The Debate of God.

[BSM1]

"

Sleepy prions pop angry racket sandwich, always right-side-up and sprinkle the air salty."

Wasn't this out of a Bob Dylan song?

 

[Anatta]

"Wasn't this out of a Bob Dylan song?

Yes it was. Have you seen Bob lately?

Fileresident Barack Obama presents American musician Bob Dylan with a Medal of Freedom.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[godnotgod]

You were nothing before you were born.
Not even chemistry.

Something had to have been present or your birth could not have occurred. What was that something?

You can't get out of your body now.
What makes you think you will do so when you die?

That same something knew it would be bound to the flesh before birth and accepted it willingly for the privilege of becoming flesh-infused consciousness. Only those who forgot their choice to do so would think of escape. The key to happiness lies not in escape from the flesh, which is impossible, as you say, but in full acceptance of being in it at this very moment. That is liberation. Only then is it realized that flesh and spirit are one. Only then is the statement: 'and the Word became Flesh' fully understood. Until that is understood, you will be nothing more than a bundle of imaginary conflict, in the illusion of spirit against flesh, as you are, in your absolute terror of the thought of going down into the cold ground in total darkness.

Conquer your fear, Thief, and free yourself from the grave in your own mind.

"In a single blow, I have crushed the cave of phantoms"
Zen source

 

[Thief]

Something had to have been present or your birth could not have occurred. What was that something?

God and heaven.

That same something knew it would be bound to the flesh before birth and accepted it willingly for the privilege of becoming flesh-infused consciousness. Only those who forgot their choice to do so would think of escape. The key to happiness lies not in escape from the flesh, which is impossible, as you say, but in full acceptance of being in it at this very moment. That is liberation. Only then is it realized that flesh and spirit are one. Only then is the statement: 'and the Word became Flesh' fully understood. Until that is understood, you will be nothing more than a bundle of imaginary conflict, in the illusion of spirit against flesh, as you are, in your absolute terror of the thought of going down into the cold ground in total darkness.

And now you call upon Christian dogma?

Conquer your fear, Thief, and free yourself from the grave in your own mind.

"In a single blow, I have crushed the cave of phantoms"
Zen source

Poor assumption on your part.
You don't know what I fear.

Try fearing God as you stand before Him.
Everything you have ever pronounced is on record.
You are your own 'book'.
Christian dogma?...such as the books of life shall be opened.

Some will be cast into the fire.

 

[Looncall]

Duelling superstitions! How entertaining. opcorn:

 

[Disciple of Christ]

Looncall, I notice you say you have no religion, can I assume you are atheistic or maybe agnostic?

 

[Disciple of Christ]

BSM1,Buddheo-Christian, new to the site here and am curious to your religious belief. Please forgive my jumping in here, but I'd like to know what the basis is for your reasoning.

 

[Looncall]

Looncall, I notice you say you have no religion, can I assume you are atheistic or maybe agnostic?

You may consider me high on the atheist end of the scale. While I do not think one can demonstrate the non-existence of deities, I have never met with a convincing argument supporting their existence. On that basis, I proceed as if there are no god(s) until I find reason to think otherwise.

I find religion to be dangerous to humanity and I consider that in its origins, and in current practice, it is mainly a scam that uses ancient errors to empower and enrich religious authorities.

On this forum, I try to provide a balance by questioning unsupported ideas.

 

[godnotgod]

Poor assumption on your part.
You don't know what I fear.

Try fearing God as you stand before Him.
Everything you have ever pronounced is on record.
You are your own 'book'.
Christian dogma?...such as the books of life shall be opened.

Some will be cast into the fire.

That's what you have been led to believe and to fear. Once again, you are driven by a system of reward and punishment, in which the the so-called 'deserving' get their little reward, while the so-called 'undeserving' get their just deserts. Ho hum.. just another form of the game of spiritual pride and shadow projection, designed to make your ego feel superior to others.

'Jesus and Hitler and Richard the Lion Heart
Three kings and Moses and Queen Cleopatra
The cobbler, the maiden
The mender and the maker
The sickener and the twitcher
And the glad undertaker
The shepherd of willows
The harper and the archer
All sat down in one boat together
Troubled voyage in calm weather.'

It is all just One Big Act, God pretending to be all of them, including the atheists, wherein God is pretending not to know that he is God. The plot thickens.

 

[godnotgod]

Originally Posted by godnotgod
Something had to have been present or your birth could not have occurred. What was that something?

God and heaven.

Which Yeshu told you was 'within', correct?

