The Destruction of America

[CG Didymus]

Got any verses that say that?

Verses? Any chance you read Revelation for yourself and tell me when the return happens.

 

[Trailblazer]

Who wants to join them? Besides, which sect? But, the point is... you can't blow off Jesus just yet. He still might be on his way... but he's on a horse, so it's going to take some time. And in their vision, things are going to get a lot worse before he shows up.

Okay, not I get it.... you are having fun with this.... As I told Deeje last night maybe Jesus got stuck in traffic or hung up in the clouds.... this is fun for me because I am not waiting for Jesus.

But as far as I can see, there is no reason not to believe the "Son of man", the "Lamb", and the "Lamb that was slain" all refer to Jesus. And, since it is the Lamb that opens up the scroll, sits at the right hand of God and is the one coming back, then that is Jesus and not Baha'u'llah.

There is a good reason why Baha'u'llah never told us to use prophecies o=as proof of His claim.... You can mix and match them and make than say whatever you want to believe.
You seem to forget the small detall which is that Jesus never promised to come back, not once in the NT.

So come on Baha'is all you need to do is come up with why Baha'u'llah is the Lamb. Revelation contains tons of prophecies about the return. You have to have some real answers. Instead of flaking things like the Three Woes or the Two Witnesses. What about that guy, Robert Riggs, that wrote a book about Revelation? I wonder what he says? Have ever looked at it?

Why don't you read this book and then you will know from a Baha'i who actually did the research?

Apocalypse Secrets: Baha'i Interpretation of the Book of Revelation

REVIEWS

Dr John Able has produced a strikingly original and scholarly interpretation of the Book of Revelation. It is must reading for anyone striving to penetrate the hidden secrets of this prophetic book.…Exceedingly interesting —Joe de Courcy, Intelligence Research Group

Beyond Malignant Materialism is a unique parallel interpretation that transcends religious dogma, bridges religious faiths, and explains nineteen hundred years of troubled events in Christianity and Islam with clarity and amazi ng prescience. This work may very well become a template of understanding and peace for all——Rabbi Suzanne Carter, Delray Beach

Beyond Malignant Materialism is a unique perspective on the Book of Revelation as a history of monotheistic Faiths since 96 AD.…The seven churches are the seven major faiths…the primitive faith of Abraham, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity and Islam.…Very interesting reading—Professor Jon Paulien, Loma Linda University

I am blinded by Dr Able’s profound and astonishing work in biblical exegesis and the beauty of his rhetoric. It is a wonder. His amazing work is beautifully crafted and researched.…His approach…greatly enhances the readability of the text—Robert Riggs (Foreword)

Your book is amazingly detailed and thorough; a real tour de force.…a remarkably holistic, comprehensive, and rationally consistent interpretation of Revelation.…Those who are interested in prophecy will never look at Revelation the same again, and this book will influence many future works about the subject—Dr Robert Stockman (Foreword)

Dr Able has produced an accurate, idiomatic, and insightful translation of this peculiar and difficult text that is often very, very good, and includes an incredible amount of historical research on religious history.…A strikingly lively translation that sticks to the intention of the Greek original and provides an authoritative base for his distinctive interpretive approach to the text. Impressive—Professor David Aune (Foreword)

Beyond Malignant Materialism is an interesting historical perspective of the book of Revelation. It provides a new interpretation of many important passages of the holy Bible. With colourful photographs and illustrations, it provides imagery that adds to the understanding of the historical.…The use of different type face is very effective in producing a different feeling when reading sacred text—Mrs Marguerite Sears, Desert Rose Institute, Eloy

Your…adaptation and application of Revelation…was ingenious.…I was impressed by the sheer weight of references to particular events—Professor Fr Richard Woods, Dominican University

Dr Able has written an interesting…provocative commentary on the Book of Revelation. He has set aside historical-critical methodology and its preterist approach in favor of a historicist approach.…His commentary is well-written and clear—Dr Phil Munoa, Hope College, Author Four Powers in Heaven

