The Destruction of America

[Trailblazer]

Jesus replies in Mat 24:27

"For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

That is exactly how Baha'u'llah came, from the East.

1. The king from the sunrise

Bahá’u’lláh came from Persia, which is to the East of Israel, but to the west of India. His ministry from the time of its beginning until his last days on earth was forty years. The prophets of Syria and Palestine foretold the coming of the promised Messiah from the East. The prophets and seers from India and the Far East, said that he would appear in the West. Persia, the birthplace of Bahá’u’lláh lies in between these two, and fulfils the requirements of each.

In the book of Enoch, it is prophesied that the Messiah of the last days shall come from the East of Israel, and that He shall come from the land now known as Persia. Enoch foretells:“And in those days the angels will assemble, and turn their heads towards the East, toward the people of Parthia and Medea, in order to excite the kings, and that a spirit of disturbance came over them, and disturbed them from off their thrones.” (Enoch 56:5). Parthia and Medea make up what is now the land of Persia, the birthplace of Bahá’u’lláh. The Jewish oracles, the Sibylline books, also mention the coming of the Messiah from the East, saying:

“And then from the sunrise God shall send a king who shall give every land relief from the bane of war … nor shall he do these things by his own counsel, but in obedience to the good ordinances of the Mighty God.” (cited in The Messianic idea in Israel, p. 376).

Joseph Klausner, in The Messianic idea in Israel, writes: “The ‘king from the sunrise’ is, without any doubt, the King-Messiah.”

The prophet Ezekiel also foretold that the Messiah would come to the Holy Land, Israel, from the East. He even gave the title by which He would be known in that day: The Glory of God [or the Glory of the Lord]. Ezekiel recorded his vision of the last days, saying:“And behold, the Glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east…” (Ezekiel 43:2).

In another place, Ezekiel says: “And the Glory of the Lord came into the house by way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.”(Ezekiel 43:4).

I had already learned that the name Bahá’u’lláh was Persian, and when translated into English means, The Glory of God or The Glory of the Lord.His herald was called the Báb. This is also Persian, and translated into English means, The Gate.

The Báb was the Gate by which Bahá’u’lláh, the Glory of God, entered into the hearts of men. Bahá’u’lláh had come to Israel in exile from Persia which is to the East. I was more than satisfied by my findings. I learned that Bahá’u’lláh had completed the prophesies of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Micah, Zoroaster, Buddha, Muhammad, and many secular prophesies as well—all of which pointed to the time and the place from which the Shepherd of the day of the ‘one fold’ would come.

I marked the first proof: Fulfilled.

William Sears, Thief in the Night, pp. 109-111

 

[Trailblazer]

What Bible do you read? There's plenty of condemnations (no love) for the wicked in Judaism.

Tell me: What's the name of the place in Daniel 12:2 where people awake from the dead and find themselves in a place of "shame and everlasting contempt"??

Dan 12:2 - "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

That has nothing to do with what I was saying. Unless Christians want to say that non-Christians are also saved, my statement that Christians exclude two thirds of the world population with their doctrine of salvation still stands.

 

[Spartan]

That has nothing to do with what I was saying. Unless Christians want to say that non-Christians are also saved, my statement that Christians exclude two thirds of the world population with their doctrine of salvation still stands.

One more time.

There's plenty of condemnations (no love) for the wicked in Judaism.

Tell me: What's the name of the place in Daniel 12:2 where people awake from the dead and find themselves in a place of "shame and everlasting contempt"??

Dan 12:2 - "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

 

[Spartan]

That is exactly how Baha'u'llah came, from the East.

I don't buy into Baha'u'llah. I'll stick with the Old and New Testaments.

 

[Spartan]

There is no reason to assume the Son of Man refers to Jesus and every reason to assume it does not refer to Jesus, since none of the "Son of Man in the clouds" verses are written in the first person, always in the third person. And of course we also have Jesus saying His work was finished here and He was no more in the world (John 17:4, John 17:11). Christians cannot bring Jesus back by hoping He will come back.

