelligence itself, and if YOU are IT, then where is there any 'return', if you are already there?

 

[Thief]

The term 'religion' actually comes form Latin prefix 're' meaning 'again', and root 'ligio' meaning to 'tie' or 'connect', so it is essentially expressing the same thing as the Sanskrit term 'Yoga', i.e. union/reunion.

It follows then that when union/reunion is realized, there is no longer the perception of duality as that which sought is one with that which was sought.

So it is correct religious practice that is the appropriate way to realize Divine destiny. What is 'correct' religious practice?...any way whatsoever which actually leads to immortality!

I see religion as a practice intended to bring a person 'back to God'.
But I see the dogmatic methods to be false.
So I have no ritual or recital of prayer.

Going back to God without a practice of hand or mouth?
I hope so.
Death insures I'm going 'somewhere'.
Would like to think it will be better in the next life.

I expect to retain my thoughts and feelings.
Not much pont in having lived a life only to lose all that I am.

But I also believe the next life has requirements.
Heaven is a place of peace.
Not all are allowed in.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I expect to retain my thoughts and feelings.
Not much point in having lived a life only to lose all that I am.

But I also believe the next life has requirements.
Heaven is a place of peace.
Not all are allowed in.

This Sufi piece from Rumi is a succinct way of explaining the obligatory pilgrimage of God through the cycle of incarnation and forgetfulness, to ultimately reunion with God.

So perhaps it is not appropriate to have preconceived ideas about retaining your present human conscious and emotional attributes, they may be a block to Heavenly union. Blessed are the humble who are prepared to sacrifice...

I died as a mineral and became a plant;
I died as a plant and rose to animal;
I died as an animal and I was a man.
Why should I fear?
When was I less by dying?
Yet once more I shall die as man to soar...
With angels blest.
But even from an angel I must pass on:
All except God must perish.
When I have sacrificed my angel soul,
I shall become what no mind ever conceived. -Jalaluddin Rumi

Concerning,..not all allowed in!

God is omnipresent, therefore any consciousness that conceives itself separate from God can't enter into God, even though from the Divine perspective, all is one, it is a self imposed exile. So it is the forgetfulness of what and who one really is that creates the perception of duality and thereby erects a mental barrier that prevents the revelation of God.

A house divided can not stand..;..:namaste

 

[godnotgod]

I see religion as a practice intended to bring a person 'back to God'.
But I see the dogmatic methods to be false.
So I have no ritual or recital of prayer.

Going back to God without a practice of hand or mouth?
I hope so.
Death insures I'm going 'somewhere'.
Would like to think it will be better in the next life.

I expect to retain my thoughts and feelings.
Not much pont in having lived a life only to lose all that I am.

But I also believe the next life has requirements.
Heaven is a place of peace.
Not all are allowed in.

Peace can only come when self-seeking and craving come to an end. This end, or extinguishing of the passions of craving, is called Enlightenment, or Nirvana. To continue to crave union with God is to be deluded, and therefore, to think oneself still separate from that which one seeks.

This extinguishing always occurs in this Present Moment, not in some future time and place. To imagine it to occur in some future time and place is to continue one's self-seeking craving for union with the divine. There is no peace in this craving/self-seeking.

 

[godnotgod]

Concerning,..not all allowed in!

God is omnipresent, therefore any consciousness that conceives itself separate from God can't enter into God, even though from the Divine perspective, all is one, it is a self imposed exile. So it is the forgetfulness of what and who one really is that creates the perception of duality and thereby erects a mental barrier that prevents the revelation of God.

Zen calls this illusory barrier of the mind 'The Gateless Gate'.

 

[Thief]

This Sufi piece from Rumi is a succinct way of explaining the obligatory pilgrimage of God through the cycle of incarnation and forgetfulness, to ultimately reunion with God.

So perhaps it is not appropriate to have preconceived ideas about retaining your present human conscious and emotional attributes, they may be a block to Heavenly union. Blessed are the humble who are prepared to sacrifice...

I died as a mineral and became a plant;
I died as a plant and rose to animal;
I died as an animal and I was a man.
Why should I fear?
When was I less by dying?
Yet once more I shall die as man to soar...
With angels blest.
But even from an angel I must pass on:
All except God must perish.
When I have sacrificed my angel soul,
I shall become what no mind ever conceived. -Jalaluddin Rumi

Concerning,..not all allowed in!

God is omnipresent, therefore any consciousness that conceives itself separate from God can't enter into God, even though from the Divine perspective, all is one, it is a self imposed exile. So it is the forgetfulness of what and who one really is that creates the perception of duality and thereby erects a mental barrier that prevents the revelation of God.

A house divided can not stand..;..:namaste

How odd.....
You quote to length and discussion a progression.....
and then deny the consequence of it,

Mental barriers?...yes you have.
It's called denial.

The progression you quoted is fine....but you need to change the concept of dying.

I was never a plant.....the substance of my body was.
This form is a means of generating a unique spirit.
The chemiswtry is terminal....not the soul.