That same something knew it would be bound to the flesh before birth and accepted it willingly for the privilege of becoming flesh-infused consciousness. Only those who forgot their choice to do so would think of escape. The key to happiness lies not in escape from the flesh, which is impossible, as you say, but in full acceptance of being in it at this very moment. That is liberation. Only then is it realized that flesh and spirit are one. Only then is the statement: 'and the Word became Flesh' fully understood. Until that is understood, you will be nothing more than a bundle of imaginary conflict, in the illusion of spirit against flesh, as you are, in your absolute terror of the thought of going down into the cold ground in total darkness.

And now you call upon Christian dogma?

That particular doctrine is not Christian; it comes to the West via Eastern wisdom.

 

[Thief]

That's what you have been led to believe and to fear. Once again, you are driven by a system of reward and punishment, in which the the so-called 'deserving' get their little reward, while the so-called 'undeserving' get their just deserts. Ho hum.. just another form of the game of spiritual pride and shadow projection, designed to make your ego feel superior to others.

'Jesus and Hitler and Richard the Lion Heart
Three kings and Moses and Queen Cleopatra
The cobbler, the maiden
The mender and the maker
The sickener and the twitcher
And the glad undertaker
The shepherd of willows
The harper and the archer
All sat down in one boat together
Troubled voyage in calm weather.'

It is all just One Big Act, God pretending to be all of them, including the atheists, wherein God is pretending not to know that he is God. The plot thickens.

No fear....cause and effect.

What if you had to talk to yourself as you do with me.....forever.

Think you can empty your mind and be...something?

Or are you intent on becoming...nothing?

 

[godnotgod]

No fear....cause and effect.

You're still tearing the rice paper, grasshoppa! No cause...no effect.

What if you had to talk to yourself as you do with me.....forever.

Think you can empty your mind and be...something?

Or are you intent on becoming...nothing?

I am intent on not-becoming.

godnotgod: not born; not dead.

 

[Thief]

You're still tearing the rice paper, grasshoppa! No cause...no effect.



I am intent on not-becoming.

godnotgod: not born; not dead.

Intent on not becoming.....
So be it.

 

[godnotgod]

Intent on not becoming.....
So be it.

Right. That which does not become cannot un-become.

That which is Unborn cannot die.

That which already is does not need to become. I AM.

You have become what you imagine yourself to be, a separate self and so, having undergone birth, you must die.

Becoming is the illusion you have bought into, but have forgotten that it is an illusion, and so, you mistake the illusion of a separate self as reality, a separate self that was born, and so, must die and 'stand up from the dust' in order to be 're-united' with the Source you only imagine yourself separate from, and round and round you go, chasing your own tail. Only Awakening will dissolve the false self that is convinced of its separation from the Source, a separation that is as unreal as any separation of a wave from the sea it emerged from.

There is no separate 'wave' that becomes; there is only the Source in the act of waving.

 

[cottage]

OK. I'll try to have a conversation with you.

Firstly, what is meant here by 'Absolute', is a condition or state which has no opposite. It is not a relative state, such as relative joy and relative sorrow, or good and evil, for example.

What you describe is just an ages-old, common or garden metaphysical theory that goes under a variety of names but comes down to the same thing in all cases: a concept of necessary being. And there is not the slightest reason, human vanity and an obsessive disposition apart, to believe that such a thing is true, never mind being discoverable from faith alone.

In our ordinary reality, the world is made up of separate 'things', which are relative to one another. But it is in this very relationship that they are NOT separate things, but together all make up just one single reality, to which there is no comparison.

By your very own argument there are separate things, for without them you have no argument and no case to make. At least God-belief is coherent in describing an external cause to contingent being, whereas your theory runs into the buffers immediately by claiming that the Absolute is necessary, which it cannot be if contingent parts are contained within it. Do you see the problem? You are stating that there is something that doesn’t have to be that is enabled by something that cannot fail to be - while saying they are the same thing! Your ‘Absolute’ isn’t absolute at all! For even the most intellectually challenged and irreligious among us can conceive of the phenomenal world as never existing before it began to exist, which would at least admit the possibility of a prior necessary condition, even if the conception is shot down by the present fact, but your own speculation is stuck hook, line and sinker with the phenomenal world. In plain language it is possible to conceive of an absolute or necessary condition but which is not forced to acknowledge in any way a contingent existence, and it is self-evident that such a concept isn’t merely superior to your speculation: it renders it impossible.