You write stylishly and readably, and you develop intelligently your thesis that the Book of Revelation extends beyond its strictly Christic origin.…More readable, better organized and more cogently argued than other treatments…of the Middle Eastern context of the Book of Revelation.…I came away respecting the quality of your work —Dr Ralph Townsend, Headmaster of Winchester College, UK

Very Midrashic while etymologically interesting. I have not seen previous use of such exegesis—Dr Harold Landa, Yeshiva University

The writing is colourful and alive suiting your colourful personality—Dr Hushidar Motlagh, Author I Shall Come Again

 

[CG Didymus]

It is the Christians who try to find ways around contradictory verses but you are gunning for the Baha'is as usual.
Why don't you just become a Christians and call it a say?
Or maybe it is more fun for you to play on both sides of the fence.

Neither of you have good answers on some very important things. Baha'is toss out the resurrection of Jesus even though that is the central and climatic thing that happens to Jesus in the gospels. They can't answer the Daniel prophecy that got William Miller to think that Jesus was coming in 1844. They have saved by grace. You have working for your salvation. They replace Judaism and say all the rest are false religions. You replace all of them. They have God creating man. Baha'is have God creating what? An amoeba? A fish? What did the first pre-human look like? And then how long did it take for whatever it was to finally evolve into a human? Religions are miles and miles apart. Baha'is bring them together by changing the beliefs of the people in the other religions to be compatible with Baha'i beliefs. And an all-knowing, all-loving God is behind all this? No. By looking at all the religions, there is no evidence of such a God. A capricious God? A make believe God? Maybe. Or, is their positive and negative spiritual energies that are at work?

Baha'is have some good things and some not so good things. They have a bunch of rules that people will not be able to follow... like the sexual laws. People are going to start messing around with multiple partners? People are going to stop doing it with people of the same sex? People are going to stop doing drugs and drinking alcohol? At least in the Christian version, Jesus comes back and does away with all the people he doesn't like. What are Baha'is going to do with them? Knowing that they will be a corrupting influence on the Baha'is. Unless God intervenes, like in the Christian model, peace and harmony ain't gonna happen. Your dream is as hopeless as you say the Christian dream is of waiting for Jesus.

 

[Trailblazer]

Verses? Any chance you read Revelation for yourself and tell me when the return happens.

Revelation would not say when it happens because Jesus said only the Father knew.

You said: I keep saying that there is still a chance that the Christians are right, because the bad things happen and then the Messiah comes.
Do you have any verses that say that?

 

[Trailblazer]

Neither of you have good answers on some very important things.

The Baha'is have the answers on the most important things, the things that are most vital for individuals and humanity in this age.
I am sorry you cannot see that because you only look at what you don't like.

 

[CG Didymus]

Okay, not I get it.... you are having fun with this.... As I told Deeje last night maybe Jesus got stuck in traffic or hung up in the clouds.... this is fun for me because I am not waiting for Jesus.

There is a good reason why Baha'u'llah never told us to use prophecies o=as proof of His claim.... You can mix and match them and make than say whatever you want to believe.
You seem to forget the small detall which is that Jesus never promised to come back, not once in the NT.

Why don't you read this book and then you will know from a Baha'i who actually did the research?

Apocalypse Secrets: Baha'i Interpretation of the Book of Revelation

REVIEWS

Dr John Able has produced a strikingly original and scholarly interpretation of the Book of Revelation. It is must reading for anyone striving to penetrate the hidden secrets of this prophetic book.…Exceedingly interesting —Joe de Courcy, Intelligence Research Group

Beyond Malignant Materialism is a unique parallel interpretation that transcends religious dogma, bridges religious faiths, and explains nineteen hundred years of troubled events in Christianity and Islam with clarity and amazi ng prescience. This work may very well become a template of understanding and peace for all——Rabbi Suzanne Carter, Delray Beach

Beyond Malignant Materialism is a unique perspective on the Book of Revelation as a history of monotheistic Faiths since 96 AD.…The seven churches are the seven major faiths…the primitive faith of Abraham, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity and Islam.…Very interesting reading—Professor Jon Paulien, Loma Linda University

