The Destruction of America

[CG Didymus]

for a religion that says they believe all religions are one, Baha'is still cause a lot of division. How you going to bring the world together in peace when you can't even get spiritual/religious people to get along?

I do not see us causing division. HOW are we causing division?
Can you give me some examples? Evidence is everything.

Do you treat all people in all religions with love and respect? If you do, then your making things better. If not you are fanning the flames of division.

I would ask how the world will find Unity and Peace, without considering the Message given by Baha'u'llah?

The question was that here on the forum Baha'is are not doing a good job at bringing religions together. They are focusing on the differences and making the division grow. So how does a Baha'i fix that problem? Sure, you want to support and defend your beliefs, but at what cost? Too many here on the forum have had negative interactions with Baha'is. That's not going to lead to peace and unity between the different religions.

 

[CG Didymus]

In the book of Enoch, it is prophesied that the Messiah of the last days shall come from the East of Israel, and that He shall come from the land now known as Persia. Enoch foretells:“And in those days the angels will assemble, and turn their heads towards the East, toward the people of Parthia and Medea, in order to excite the kings, and that a spirit of disturbance came over them, and disturbed them from off their thrones.” (Enoch 56:5).

Is this the wrong Enoch? It doesn't match.

Chapter 56 [SECT. IX.]

1. I now began to utter the third parable, concerning the saints and the elect.

2. Blessed are ye, O saints and elect, for glorious is your lot.

3. The saints shall exist in the light of the sun, and the elect in the light of everlasting life, the days of whose life shall never terminate; nor shall the days of the saints be numbered, who seek for light, and obtain righteousness with the Lord of spirits.

4. Peace be to the saints with the Lord of the world.

5. Henceforward shall the saints be told to seek in heaven the secrets of righteousness, the portion of faith; for like the sun has it arisen upon the earth, while darkness has passed away. There shall be light interminable: nor shall they enter upon the enumeration of time; for darkness shall be previously destroyed, and light shall increase before the Lord of spirits; before the Lord of spirits shall the light of uprightness increase for ever.
​

 

[CG Didymus]

The prophet Ezekiel also foretold that the Messiah would come to the Holy Land, Israel, from the East. He even gave the title by which He would be known in that day: The Glory of God [or the Glory of the Lord]. Ezekiel recorded his vision of the last days, saying:“And behold, the Glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east…” (Ezekiel 43:2).

In another place, Ezekiel says: “And the Glory of the Lord came into the house by way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.”(Ezekiel 43:4).

Okay, and what is the context?

Ezekiel 43:5 Then the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court, and the glory of the LORD filled the temple.
6 While the man was standing beside me, I heard someone speaking to me from inside the temple.
7 He said: “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place for the soles of my feet. This is where I will live among the Israelites forever. The people of Israel will never again defile my holy name—neither they nor their kings—by their prostitution and the funeral offerings for their kings at their death.
8 When they placed their threshold next to my threshold and their doorposts beside my doorposts, with only a wall between me and them, they defiled my holy name by their detestable practices. So I destroyed them in my anger.
9 Now let them put away from me their prostitution and the funeral offerings for their kings, and I will live among them forever.
10 “Son of man, describe the temple to the people of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their sins. Let them consider its perfection,
11 and if they are ashamed of all they have done, make known to them the design of the temple—its arrangement, its exits and entrances—its whole design and all its regulations and laws. Write these down before them so that they may be faithful to its design and follow all its regulations.
12 “This is the law of the temple: All the surrounding area on top of the mountain will be most holy. Such is the law of the temple.
​

So, again, what makes two verses taken out of context a Messianic prophecy? Another problem... God had his "manifestations" but why did he have so many people Judaism that were prophets and in whom he had communication with either directly or through an angel?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

even if I did that would only be MY interpretation according to what I already KNOW that Baha'u'llah did.

That is exactly what the prophecy points to, so yes why would we be trying to see it in any other way?

Thus I think we have told CG quite often, that it is His choice of how he puts the puzzle together.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Jesus certainly did speak about Baha'u'llah, in John 14, 15 and 16, whenever He referred to the Comforter and the Spirit of truth who He would send from the Father.

John 16 King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 14:25“These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. 27Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.​

Jesus says in verse 28 that he is going away and coming back. You have said that Jesus never said he is coming back. So how do you interpret that verse?
In verse 26 the "Helper" or "Comforter" is identified as being the Holy Spirit. You say this is a prophecy about, not the next "return" of a manifestation, or even the next one after that, but of the third manifestation that comes after Jesus, Baha'u'llah.

