The Destruction of America

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay, the Baha'is say that Muhammad was one of the Two Witnesses and the first of the Three Woes... that The Bab and Baha'u'llah were the next two Woes, but Baha'u'llah didn't say anything about the "Lamb"? Like I said, everything in Revelation makes it sound like the Lamb is Jesus. Anyway, I've got stuff to do too. I'll check back later. And thanks for doing your best to answer my questions.

Yes I know about time restraints. I will post more on what will most likely unfold in America from official Baha'i Writings.

Stay strong, stay happy CG, the world is on a ride that can not be stopped, we have come to the age of consequences.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

But Sikhs taught all this way before the Baha'i Faith. I rarely, rarely hear a Baha'i say anything about the Sikhs. Why not? Are they not important to Baha'is?

I suppose the reason is that we are not familiar with the religion. We do not talk about Zoroastrianism either, but we believe it is a true religion of God.

I never heard of Sikhism until I came to this forum but that does not mean it is not important. From what little I heard, it has good teachings and many are similar to Baha'i teachings.

 

[Trailblazer]

the world is on a ride that can not be stopped, we have come to the age of consequences.

And I am supremely happy about that. After all, I have been waiting for almost 50 years to see it unfold.

 

[Trailblazer]

The question is that when another religion has contradictory beliefs... Who is correct the Baha'i Faith or the other religion?

I believe the Baha'i Faith would be correct because I believe that Baha'u'llah was the most recent Messenger of God, so He had the most current Revelation from God. As a Messenger of God, He was given the authority by God to correct any misunderstandings of previous religions.

Yet, Baha'is teach that all religions are one? Sure, after Baha'is have "corrected" everything they disagree with in those other religions. Which is fine... if you're right. And how do we know if you are right or not without questioning you?

The Baha'is did not correct jack squat, Baha'u'llah made the corrections.
It is not us you should question, it is Baha'u'llah.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Also how applicable it is to what the Bahai's have been told by Baha'u'llah to do. That is go out and share the meaning of prophecy and the meanings that were intended in the past scriptures.

The Spirit of the Oneness of God and Humanity is now permeating the minds of humanity, the Lesser peace will soon come, but it may be the destruction of America is needed first.

To me that, that is inclusive of some material destruction but mostly the destruction of a mindset that sets any American veiw as being any holier than any other Nations, or peoples of this world.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

The Spirit of the Oneness of God and Humanity is now permeating the minds of humanity, the Lesser peace will soon come, but it may be the destruction of America is needed first.

To me that, that is inclusive of some material destruction but mostly the destruction of a mindset that sets any American view as being any holier than any other Nations, or peoples of this world.

It is nice to get the perspective of one who is not an American, but as an American I see it a little differently.

First, I do not know what is in the Writings that supports the 'material destruction' of America.

Second, what I now see is many people in American coming together for the good of the whole, and so I see that America's great spiritual destiny will unfold as Baha'u'llah predicted. I do not know about this 'holier than thou' mindset you speak of but if it exists, Americans are sure being knocked off their pedestal. That began almost four years ago with the election of our President.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It is nice to get the perspective of one who is not an American, but as an American I see it a little differently.

First, I do not know what is in the Writings that supports the 'material destruction' of America.

Second, what I now see is many people in American coming together for the good of the whole, and so I see that America's great spiritual destiny will unfold as Baha'u'llah predicted. I do not know about this 'holier than thou' mindset you speak of but if it exists, Americans are sure being knocked off their pedestal. That began almost four years ago with the election of our President.

@CG Didymus - I put this in Blue writing, as you will be able to see that Shoghi Effendi foresaw what has been offered previously in the Baha'i writings and gave a view in context of those writings as to what He saw America faced and you can see that America has been warned. These are from the offical source which I reference at the end.

This is the passage I was thinking of, my mate had mentioned it to me just this morning. This passage is from Citadel of Faith, which is offical Baha'i Writings, note that the Civil unrest based mainly on race issues, is followed by the events much like foretold in pilgrim notes.