I am blinded by Dr Able’s profound and astonishing work in biblical exegesis and the beauty of his rhetoric. It is a wonder. His amazing work is beautifully crafted and researched.…His approach…greatly enhances the readability of the text—Robert Riggs (Foreword)

Your book is amazingly detailed and thorough; a real tour de force.…a remarkably holistic, comprehensive, and rationally consistent interpretation of Revelation.…Those who are interested in prophecy will never look at Revelation the same again, and this book will influence many future works about the subject—Dr Robert Stockman (Foreword)

Dr Able has produced an accurate, idiomatic, and insightful translation of this peculiar and difficult text that is often very, very good, and includes an incredible amount of historical research on religious history.…A strikingly lively translation that sticks to the intention of the Greek original and provides an authoritative base for his distinctive interpretive approach to the text. Impressive—Professor David Aune (Foreword)

Beyond Malignant Materialism is an interesting historical perspective of the book of Revelation. It provides a new interpretation of many important passages of the holy Bible. With colourful photographs and illustrations, it provides imagery that adds to the understanding of the historical.…The use of different type face is very effective in producing a different feeling when reading sacred text—Mrs Marguerite Sears, Desert Rose Institute, Eloy

Your…adaptation and application of Revelation…was ingenious.…I was impressed by the sheer weight of references to particular events—Professor Fr Richard Woods, Dominican University

Dr Able has written an interesting…provocative commentary on the Book of Revelation. He has set aside historical-critical methodology and its preterist approach in favor of a historicist approach.…His commentary is well-written and clear—Dr Phil Munoa, Hope College, Author Four Powers in Heaven

You write stylishly and readably, and you develop intelligently your thesis that the Book of Revelation extends beyond its strictly Christic origin.…More readable, better organized and more cogently argued than other treatments…of the Middle Eastern context of the Book of Revelation.…I came away respecting the quality of your work —Dr Ralph Townsend, Headmaster of Winchester College, UK

Very Midrashic while etymologically interesting. I have not seen previous use of such exegesis—Dr Harold Landa, Yeshiva University

The writing is colourful and alive suiting your colourful personality—Dr Hushidar Motlagh, Author I Shall Come Again

But... have you read it? And, have you read Revelation? Right off the bat, when Baha'is say that "666" is a date, I have a problem. Baha'i have to get to the year 661, so they count the years from a guess of when Jesus was born. Then, this was the year that the Umayyads took over and has nothing to do with the beast that has everyone get his mark, or number, put on them. I suspect this book will fudge things around too. If, by the slight chance you've read it, then let me know what it says about the Lamb?

 

[Trailblazer]

But... have you read it? And, have you read Revelation?

I do not need to read it in order to know that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ and the Messiah.
Since I would not even understand it, it would be a waste of my time to read it anyway.

 

[CG Didymus]

Revelation would not say when it happens because Jesus said only the Father knew.

You said: I keep saying that there is still a chance that the Christians are right, because the bad things happen and then the Messiah comes.
Do you have any verses that say that?

Yet, William Miller figured it out? No. Read Revelation and tell me if the Lamb returns while bad things are still happening. Or, if when the Lamb returns Satan and all the evil people are cast into a lake of fire or something. I think there's also a bottomless pit. But, then the New Jerusalem comes down and nothing but good things happen.

Unlike, what happened when Baha'u'llah came. He comes and there's wars. He dies... and there's more wars. The year 2000 has come and gone and still no "lesser" peace. Waiting and waiting. For what? Baha'i expect the destruction of America and the world? Then, the people of the world are going to ask Baha'is for guidance? Or what? Baha'i law, God's supposed law, isn't going to be the law for all people in all the world? And administered by the UHJ? So the government will not be on Baha'u'llah's shoulders? Baha'i laws will only be for Baha'is? But all the people will put together a secular government modeled after the Baha'is administrative order? Is that was Baha's say is supposed to happen or what? So let's start all over... The U.S. is destroyed, then what do Baha'is say will happen?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet, William Miller figured it out? No. Read Revelation and tell me if the Lamb returns while bad things are still happening. Or, if when the Lamb returns Satan and all the evil people are cast into a lake of fire or something. I think there's also a bottomless pit. But, then the New Jerusalem comes down and nothing but good things happen.