The title ‘Son of man’ is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented, but it does not apply exclusively to Jesus. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah. It is a Baha’i teaching that the title applies to both Jesus and Baha’u’llah.

I'll stick with the Gospels and New Testament. You can have Baha'u'llah, whom Jesus never spoke about or prophesied about.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'll stick with the Gospels and New Testament. You can have Baha'u'llah, whom Jesus never spoke about or prophesied about.

Jesus certainly did speak about Baha'u'llah, in John 14, 15 and 16, whenever He referred to the Comforter and the Spirit of truth who He would send from the Father.

John 16 King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't buy into Baha'u'llah. I'll stick with the Old and New Testaments.

Your choice, but if you stick with the Old and New Testaments, you would know that Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies for the return of Christ: William Sears, Thief in the Night

 

[Daemon Sophic]

Uh....
How did the discussion of the United States of America’s downfall become a debate about Abrahamic scripture??

Get a room you two. Or better yet, create a thread.

 

[CG Didymus]

There is no reason to believe that the Lamb in the Book of Revelation is Jesus because Jesus has not returned and Jesus never promised to return, not once in the NT.

I'm still waiting for an "official" Baha'i answer as to who the Lamb is? You say it can't be Jesus because he hasn't returned and never promised to return. Fine, then who is the Lamb?

If their is still no "official" Baha'i answer, then I will have to say it is still Jesus. And, since this Lamb is the one who is returning, then Revelation at least implies that it is Jesus that is coming back. But, like Baha'is say, his body is dead and gone. And the bodies of all dead people have turned to dust. 2000 years ago they might have believed in a literal resurrection and that Jesus rose, but today only a few Christians believe that. Then why make Jesus and Christianity into a true messenger and a true religion of God? There is nothing true about them. Unless, of all things Jesus does come back and people do come out of their graves, then we still have a problem... Who was Baha'u'llah and the religion he brought? There will be nothing true about him and his religion. Either way, one of the religions is full of %^&#. I know, I know, you don't really reject Jesus or his "original" teachings. You just reject most everything that his followers said and believe about him.

 

[CG Didymus]

You're darn tootin' !
And it will happen because it was prophesied and ordained by God.

Nothing has ever come true as prophesied? But now it will? God made promises to the Jews... They are coming out as planned. God made promises to the Christians? Nope, they misunderstood everything. Just great. God is so wonderful. So wonderfully lying. Except the Baha'is blame the people. But... are the verses wrong? Or are they just misinterpreted? Or, are they both written down wrong, therefore, they were wrong to begin with, and on top of that, misinterpreted?

I keep saying that there is still a chance that the Christians are right, because the bad things happen and then the Messiah comes. The Baha'is flip it around and say there were plenty of bad things that happened before Baha'u'llah came to have fulfilled the prophecies about calamities and things happening prior to his coming. And bad things continue to happen, because the peace and harmony he brought isn't something that happens immediately. It slowly happens. Yup, thanks God for misleading people into thinking when Messiah comes everything will be made new. No, it will get worse before it gets better. And that was not what God promised to the Christians and probably to the Jews too. Conquered sin and death? Bull. Defeated the devil? Bull. When he returns the New Jerusalem will be lit by the light of God and the Lamb? Bull. But with the promises made by God through Baha'u'llah, we can say... "You're darn tootin'"?

 

[CG Didymus]

When God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, which son was he told to sacrifice? It was not Ishmael. The promise God made to Abraham was to come to completion through Isaac and his son Jacob. Jesus was Jewish and no other people were involved in the production of their Messiah. Jesus was not just a human prophet....he was “the son of God” in the truest sense of the term...
Who do Baha’i’s believe that Jesus was? How does Islam even factor into this equation?

You do know that the Baha'i Faith teaches the Ishmael was taken by Abraham to be sacrificed, not Isaac? And I think they have some genealogical charts that show how their prophet is related to all the right people in Judaism. And, they believe Jesus was a "manifestation of God" like Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Buddha, Muhammad, Zoroaster, and their prophets. And, since Muhammad was the next manifestation after Jesus, and dictated the Quran, Baha'is say it is more accurate than the Bible. And then, of course, Baha'u'llah wrote some things himself, so they are way more accurate than the Bible.