When this form fails heaven will come to see what stands from the dust.
The barriers you mentioned could be there....
God can be disappointed.

As an assembly there is the potential of being...disassembled.
Only then is dying adrressed as dying.

There is the possiblity of suffering the presence of others that make enial.
Some people call that...hell.

Indeed!...a house divided cannot stand!

 

[Thief]

Peace can only come when self-seeking and craving come to an end. This end, or extinguishing of the passions of craving, is called Enlightenment, or Nirvana. To continue to crave union with God is to be deluded, and therefore, to think oneself still separate from that which one seeks.

This extinguishing always occurs in this Present Moment, not in some future time and place. To imagine it to occur in some future time and place is to continue one's self-seeking craving for union with the divine. There is no peace in this craving/self-seeking.

Craving the presence of your Creator is natural.
You feel it because your ARE separate.

But to think that all manner of craving fails when your body fails is false.
God craved the presence of someone else.
So now we are here with the potential to fulfill that craving.

God the creator alone in His creation?

Or would you undo Him as well?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

How odd.....
You quote to length and discussion a progression.....
and then deny the consequence of it,

Mental barriers?...yes you have.
It's called denial.

The progression you quoted is fine....but you need to change the concept of dying.

I was never a plant.....the substance of my body was.
This form is a means of generating a unique spirit.
The chemiswtry is terminal....not the soul.

When this form fails heaven will come to see what stands from the dust.
The barriers you mentioned could be there....
God can be disappointed.

As an assembly there is the potential of being...disassembled.
Only then is dying adrressed as dying.

There is the possiblity of suffering the presence of others that make enial.
Some people call that...hell.

Indeed!...a house divided cannot stand!

My words are used as an expedient to 'point' to the non-dual reality, they serve no other value as they are mere temporary mental constructions. They are not meant to imply any salvation, union, ascension, etc., through belief.

It is difficult for me to understand what your words above are meant to 'point' to in the context of the realization of God, but what ever it is, if that is your belief, so be it,...all the best! :namaste

 

[godnotgod]

Craving the presence of your Creator is natural.

But the mind which craves is not in a condition to understand that which it is craving, even if it could have it all right now! That is why craving must come to an end before any union with the divine nature can be realized. Craving is what continues to maintain the illusion of separation between man and God. Awakening dispels craving and allows one to see clearly that no separation ever existed to begin with.

You say craving is natural. Is, then, the mind of non-craving unnatural? Perhaps you have things backwards.

You feel it because your ARE separate.

No, because you think yourself separate. Show me where you begin and God leaves off.

But to think that all manner of craving fails when your body fails is false.
God craved the presence of someone else.
So now we are here with the potential to fulfill that craving.

God the creator alone in His creation?

Or would you undo Him as well?

But don't you see? That 'someone else' is none other than He himself! In other words, God had to convince himself so thoroughly that he was someone other than who he is, that he was, in fact, not-God, in order to play the Cosmic Game of Hide and Seek. That 'someone else' is you and I, and everything in the universe down to the smallest particle.

You are God pretending to be someone called 'Thief' who is pretending that he must 'stand up from the dust' in order to be re-united with the Source from which he never was separate from the very beginning!

You play a great game of Hide and Seek with yourself. First you hide in 'Thief'; then you forget who it was that was doing the hiding, firmly believing Thief to be the real McCoy, when Thief is nothing more than a total fraud, an ego dragging around his corpse! Just One Big Act!

"The universe IS the Absolute as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"
Vivikenanda

 

[Thief]

But the mind which craves is not in a condition to understand that which it is craving, even if it could have it all right now! That is why craving must come to an end before any union with the divine nature can be realized. Craving is what continues to maintain the illusion of separation between man and God. Awakening dispels craving and allows one to see clearly that no separation ever existed to begin with.

You say craving is natural. Is, then, the mind of non-craving unnatural? Perhaps you have things backwards.


No, because you think yourself separate. Show me where you begin and God leaves off.

But don't you see? That 'someone else' is none other than He himself! In other words, God had to convince himself so thoroughly that he was someone other than who he is, that he was, in fact, not-God, in order to play the Cosmic Game of Hide and Seek. That 'someone else' is you and I, and everything in the universe down to the smallest particle.

You are God pretending to be someone called 'Thief' who is pretending that he must 'stand up from the dust' in order to be re-united with the Source from which he never was separate from the very beginning!

You play a great game of Hide and Seek with yourself. First you hide in 'Thief'; then you forget who it was that was doing the hiding, firmly believing Thief to be the real McCoy, when Thief is nothing more than a total fraud, an ego dragging around his corpse! Just One Big Act!

"The universe IS the Absolute as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation"
Vivikenanda

And if you reaaly believe your last post.....
you would see that it is essential for God to have good company....
even if it be only a Thief.

separate from God? ....yes I am...so are you....

If not, then this discussion would not even exist.

 

[Knock.Knock]

seems like there would be enough proof since your able to wake up and breathe