Unlike, what happened when Baha'u'llah came. He comes and there's wars. He dies... and there's more wars. The year 2000 has come and gone and still no "lesser" peace. Waiting and waiting. For what? Baha'i expect the destruction of America and the world? Then, the people of the world are going to ask Baha'is for guidance? Or what? Baha'i law, God's supposed law, isn't going to be the law for all people in all the world? And administered by the UHJ? So the government will not be on Baha'u'llah's shoulders? Baha'i laws will only be for Baha'is? But all the people will put together a secular government modeled after the Baha'is administrative order? Is that was Baha's say is supposed to happen or what? So let's start all over... The U.S. is destroyed, then what do Baha'is say will happen?

I know who Baha'u'llah was, so I need no Bible prophecies to support that, but if I bothered to interpret them they would support that.
I am starting to detest the Bible. It is the source of so much pain and confusion.
I do not need it for anything but maybe you do. So have fun with it.

I do not know what the future new world order will look like or how it will operate, only God knows the future.
Baha'is do not know what will happen but we do not believe the U.S will be destroyed. I think it will get better now that people are waking up. I am happy about what is going on.

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not need to read it in order to know that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ and the Messiah.
Since I would not even understand it, it would be a waste of my time to read it anyway.

Of course it would, so why should I waste my time giving you verses. I'm saying that the Lamb, the Son of Man, Christ, some guy on a white horse... somebody returns. The tribulations are over. He comes and gets rid of Satan and all the wicked people.

So, that would make what the Baha'is are saying is wrong. Unless, you read it for yourself and can show me how Baha'u'llah fulfills all of that. But no, you won't. You'll refer me to Bill Sears book and expect me to read your stuff. Yeah, I looked at it and some of it is possible and some of it is very questionable. One Baha'i wanted me to read one of Baha'u'llah's books and I found some stuff about Noah, that he preached about God for 950 years. Yet, Baha's don't believe that Noah or anybody in Genesis ever lived to be that old. So some say that maybe that was how long the "dispensation" of Noah's teachings lasted. But then Shoghi Effendi or some "official" Baha'is said it didn't refer to his dispensation. All I can say is if all this stuff is true, then God does work in very mysterious ways... you could even call them strange ways.

But my biggest gripe against the Baha'is is still... for a religion that says they believe all religions are one, Baha'is still cause a lot of division. How you going to bring the world together in peace when you can't even get spiritual/religious people to get along?

 

[CG Didymus]

I know who Baha'u'llah was, so I need no Bible prophecies to support that, but if I bothered to interpret them they would support that.
I am starting to detest the Bible. It is the source of so much pain and confusion.
I do not need it for anything but maybe you do. So have fun with it.

I do not know what the future new world order will look like or how it will operate, only God knows the future.
Baha'is do not know what will happen but we do not believe the U.S will be destroyed. I think it will get better now that people are waking up. I am happy about what is going on.

From Baha'i library online...

1) From redirecting :<blockquote> All the nations of the world have suffered, why not America: It is corrupt and it is flabby. Russia can do anything to America. America escaped before but this time it will not escape. The streets of New York will run with blood. Politics and individuals are corrupt. America is an atomic base - a target for Russia. England has become the aircraft carrier for atom bombs. The worst danger is that which faces New York. Skyscrapers will fall - there will be burning of the cities as prophesied in the bible.</blockquote> 2) From redirecting :<blockquote> Those who do not respond will lose everything. Those who do respond will gain everything. The large cities are centers of materialism and the believers there will be caught in a trap. Cities like LONDON, PARIS, CHICAGO, NEW YORK, SAN FRANCISCO, will suffer horribly - Abdul-Baha warned the people about the danger of the racial problem in America, but they did nothing and had two wars. The situation is very grave and wish the friends to realize it. They calculate too much, there is not enough self- sacrifice, not enough trust in God.