Bahaullah could not be Christ returned because the world is still full of the kind of people that Jesus said he would dispatch. The Kingdom of God was not to be established passively or through human agencies, but with a display of great power. Daniel foresaw the establishment of that Kingdom....telling us that in the days of the present world powers, God would bring in his Kingdom to “crush” all human rulership out of existence and replace them. (Daniel 2:44)

I ask them all the time about how all the bad stuff ends when Christ returns. They are talking about the destruction of America? Revelation sounds like God nearly destroys the whole world and all the people in it, then... Christ returns.

The thing that I most object to with the Baha’i Faith is their use of the Bible to support their beliefs, when so much of what the Bible teaches eliminates them completely from being part of God’s solution. Those parts of the Bible are never discussed. And when they are, they are conveniently dismissed or reinterpreted.

Exactly. Yet, somehow, they say all the Scriptures of all the major religions came from the one true God. But the Scriptures they really mean are the mysterious "original" teachings. In those, they all teach about the one true God.

What Bible do you read?

They believe they have the correct interpretation of things in the Bible. Here's Abdul Baha talking about the resurrection.

Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.​

I like a lot of things about the Baha'i Faith, but the worst thing about them is how they force all religions to be what they say they are. And once they've done that, then they can honestly say that "All religions are one." Yes, because they have made them all into what they want them to be. After the Baha'i Faith gets done with Christianity, I see no point into why there ever was a Christianity. And yet, they can show you verse after verse about how their prophets just love Jesus and Christianity... It's just all the things Christianity believes in are pretty much wrong.

 

[Trailblazer]

Uh....
How did the discussion of the United States of America’s downfall become a debate about Abrahamic scripture??

Get a room you two. Or better yet, create a thread.

I am kind of an investigator type, so I went back and looked to see when this thread derailed.
Here is the post where it started. The Bible says….

InvestigateTruth said: Sometimes I feel we still have a long way to go, before the unity is established.

Deeje said: Is that because you think it has to come through the efforts of man? The Bible says it will come through Christ establishing his Kingdom rulership on earth. Its a direct intervention because unless God steps in as he says he will, sending Jesus as judge and ordering a cleansing of this earth of every vestige of failed human rulership, nothing will change....it hasn't for thousands of years.....humans are still hating and killing each other. All that changes is the characters and scenes where these actors play their part.

#26 Deeje, Tuesday at 9:31 PM

 

[Spartan]

You do know that the Baha'i Faith teaches the Ishmael was taken by Abraham to be sacrificed, not Isaac? And I think they have some genealogical charts that show how their prophet is related to all the right people in Judaism. And, they believe Jesus was a "manifestation of God" like Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Buddha, Muhammad, Zoroaster, and their prophets. And, since Muhammad was the next manifestation after Jesus, and dictated the Quran, Baha'is say it is more accurate than the Bible. And then, of course, Baha'u'llah wrote some things himself, so they are way more accurate than the Bible.

I ask them all the time about how all the bad stuff ends when Christ returns. They are talking about the destruction of America? Revelation sounds like God nearly destroys the whole world and all the people in it, then... Christ returns.

Exactly. Yet, somehow, they say all the Scriptures of all the major religions came from the one true God. But the Scriptures they really mean are the mysterious "original" teachings. In those, they all teach about the one true God.

They believe they have the correct interpretation of things in the Bible. Here's Abdul Baha talking about the resurrection.

Therefore, we say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.​

I like a lot of things about the Baha'i Faith, but the worst thing about them is how they force all religions to be what they say they are. And once they've done that, then they can honestly say that "All religions are one." Yes, because they have made them all into what they want them to be. After the Baha'i Faith gets done with Christianity, I see no point into why there ever was a Christianity. And yet, they can show you verse after verse about how their prophets just love Jesus and Christianity... It's just all the things Christianity believes in are pretty much wrong.

I don't give any credibility to the Baha'i Faith. I'll stick with Biblical Christianity.