'...No less serious is the stress and strain imposed on the fabric of American society through the fundamental and persistent neglect, by the governed and governors alike, of the supreme, the inescapable and urgent duty -- so repeatedly and graphically represented and stressed by `Abdu'l-Bahá in His arraignment of the basic weaknesses in the social fabric of the nation -- of remedying, while there is yet time, through a revolutionary change in the concept and attitude of the average white American toward his Negro fellow citizen, a situation which, if allowed to drift, will, in the words of `Abdu'l-Bahá, cause the streets of American cities to run with blood, aggravating thereby the havoc which the fearful weapons of destruction, raining from the air, and amassed by a ruthless, a vigilant, a powerful and inveterate enemy, will wreak upon those same cities...'' CITADEL OF FAITH page 126.

Thus one could see in that passage, that as these racial atrocities unfold, then the attention is taken away from another source that would take advantage of such turmoil happening in another nation. God gives Messages for a reason and if America had addressed the racial tensions, well?...maybe what may be around the corner could also be prevented?

It goes on to say:

".....The American nation, of which the community of the Most Great Name forms as yet a negligible and infinitesimal part, stands, indeed, from whichever angle one observes its immediate fortunes, in grave peril. The woes and tribulations which threaten it are partly avoidable, but mostly inevitable and God-sent, for by reason of them a government and people clinging tenaciously to the obsolescent doctrine of absolute sovereignty and upholding a political system, manifestly at variance with the needs of a world already contracted into a neighborhood and crying out for unity, will find itself purged of its anachronistic conceptions, and prepared to play a preponderating role, as foretold by `Abdu'l-Bahá, in the hoisting of the standard of the Lesser Peace, in the unification of mankind, and in the establishment of a world federal government on this planet. These same fiery tribulations will not only firmly weld the American nation to its sister nations in both hemispheres, but will through their cleansing effect, purge it thoroughly of the accumulated dross which ingrained racial prejudice, rampant materialism, widespread ungodliness and moral laxity have combined, in the course of successive generations, to produce, and which have prevented her thus far from assuming the role of world spiritual leadership forecast by `Abdu'l-Bahá'í unerring pen -- a role which she is bound to fulfill through travail and sorrow." ' CITADEL OF FAITH page 126 to 127.

That is clear and that is strong Trailblazer. You know that we wish America all the best and happiness, but at the same time we know many of us might not make it through the times approaching.

Search this document, what will most likely unfold in America has been offered. Also consider, we can change that destiny, if we change quicker, we have the future in our hands.

Citadel of Faith | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

@CG Didymus - I put this in Blue writing, as you will be able to see that Shoghi Effendi foresaw what has been offered previously in the Baha'i writings and gave a view in context of those writings as to what He saw America faced and you can see that America has been warned. These are from the offical source which I reference at the end.

This is the passage I was thinking of, my mate had mentioned it to me just this morning. This passage is from Citadel of Faith, which is offical Baha'i Writings, note that the Civil unrest based mainly on race issues, is followed by the events much like foretold in pilgrim notes.

'...No less serious is the stress and strain imposed on the fabric of American society through the fundamental and persistent neglect, by the governed and governors alike, of the supreme, the inescapable and urgent duty -- so repeatedly and graphically represented and stressed by `Abdu'l-Bahá in His arraignment of the basic weaknesses in the social fabric of the nation -- of remedying, while there is yet time, through a revolutionary change in the concept and attitude of the average white American toward his Negro fellow citizen, a situation which, if allowed to drift, will, in the words of `Abdu'l-Bahá, cause the streets of American cities to run with blood, aggravating thereby the havoc which the fearful weapons of destruction, raining from the air, and amassed by a ruthless, a vigilant, a powerful and inveterate enemy, will wreak upon those same cities...'' CITADEL OF FAITH page 126.

Thus one could see in that passage, that as these racial atrocities unfold, then the attention is taken away from another source that would take advantage of such turmoil happening in another nation. God gives Messages for a reason and if America had addressed the racial tensions, well?...maybe what may be around the corner could also be prevented?