Secondly, it is independent of the phenomenal world, or the universe as manifested or created. So, if the phenomenal world as we know it, including ourselves, were to vanish altogether in the next moment, is there something against which it is manifested, ie; a background, or field, which is a constant, a something that is a no-thing, that has no beginning or end; that is 'always so'.

That is pure conjecture, which leads straight to the absurdity again: for if the phenomenal or universe is manifested or created then it is an effect, and if the experiential world were to disappear in an instant then by your own argument it is a phenomenon that must answer to the Absolute, which is contradictory twice over.

As for 'making sense', it is oxymoronic to expect the rational mind, which encapsulates what it knows via concept and idea, to 'make sense' of that which is beyond such encapsulation. It has been said that the only way one can speak of the Absolute is in negative terms, since any positive description is such an encapsulation.

Ahem! The ‘Absolute’ is a concept or idea, and one that you are constantly alluding to; and to describe a thing in negative terms is to employ the rational mind, since it is prescriptive and therefore subject to the principle of non-contradiction.

 

[Thief]

Right. That which does not become cannot un-become.

That which is Unborn cannot die.

That which already is does not need to become. I AM.

You have become what you imagine yourself to be, a separate self and so, having undergone birth, you must die.

Becoming is the illusion you have bought into, but have forgotten that it is an illusion, and so, you mistake the illusion of a separate self as reality, a separate self that was born, and so, must die and 'stand up from the dust' in order to be 're-united' with the Source you only imagine yourself separate from, and round and round you go, chasing your own tail. Only Awakening will dissolve the false self that is convinced of its separation from the Source, a separation that is as unreal as any separation of a wave from the sea it emerged from.

There is no separate 'wave' that becomes; there is only the Source in the act of waving.

Well at last I think I see the point of contention.
You're confusion perspective with reality.

No two people see anything the same way.
God made us this way...on purpose.
Each one is unique.

We are separate....that is what makes us unique...and interesting.
If we all have the same perspective...exactly...there would be no difference in my speech as compared to yours.

That condition would be similar to God....splitting His thoughts and feelings like an one cell organism...and then talking to Himself.

And with more than 6billion copies...each one becoming a unique person....
It seems....you don't get it.

 

[godnotgod]

Well at last I think I see the point of contention.
You're confusion perspective with reality.

No two people see anything the same way.
God made us this way...on purpose.
Each one is unique.

We are separate....that is what makes us unique...and interesting.
If we all have the same perspective...exactly...there would be no difference in my speech as compared to yours.

That condition would be similar to God....splitting His thoughts and feelings like an one cell organism...and then talking to Himself.

And with more than 6billion copies...each one becoming a unique person....
It seems....you don't get it.

Each wave is a unique FORM, but all are made of WATER. What has occurred is that we have forgotten our common nature, and have focused on the superficial DIFFERENCES. When you turn your attention away from the false idea of a unique separate self, and look deeper inward, you will see unmistakably that you are the same as everyone else, and that your TRUE nature is the same as that of the universal divine nature.

What makes you think we are separate is an illusion.

There are many lamps, but only one light.

 

[Looncall]

Each wave is a unique FORM, but all are made of WATER. What has occurred is that we have forgotten our common nature, and have focused on the superficial DIFFERENCES. When you turn your attention away from the false idea of a unique separate self, and look deeper inward, you will see unmistakably that you are the same as everyone else, and that your TRUE nature is the same as that of the universal divine nature.

What makes you think we are separate is an illusion.

There are many lamps, but only one light.

What objective evidence do you have that this is true?

 

[godnotgod]

If we all have the same perspective...exactly...there would be no difference in my speech as compared to yours.

We have different perspectives because of differences in our social indoctrinations and overall histories. When these temporal accretions are transcended, our universal nature is exactly the same. In fact, you and I would see exactly the same reality without them. Why should we see it differently? Having said that, we might comment on the same reality in different ways, but that does not change the fact that reality is one, and we would see it as such if our vision were not distorted by personal views.

 

[Thief]

We have different perspectives because of differences in our social indoctrinations and overall histories. When these temporal accretions are transcended, our universal nature is exactly the same. In fact, you and I would see exactly the same reality without them. Why should we see it differently? Having said that, we might comment on the same reality in different ways, but that does not change the fact that reality is one, and we would see it as such if our vision were not distorted by personal views.

Still seeking to lose 'yourself'....I see.

And if you persist, you probably will.
And then as if you were never born...no one ever think about you...ever.
Oblivion.

So the breath you have been given and the life you have lived was a wasted effort.
No point that you ever did exist.
You seem intent on dropping everything.

And apparently you will.