While they are calculating, the BLOW WILL BE STRUCK. They, themselves, WILL EVAPORATE (go up in smoke), YES THEY WILL!!! The American continent is going to suffer, particularly THE NORTH AMERICAN CONTINENT.​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Make it clear to people, especially young people, that enjoying things communally is not a waste of time. Sports, dancing, music, arts, hobbies, common books and all sorts of shareable things do matter and give people something to share in common. A lot of young people get the idea that they need to work work work all the time. Communal fun is not a waste of time. Having shared experiences, particularly across ethnic backgrounds might help melt imagined ethnic barriers.

Agreed we must learn how to work with each other and share productive lives.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

From Baha'i library online...

1) From redirecting :<blockquote> All the nations of the world have suffered, why not America: It is corrupt and it is flabby. Russia can do anything to America. America escaped before but this time it will not escape. The streets of New York will run with blood. Politics and individuals are corrupt. America is an atomic base - a target for Russia. England has become the aircraft carrier for atom bombs. The worst danger is that which faces New York. Skyscrapers will fall - there will be burning of the cities as prophesied in the bible.</blockquote> 2) From redirecting :<blockquote> Those who do not respond will lose everything. Those who do respond will gain everything. The large cities are centers of materialism and the believers there will be caught in a trap. Cities like LONDON, PARIS, CHICAGO, NEW YORK, SAN FRANCISCO, will suffer horribly - Abdul-Baha warned the people about the danger of the racial problem in America, but they did nothing and had two wars. The situation is very grave and wish the friends to realize it. They calculate too much, there is not enough self- sacrifice, not enough trust in God.

While they are calculating, the BLOW WILL BE STRUCK. They, themselves, WILL EVAPORATE (go up in smoke), YES THEY WILL!!! The American continent is going to suffer, particularly THE NORTH AMERICAN CONTINENT.​

That is a pilgrimage note, from a table talk after world war 2.

They are notes taken from talks Shoghi Effendi gave over dinner and were written from memories of those talks.

They are not Official Baha'i Writings. Shoghi Effendi in His official Writings, never the less, warns America inearnest and great detail, those warnings are unfolding more and more each year.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But my biggest gripe against the Baha'is is still... for a religion that says they believe all religions are one, Baha'is still cause a lot of division. How you going to bring the world together in peace when you can't even get spiritual/religious people to get along?

That is your choice CG. About the book offered by @Trailblazer, let me tell my story. I told you before I am sure and you used it back at me a couple of times.

I was very mad when my wife became a Baha'i in early 84 and asked the first question about it of "Who gets all the Money!

It was a couple of months I stayed in that frame of mind, and then one day after work a book by William Sears was left for me to read called 'God Loves Laughter'. I read that book and was a Baha’i. The next book I read was 'Thief in the Night' and I was confirmed in that Faith. Both those books I could not put down and read them front to back in a couple of days.

All the answers are given in Thief in the night.

I would ask how the world will find Unity and Peace, without considering the Message given by Baha'u'llah?

God is patience, how mankind will survive that long suffering patience, only God knows.

Regards Tony

 

[PruePhillip]

Apartheid was wrong, and so was how innocent white farmers were treated.
That it's wrong, especially since it requires murdering to aquire flesh. Why? Are conservatives pro-cannabalism?
French occupancy.

Quite a few Asian and middle eastern countries.

As I've said, son. Your straw men are impotent.

The real occupiers of Sth Africa were the Bantu. They didn't live alongside the natives,
they exterminated them in a form of total, racial warfare unfamiliar to most Africans.
Apartheid can't be wrong because when its practiced around the world no-one has
any issue with it - just whites practicing it.
The real Vietnam War, as we in the West know it, stems from Marxist Leninism. In
Indo China the Soviets and Maoists promoted it under the guise of "nationalism".
No non-Communist Nationalists survived in North Vietnam, or after 1975.
The idea of cannibalism was decried by white liberals as a "racist construct." Until
it was proven to be true.Columbus, I think, was the one to document how young
children were fattened for eating.
These are examples of how real events get swept under the liberal carpet.