Christians easily, since it is their Holy Book, tie these verse into what happened at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descends on them. Why are they wrong?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Buddhism has a lot of answers. The Mormons have a lot of answers. Have you looked into them? I doubt it. Why, because you like the answers you've found in the Baha'i Faith. Then, when I question things that have been said by Baha'u'llah, Abdul Baha', or Shoghi Effendi, you answer it as if it is automatically true... because they said. And they can't be wrong. When another religion says anything contrary to the beliefs of the Baha'i Faith, it is the other religion that is wrong. That is not believing all religions are one. That is believing that only the Baha'i Faith is correct in all things. And, when the Baha'i Faith says all religions are one, they mean in how Baha'is interpret those other religions.

How many years has Buddhists and Muslims and Christians had to bring the Most Great Peace?

Again all Faiths are from the same source, all that is in those Faiths, that were aimed at Love and Unity, inclusive for all Humanity, is embraced by the Baha'i teachings.

What predudices are holding people back of finding the oneness we all share?

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

It is happening right now.

“This question of the union of the white and the black is very important,” He warns, “for if it is not realized, erelong great difficulties will arise, and harmful results will follow.” “If this matter remaineth without change,” is yet another warning, “enmity will be increased day by day, and the final result will be hardship and may end in bloodshed.”

The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 39

Well, now we can see that what Baha'u'llah warned us about 150 years ago has come to pass. This has ended in hardship and bloodshed because the equality of the human race was never addressed. Sad as I am over what is happening a part of me is happy to see that people are finally standing up for what is right. I don't like the violence but many of these protests are peaceful and these people do not feel there is any other way to change the system.

But Sikhs taught all this way before the Baha'i Faith. I rarely, rarely hear a Baha'i say anything about the Sikhs. Why not? Are they not important to Baha'is?

The word “Sikh” means “Seeker of Truth." Sikhism originated in Northern India and is the world’s fifth-largest organized religion. There are more than 25 million Sikhs throughout the world and over half a million in the United States. Sikhism was founded 500 years ago when a man named Nanak walked the South Asian subcontinent teaching that all paths lead to one God, all people are equal, and each of us can experience freedom through loving and serving others.​

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you treat all people in all religions with love and respect? If you do, then your making things better. If not you are fanning the flames of division.

I do try to treat all people with love and respect, regardless of what they believe or disbelieve.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is exactly what the prophecy points to, so yes why would we be trying to see it in any other way?

Thus I think we have told CG quite often, that it is His choice of how he puts the puzzle together.

Regards Tony

The question was about who is the "Lamb" in Revelation?

I'm still waiting for an "official" Baha'i answer as to who the Lamb is? You say it can't be Jesus because he hasn't returned and never promised to return. Fine, then who is the Lamb?

I'm saying that the Lamb, the Son of Man, Christ, some guy on a white horse... somebody returns. The tribulations are over. He comes and gets rid of Satan and all the wicked people.

So, even if you believe the Lamb is Baha'u'llah, which will be difficult because it also says that the Lamb had been slain, then in Revelation... all the plagues and everything are going on and then the Lamb comes and does away with all the bad stuff. What's puzzling is how Baha'is can justify that nothing has changed, and things are getting worse. That doesn't fit the story of how things go down in Revelation. Trailblazer, as usual, dodges the question. Do you know who Baha'is believe this Lamb is? The Lamb is the final piece of the puzzle. I think that Revelation implies that the Lamb is Jesus. Baha'is, therefore, have to show that it is Baha'u'llah. Can you do that?

 

[Revoltingest]

A tree service company I know still can't get all it's employees
to return to work. Unemployment benefits are too generous.
Technically, employees who refuse work are ineligible, but
the state isn't doing anything about that.....yet.
They might be in for a rude awakening some day.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The question was that here on the forum Baha'is are not doing a good job at bringing religions together. They are focusing on the differences and making the division grow. So how does a Baha'i fix that problem? Sure, you want to support and defend your beliefs, but at what cost? Too many here on the forum have had negative interactions with Baha'is. That's not going to lead to peace and unity between the different religions

I see that I can not control that, nor do I want to. I am here and wish every person Love Happiness and Joy, so why do they choose another attitude when all we are doing is discussing the merits of Faith and the beliefs we hold? Either what they beleive will show fruition or it will not.

Let's test one belief about the finality of the Prophets, has that ever worked, did it attract people to a Faith?

How about a Trinity doctrine, did that work did that give solidarity to the people and embrace the world?