The Religion of Baha'i

 

[CG Didymus]

Unless He was a liar Jesus will not return because He said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world.

And did Jesus write that? No. Did the things about what Jesus said and did get passed down by oral traditions? Probably. Do Baha'is constantly complain about Christians taking verses in the Bible too literally? Yes. Then why do you take just a few verses very literally but others you don't?

There is really no way around those verses unless you want to call into question the accuracy of the Bible, but if you do that, how many other verses in the Bible might also be inaccurate?

And do Baha'is take the Bible as wholly authentic? No.

Come on now, Baha'is find ways around all sorts of contradictory verses and have no problem doing it. Like when the risen Jesus talks to the disciples and eats with them and tells one of them to touch him... that he is not a ghost but has flesh and bone. No way around that, right. Jesus must have come back to life and has some kind of flesh and bone body, right? Wrong. Baha'is do get around that. They say Jesus didn't come back to life. There is no such thing as a literal resurrection. Our prophets said so and they don't lie. Therefore, what they say is true and the Bible is full of it.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm still waiting for an "official" Baha'i answer as to who the Lamb is? You say it can't be Jesus because he hasn't returned and never promised to return. Fine, then who is the Lamb?

If their is still no "official" Baha'i answer, then I will have to say it is still Jesus.

There is no 'official' Bahai answer that I know of since it is not addressed in the authoritative Writings of the Baha'i Faith.... So now you are free to join the Christians and wait for Jesus.

 

[CG Didymus]

I don't give any credibility to the Baha'i Faith. I'll stick with Biblical Christianity.

The Religion of Baha'i

One thing that a Hindu friend tells the Baha'is... "very different paradigms." Same thing here. Christians have saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Baha'is have more of a "works" system. All people will go on to a spiritual world, but some, depending on how good they were, will be at a higher level. There's no concept of hell like in Christianity, so, I guess, even the very wicked will be somewhere in the spiritual world, but at a very low place. But, I think, the Baha'is believe that even they will be able to advance from there.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nothing has ever come true as prophesied? But now it will?

It is happening right now.

“This question of the union of the white and the black is very important,” He warns, “for if it is not realized, erelong great difficulties will arise, and harmful results will follow.” “If this matter remaineth without change,” is yet another warning, “enmity will be increased day by day, and the final result will be hardship and may end in bloodshed.”

The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 39

Well, now we can see that what Baha'u'llah warned us about 150 years ago has come to pass. This has ended in hardship and bloodshed because the equality of the human race was never addressed. Sad as I am over what is happening a part of me is happy to see that people are finally standing up for what is right. I don't like the violence but many of these protests are peaceful and these people do not feel there is any other way to change the system.

 

[Trailblazer]

I keep saying that there is still a chance that the Christians are right, because the bad things happen and then the Messiah comes.

Got any verses that say that?

 

[Trailblazer]

Come on now, Baha'is find ways around all sorts of contradictory verses and have no problem doing it.

It is the Christians who try to find ways around contradictory verses but you are gunning for the Baha'is as usual.
Why don't you just become a Christians and call it a say?
Or maybe it is more fun for you to play on both sides of the fence.

 

[CG Didymus]

There is no 'official' Bahai answer that I know of since it is not addressed in the authoritative Writings of the Baha'i Faith.... So now you are free to join the Christians and wait for Jesus.

Who wants to join them? Besides, which sect? But, the point is... you can't blow off Jesus just yet. He still might be on his way... but he's on a horse, so it's going to take some time. And in their vision, things are going to get a lot worse before he shows up.

But as far as I can see, there is no reason not to believe the "Son of man", the "Lamb", and the "Lamb that was slain" all refer to Jesus. And, since it is the Lamb that opens up the scroll, sits at the right hand of God and is the one coming back, then that is Jesus and not Baha'u'llah.

So come on Baha'is all you need to do is come up with why Baha'u'llah is the Lamb. Revelation contains tons of prophecies about the return. You have to have some real answers. Instead of flaking things like the Three Woes or the Two Witnesses. What about that guy, Robert Riggs, that wrote a book about Revelation? I wonder what he says? Have ever looked at it?