It goes on to say:

".....The American nation, of which the community of the Most Great Name forms as yet a negligible and infinitesimal part, stands, indeed, from whichever angle one observes its immediate fortunes, in grave peril. The woes and tribulations which threaten it are partly avoidable, but mostly inevitable and God-sent, for by reason of them a government and people clinging tenaciously to the obsolescent doctrine of absolute sovereignty and upholding a political system, manifestly at variance with the needs of a world already contracted into a neighborhood and crying out for unity, will find itself purged of its anachronistic conceptions, and prepared to play a preponderating role, as foretold by `Abdu'l-Bahá, in the hoisting of the standard of the Lesser Peace, in the unification of mankind, and in the establishment of a world federal government on this planet. These same fiery tribulations will not only firmly weld the American nation to its sister nations in both hemispheres, but will through their cleansing effect, purge it thoroughly of the accumulated dross which ingrained racial prejudice, rampant materialism, widespread ungodliness and moral laxity have combined, in the course of successive generations, to produce, and which have prevented her thus far from assuming the role of world spiritual leadership forecast by `Abdu'l-Bahá'í unerring pen -- a role which she is bound to fulfill through travail and sorrow." ' CITADEL OF FAITH page 126 to 127.

That is clear and that is strong Trailblazer. You know that we wish America all the best and happiness, but at the same time we know many of us might not make it through the times approaching.

Search this document, what will most likely unfold in America has been offered. Also consider, we can change that destiny, if we change quicker, we have the future in our hands.

Citadel of Faith | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

I want to share with you what I just received by my health care provider in my e-mail. This movement against injustice and racism in America is spreading..... I'm so jazzed.


A message from the leaders of Kaiser Permanente Washington

No Room for Inequity and Racism: Change is Needed Now

The civil unrest occurring in our state and around the country is weighing heavily on our hearts and minds. During this difficult time — and always — we want you to know that Kaiser Permanente Washington believes the lives and livelihoods of every member of our Black community matter, and we stand unwavering in our solidarity against racism, injustice, and inequality. It has no place in a healthy society.

Current protests are an expression of outrage squarely focused in a shared voice calling for the end of the systemic oppression and violence toward Black, Indigenous, and People of Color amongst our friends, neighbors, colleagues, and community members. It must end and we must act quickly because the issue of racism and its impact can no longer be tolerated.

Discrimination and oppression have no place in a healthy and just society.

Kaiser Permanente has a long and strong history of supporting social justice issues and a rich tradition of inclusion, diversity, and equity. Yet there is more we must do. In Washington, we're learning from the successes achieved elsewhere — and we're also learning from our members here — how to more fully address the needs of the diverse population that we serve. Along with business and community leaders, we're working to find ways for everyone in our communities to experience a greater sense of belonging, where everyone has the opportunity to thrive.

Safety and Solidarity Go Hand in Hand

We recognize our own plans to join in activities such as protests, walks, and volunteer efforts and know you may choose to do the same. If you do join in, please continue to take precautions that lower your risk of infection with COVID-19. Please wear a mask, practice social distancing, and do all that you can to keep yourself and others safe while you engage with others in your community.

Support Mental Health and Well-Being

At this time, feelings of stress and anxiety may be compounded by the social isolation and other challenges of the COVID-19 pandemic. As always, we encourage you to be mindful and take good care of your mental health and well-being.

It is an honor to serve you. We look forward to a more just and equitable future together.

Susan Mullaney
President, Kaiser Permanente Washington

Paul Minardi, MD
President, Washington Permanente Medical Group

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe the Baha'i Faith would be correct because I believe that Baha'u'llah was the most recent Messenger of God, so He had the most current Revelation from God. As a Messenger of God, He was given the authority by God to correct any misunderstandings of previous religions.

The Baha'is did not correct jack squat, Baha'u'llah made the corrections.
It is not us you should question, it is Baha'u'llah.

Wow, you couldn't figure out that I implied your infallible prophet? Or, his infallible son? Or, his infallible grandson? Or the almost infallible UHJ?