Baha'u'llah says all things are guided under God's plan for humanity and that is how I as a Baha'i can live in such peace and happiness in this world, no matter how much conflict there is.

How is it will peace comes from such injustices that are tearing humanity apart at this time?

How is it that Baha'u'llah said the long suffering of the Persian Baha'i in Iran, feeds the growth of the Faith in other areas?

All that Baha'u'llah has offered is rolling out, it is as predicted, how is it He knows the end game while we are only starting to play the game?

I am short of time at the moment, sorry for short lack of detail replies.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Is this the wrong Enoch? It doesn't match.

Chapter 56 [SECT. IX.]

1. I now began to utter the third parable, concerning the saints and the elect.

2. Blessed are ye, O saints and elect, for glorious is your lot.

3. The saints shall exist in the light of the sun, and the elect in the light of everlasting life, the days of whose life shall never terminate; nor shall the days of the saints be numbered, who seek for light, and obtain righteousness with the Lord of spirits.

4. Peace be to the saints with the Lord of the world.

5. Henceforward shall the saints be told to seek in heaven the secrets of righteousness, the portion of faith; for like the sun has it arisen upon the earth, while darkness has passed away. There shall be light interminable: nor shall they enter upon the enumeration of time; for darkness shall be previously destroyed, and light shall increase before the Lord of spirits; before the Lord of spirits shall the light of uprightness increase for ever.
​

Sorry, I cannot check that since the Book of Enoch was removed from the Bible:

Why was Book of Enoch removed from the Bible?

The Book of Enoch was considered as scripture in the Epistle of Barnabas (16:4) and by many of the early Church Fathers, such as Athenagoras, Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus and Tertullian, who wrote c. 200 that the Book of Enoch had been rejected by the Jews because it contained prophecies pertaining to Christ.
Book of Enoch - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

So, again, what makes two verses taken out of context a Messianic prophecy?

They are not taken out of context.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, even if you believe the Lamb is Baha'u'llah

I see the Lamb is all the Messengers.

In this dispensation is is very applicable to the Bab as and Independent Messenger he Gave his life for Baha'u'llah. He foretold of his own martyrdom so that Baha'u'llah could come to offer the Most Great Peace.

Thus I can say the Lamb is very applicable to both Christ and the Bab as an obvious sacrafice, but it applicable to all Messengers as they all give the same sacrafice, they give their life for the cause they offer us all.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

That is not believing all religions are one. That is believing that only the Baha'i Faith is correct in all things.

Sorry but that will not fly because there are many beliefs that we share in common, so I believe that other religions are correct in many of their beliefs

Out of context... Let's try this again.

When another religion says anything contrary to the beliefs of the Baha'i Faith, it is the other religion that is wrong. That is not believing all religions are one. That is believing that only the Baha'i Faith is correct in all things. And, when the Baha'i Faith says all religions are one, they mean in how Baha'is interpret those other religions.

The question is that when another religion has contradictory beliefs... Who is correct the Baha'i Faith or the other religion?

Baha'is do not believe all the things taught in other religions are true, Baha'is disagree with some of them and believe that what the Baha'i Faith says about those beliefs is what is true. Like the Ishmael vs. Isaac thing. Who's right? The Jews or Baha'is? Baha'is. With Jesus rising from the dead? Whose right the Christians or Baha'is? The Baha'is. With reincarnation? Whose right those Hindus that believe it is true or the Baha'is? The Baha'is. Yet, Baha'is teach that all religions are one? Sure, after Baha'is have "corrected" everything they disagree with in those other religions. Which is fine... if you're right. And how do we know if you are right or not without questioning you?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But Sikhs taught all this way before the Baha'i Faith. I rarely, rarely hear a Baha'i say anything about the Sikhs. Why not? Are they not important to Baha'is?

The word “Sikh” means “Seeker of Truth." Sikhism originated in Northern India and is the world’s fifth-largest organized religion. There are more than 25 million Sikhs throughout the world and over half a million in the United States. Sikhism was founded 500 years ago when a man named Nanak walked the South Asian subcontinent teaching that all paths lead to one God, all people are equal, and each of us can experience freedom through loving and serving others.​

I see The Sikh have the same choice the rest of the world faces.

I also see they have strong foundations in what Baha'u'llah offered. The transition as a united Humanity should be an easy step for them to achieve.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

They are not taken out of context.