Slavery? Bad whites
Apartheid? Bad whites
Cannibalism? Lying whites
Communism? Didn't happen

 

[Father Heathen]

The real occupiers of Sth Africa were the Bantu. They didn't live alongside the natives,
they exterminated them in a form of total, racial warfare unfamiliar to most Africans.
Apartheid can't be wrong because when its practiced around the world no-one has
any issue with it - just whites practicing it.
The real Vietnam War, as we in the West know it, stems from Marxist Leninism. In
Indo China the Soviets and Maoists promoted it under the guise of "nationalism".
No non-Communist Nationalists survived in North Vietnam, or after 1975.
The idea of cannibalism was decried by white liberals as a "racist construct." Until
it was proven to be true.Columbus, I think, was the one to document how young
children were fattened for eating.
These are examples of how real events get swept under the liberal carpet.

Slavery? Bad whites
Apartheid? Bad whites
Cannibalism? Lying whites
Communism? Didn't happen

I didn't say any of those things, squirt. Oppression and slavery are obviously wrong regardless of who's doing what to who. The Vietnamese War started well before U.S. involvement: Vietnam War - Wikipedia and no **** it involved communist forces, but you asked how it started, which was with French meddling in Indochina. We took over after the French pulled out. The communists certainly weren't good guys, but the poor were driven into their arms by the western backed ruling classes in those countries.
Never heard anyone claim cannibalism was a "racist construct". However, it was once claimed Jews ate and drank the blood of babies (Blood libel - Wikipedia), so it depends on who accused who of it and when.

Some words of advice; when someone slaps your straw men down, don't try to prop them back up again.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, that would make what the Baha'is are saying is wrong. Unless, you read it for yourself and can show me how Baha'u'llah fulfills all of that. But no, you won't.

No, logically speaking it would not make what the Baha'is believe wrong just because I don't show you how Baha'u'llah fulfills all of that. If you want to know how He does, you can read the following book:

Apocalypse Secrets: Baha'i Interpretation of the Book of Revelation

Or you can ask another Baha'i who actually cares. I have better things to do with my time than interpret the Book of Revelation, and even if I did that would only be MY interpretation according to what I already KNOW that Baha'u'llah did.

 

[Trailblazer]

But my biggest gripe against the Baha'is is still... for a religion that says they believe all religions are one, Baha'is still cause a lot of division.

I do not see us causing division. HOW are we causing division?
Can you give me some examples? Evidence is everything.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Baha'is have the answers on the most important things, the things that are most vital for individuals and humanity in this age.
I am sorry you cannot see that because you only look at what you don't like.

Buddhism has a lot of answers. The Mormons have a lot of answers. Have you looked into them? I doubt it. Why, because you like the answers you've found in the Baha'i Faith. Then, when I question things that have been said by Baha'u'llah, Abdul Baha', or Shoghi Effendi, you answer it as if it is automatically true... because they said. And they can't be wrong. When another religion says anything contrary to the beliefs of the Baha'i Faith, it is the other religion that is wrong. That is not believing all religions are one. That is believing that only the Baha'i Faith is correct in all things. And, when the Baha'i Faith says all religions are one, they mean in how Baha'is interpret those other religions.

 

[Trailblazer]

Buddhism has a lot of answers. The Mormons have a lot of answers. Have you looked into them? I doubt it. Why, because you like the answers you've found in the Baha'i Faith.

True.

Then, when I question things that have been said by Baha'u'llah, Abdul Baha', or Shoghi Effendi, you answer it as if it is automatically true... because they said.

I say I believe it is true, and I have the right to believe what I do. I am not asking you to believe what I believe, show me where I ever did that.

And they can't be wrong. When another religion says anything contrary to the beliefs of the Baha'i Faith, it is the other religion that is wrong.

If it contradicts the Baha'i beliefs, I believe it is wrong. So what? If my beliefs contradict Christians they believe I am wrong. Why the double standard?

That is not believing all religions are one. That is believing that only the Baha'i Faith is correct in all things.

Sorry but that will not fly because there are many beliefs that we share in common, so I believe that other religions are correct in many of their beliefs