 

[Trailblazer]

Wow, you couldn't figure out that I implied your infallible prophet? Or, his infallible son? Or, his infallible grandson? Or the almost infallible UHJ?

No, I could not figure that out, as you said: Sure, after Baha'is have "corrected" everything they disagree with in those other religions. Which is fine... if you're right. And how do we know if you are right or not without questioning you?

Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi are not infallible, only Baha'u'llah is infallible.

 

[CG Didymus]

Jesus says in verse 28 that he is going away and coming back. You have said that Jesus never said he is coming back.

Jesus meant that His Spirit was going to come back in another person, not that His body was going to come back.

But you said that Jesus never said he was returning? I find a verse where he does say he is returning and now you say he meant his spirit?

Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,

When Peter was quoting this prophesy did he think it was being fulfilled that day, or that it would be fulfilled 2000 years later?

Act 2: 14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:​

1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake
2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day
3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars

The Lisbon earthquake... In combination with subsequent fires and a tsunami, the earthquake almost totally destroyed Lisbon and adjoining areas. Seismologists today estimate the Lisbon earthquake had a magnitude of 8.4​

And this is the earthquake that was prophesied by Joel?

New England's Dark Day occurred on May 19, 1780, when an unusual darkening of the day sky was observed over the New England states and parts of Canada.[1] The primary cause of the event is believed to have been a combination of smoke from forest fires,[2] a thick fog, and cloud cover. The darkness was so complete that candles were required from noon on. It did not disperse until the middle of the next night.​

Seriously? Smoke and clouds and fog in New England fulfill a prophecy in the Jewish Bible about a man not yet born in Persia?

"The morning of November 13th, 1833, was rendered memorable by an exhibition of the phenomenon called SHOOTING STARS... "The shower pervaded nearly the whole of North America...​

So a meteor shower over North America signal the birth of a man in Persia? And this is the Baha'i proof of the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy? Or, is it just Bill Sears making up a good story? I think at last you brought this up I asked about Mt. St. Helens. Portland was probably pretty dark. What prophecy did that fulfill? Or the earthquakes that keep happening?

No, the NT takes things and shapes them to fit their beliefs. Then Baha'is, or Baha'u'llah, I forgot. Baha'is don't do jack squat, takes them and reshapes them to fit their religion. I think Baha'is would be much better off just talking about the teachings on how Baha'is are going to make the world better. "Fulfilled" is way too vague and too easily manipulated.

 

[Trailblazer]

But you said that Jesus never said he was returning? I find a verse where he does say he is returning and now you say he meant his spirit?

That's correct. Jesus never said "I will be returning in the same physical body."

 

[Trailblazer]

When Peter was quoting this prophesy did he think it was being fulfilled that day, or that it would be fulfilled 2000 years later?

Hell if I know what Peter thought. I only know what happened.

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'is don't do jack squat, takes them and reshapes them to fit their religion.

No, that is what Christians do. Baha'is don't have to reshape anything because the prophecies were all fulfilled.

 

[CG Didymus]

No, I could not figure that out, as you said: Sure, after Baha'is have "corrected" everything they disagree with in those other religions. Which is fine... if you're right. And how do we know if you are right or not without questioning you?

Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi are not infallible, only Baha'u'llah is infallible.

Infallibility and Abdul Baha:

It was the express wish of Bahá'u'lláh that after Him the friends should "turn" to 'Abdu'l-Bahá. Bahá'u'lláh also said in His Book of Laws that anything that was not clear in His Writings should be "referred" to His Most Mighty Branch springing from the Ancient Root. (See "The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh" pages 134-135.) In one of the Tablets of 'Abdu'l-Bahá published in "Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bahá" (page 214) He quotes the passages mentioned above and interprets them to mean that "whatever He ('Abdu'l-Bahá) saith is the very truth". 'Abdu'l-Bahá further says, referring to those who do not accept Him as the Interpreter of the Word of God, "Whoso deviates from my interpretation is a victim of his own fancy" ("The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh" page 138). Moreover, in the "Star of the West" Volume XII, page 227, 'Abdu'l-Bahá interprets the verses from the "Tablet of the Branch" to mean "...whatsoever His (Abdu'l-Bahá's) pen records, that is correct...."
​

If Abdul Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the UHJ are not infallible, that's okay with me. But the way I heard it was that there is a level of infallibility with all of them. Even the UHJ, when they make a wrong decision, it is supposed to be taken as an "infallible" decision until it becomes obvious to all that what they said is wrong. But you've never heard any of this? Let me look it up...