Okay, and what is the context?
Ezekiel 43:5 Then the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court, and the glory of the LORD filled the temple.
6 While the man was standing beside me, I heard someone speaking to me from inside the temple.
7 He said: “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place for the soles of my feet. This is where I will live among the Israelites forever. The people of Israel will never again defile my holy name—neither they nor their kings—by their prostitution and the funeral offerings for their kings at their death.
8 When they placed their threshold next to my threshold and their doorposts beside my doorposts, with only a wall between me and them, they defiled my holy name by their detestable practices. So I destroyed them in my anger.
9 Now let them put away from me their prostitution and the funeral offerings for their kings, and I will live among them forever.
10 “Son of man, describe the temple to the people of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their sins. Let them consider its perfection,
11 and if they are ashamed of all they have done, make known to them the design of the temple—its arrangement, its exits and entrances—its whole design and all its regulations and laws. Write these down before them so that they may be faithful to its design and follow all its regulations.
12 “This is the law of the temple: All the surrounding area on top of the mountain will be most holy. Such is the law of the temple.

 

[CG Didymus]

I see the Lamb is all the Messengers.

In this dispensation is is very applicable to the Bab as and Independent Messenger he Gave his life for Baha'u'llah. He foretold of his own martyrdom so that Baha'u'llah could come to offer the Most Great Peace.

Thus I can say the Lamb is very applicable to both Christ and the Bab as an obvious sacrafice, but it applicable to all Messengers as they all give the same sacrafice, they give their life for the cause they offer us all.

Regards Tony

Okay, the Baha'is say that Muhammad was one of the Two Witnesses and the first of the Three Woes... that The Bab and Baha'u'llah were the next two Woes, but Baha'u'llah didn't say anything about the "Lamb"? Like I said, everything in Revelation makes it sound like the Lamb is Jesus. Anyway, I've got stuff to do too. I'll check back later. And thanks for doing your best to answer my questions.

 

[Trailblazer]

John 14:25“These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.​

Jesus says in verse 28 that he is going away and coming back. You have said that Jesus never said he is coming back. So how do you interpret that verse?

Jesus meant that His Spirit was going to come back in another person, not that His body was going to come back.

In verse 26 the "Helper" or "Comforter" is identified as being the Holy Spirit. You say this is a prophecy about, not the next "return" of a manifestation, or even the next one after that, but of the third manifestation that comes after Jesus, Baha'u'llah.

26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

It is all a matter of understanding what the verse above means....
The Father sent the Holy Spirit when He sent Baha'u'llah, and Baha'u'llah brought the Holy Spirit.

I believe it is about Baha'u'llah (and not Muhammad or the Bab) because Baha'u'llah claimed to be the Comforter, which means the same thing as the Helper.

Christians easily, since it is their Holy Book, tie these verse into what happened at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descends on them. Why are they wrong?

I know what Christians believe. I believe they are wrong, because they assumed that the Holy Spirit could only be sent once, at Pentecost. This is the Church teaching that they have come to accept as the truth.

I have explained this to you before but I saved that in a Word document, so here it is:

Acts 2:2-4 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have this:

Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

All of this happened before Baha’u’llah came

“As we look, we find the events recorded (in Revelation), following on in the order predicted.” (Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer, p. 77.) These events which he listed were as follows:

1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake
2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day
3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars

It is interesting to note that the great star-fall came on the night of 12 November, which is the birthday of Bahá’u’lláh.

Excerpts from: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Out of context... Let's try this again.

The question is that when another religion has contradictory beliefs... Who is correct the Baha'i Faith or the other religion?

Baha'is do not believe all the things taught in other religions are true, Baha'is disagree with some of them and believe that what the Baha'i Faith says about those beliefs is what is true. Like the Ishmael vs. Isaac thing. Who's right? The Jews or Baha'is? Baha'is. With Jesus rising from the dead? Whose right the Christians or Baha'is? The Baha'is. With reincarnation? Whose right those Hindus that believe it is true or the Baha'is? The Baha'is. Yet, Baha'is teach that all religions are one? Sure, after Baha'is have "corrected" everything they disagree with in those other religions. Which is fine... if you're right. And how do we know if you are right or not without questioning you?

The context is that we do beleive the other religious scriptures are true.

Baha'u'llah offered a different way at looking at them, a different frame of reference.

If you remember back in the great beings thread, well before now, I offer to Vinayaka that we look at Reincarnation in the light Baha'u'llah offered. That we can consider it in other ways.

Now as you have observed, if Baha'u'llah is as claimed, then the new way to look at things is correct.

Thus why I started a quandary thread not that long ago. How can we control if people want to see with a new frame of reference?

I see the Destruction of America is how people do see they need to look at life in different ways.

I will post some thoughts about what I see will happen in America in the coming years.

Regards Tony