One of the essential features of Bahá'u'lláh's Covenant is the infallibility of the Universal House of Justice. Bahá'u'lláh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá have explicitly guaranteed divine inspiration and infallible guidance for the Universal House of Justice.​

 

[CG Didymus]

It is nice to get the perspective of one who is not an American, but as an American I see it a little differently.

First, I do not know what is in the Writings that supports the 'material destruction' of America.

Second, what I now see is many people in American coming together for the good of the whole, and so I see that America's great spiritual destiny will unfold as Baha'u'llah predicted. I do not know about this 'holier than thou' mindset you speak of but if it exists, Americans are sure being knocked off their pedestal. That began almost four years ago with the election of our President.

America? Lots of blood on its hands. You ever watch the History channel's series on "The Men that Built America"? They were all a little shady. One guy hired security guards and had them shoot his protesting workers. They've got one going now that talks about Tecumseh, a Shawnee Chief, that tried to form a Native confederacy. The colonists killed him. Then slavery? Yeah, some people in this country need to get knocked off their pedestal.

 

[CG Didymus]

That's correct. Jesus never said "I will be returning in the same physical body."

After he died, did he claim to have some sort of physical body? Yes, that verse where he says he is not a ghost but has flesh and bone. But who really cares huh. I going to one of your other threads.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I want to share with you what I just received by my health care provider in my e-mail. This movement against injustice and racism in America is spreading..... I'm so jazzed.

This passage syas it all, this is an extract from it;

".....The thing that must come hath come suddenly; behold how they flee from it! The inevitable hath come to pass; witness how they have cast it behind their backs! This is the Day whereon every man will fly from himself, how much more from his kindred, could ye but perceive it. Say: By God! The blast hath been blown on the trumpet, and lo, mankind hath swooned away before us! The Herald hath cried out, and the Summoner raised His voice saying: “The Kingdom is God’s, the Most Powerful, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting......”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 43-46

It also offers;

"......Say: Is there any doubt concerning God? Behold how He hath come down from the heaven of His grace, girded with power and invested with sovereignty. Is there any doubt concerning His signs? Open ye your eyes, and consider His clear evidence. Paradise is on your right hand, and hath been brought nigh unto you, while Hell hath been made to blaze. Witness its devouring flame. Haste ye to enter into Paradise, as a token of Our mercy unto you, and drink ye from the hands of the All-Merciful the Wine that is life indeed...."

This to me is calling us to live virtues lives, without virtues, humanity will not survive its own ferocious ways.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

If Abdul Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the UHJ are not infallible, that's okay with me. But the way I heard it was that there is a level of infallibility with all of them. Even the UHJ, when they make a wrong decision, it is supposed to be taken as an "infallible" decision until it becomes obvious to all that what they said is wrong. But you've never heard any of this?

Of course I know all of this. To say whatever Abdu'l-Baha said is the very truth is not to say he was infallible. If we are faithful to the Covenant of Baha'u'llah, we are supposed to believe that Shoghi Effendi and Abdu'l-Baha are authoritative in what they wrote but only within their spheres of knowledge, not in everything. By contrast Baha'ullah is considered infallible in everything He wrote, since we believe His will is identical with the will of God.

I know about the UHJ, and they are only considered infallible when they meet as a body and make decisions, kind of like the Pope is considered infallible in Catholicism.

 

[Trailblazer]

After he died, did he claim to have some sort of physical body? Yes, that verse where he says he is not a ghost but has flesh and bone. But who really cares huh. I going to one of your other threads.

The Gospel writers said that Jesus said that, but there is no proof that He ever said that. It is a story.