The Destruction of America

[CG Didymus]

The Gospel writers said that Jesus said that, but there is no proof that He ever said that. It is a story.

I thought you said, "The Baha'is did not correct jack squat." You are a Baha'i and are "correcting" a verse in the NT that says that Jesus had a flesh and bone body. But you, not Baha'u'llah, say that is just a "story". Implying that it isn't true. So Spartan and Deejee are so lost. They believe the writers of the NT were telling the truth. Too bad for them. I wonder if they will ever see the light and realize that the NT and the rest of the Bible is "just" stories. Please don't you or any Baha'i ever pretend that you believe in the Bible or the Scriptures of any other religions. Everyone sees through you. Other than that, you have a great religion, just stop pretending you care about what other religions say and believe, 'cause, when it comes down to it, you don't.

 

[Trailblazer]

I thought you said, "The Baha'is did not correct jack squat." You are a Baha'i and are "correcting" a verse in the NT that says that Jesus had a flesh and bone body.

What I meant by what I said before was that the individual Baha'is have no authority to correct what was revealed in the Scriptures of the past dispensations. Baha'is can have an opinion though, and I have opinions.

Please don't you or any Baha'i ever pretend that you believe in the Bible or the Scriptures of any other religions. Everyone sees through you.

Other than that, you have a great religion, just stop pretending you care about what other religions say and believe, 'cause, when it comes down to it, you don't.

That was very rude but maybe you do not even realize that. You are overstepping your bounds by telling other people 'what they believe' and saying that the Baha'is do not believe in in the Bible or the Scriptures of any other religions based solely upon the fact that we do not believe in the resurrection stories. There are liberal Christians who do not believe in the resurrection stories but they believe in the Bible. I guess logic is not your forte.

You are also overstepping your bounds by saying that I do not believe in the Bible or care about what other religions say and believe. All I would have to do to prove you are wrong on a purely logical basis would be to post some Bible verses that I fully agree with and cherish in my heart. Here, let's give it a try with a few examples or my favorite verses.

Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Matthew 7:24-27 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

And oh, let's not forget that I have Christian radio playing all day and night. If I did not share their beliefs about God, why would I want to hear their music? Frankly, I think that the Baha'is could learn more than a few things from Christians, who take their love for God and faith in God very seriously.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Other than that, you have a great religion, just stop pretending you care about what other religions say and believe, 'cause, when it comes down to it, you don't.

I see you have a quandary CG.

I can say I would give my life before I would deny any of God's given Messenger's. That is inclusive of Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah. Thus I care greatly about all those God given Messengers and Messages given. They all shows us how to become kind and loving people.

The Message of Baha'u'llah confirms the Messages given by all of them. Ya Baha'ul Abha!

Baha'u'llah offers new thoughts as to how we should look at those scriptures, as the old thoughts have divided and excluded all other Faiths from accepting each other.

The times unfolding will give you lots of food for thought, you will get to witness what predudices of race, gender and religion will produce, all the while knowing that Baha'u'llah has offered a solution, a solution no one is compelled to accept.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think that the Baha'is could learn more than a few things from Christians, who take their love

I have always thought that the JW are a great example of how unity in faith can work. The Baha'i could learn a lot about how they support each other and support remote believers.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

The Message of Baha'u'llah confirms the Messages given by all of them. Ya Baha'ul Abha!

He sure does, and He warns us not to make any distinctions between the Messengers.

“Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 59-60

 

[Trailblazer]

I can say I would give my life before I would deny any of God's given Messenger's. That is inclusive of Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah.

And let's not forget that Baha'u'llah said that to deny any of the Messengers is to deny all of them.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And let's not forget that Baha'u'llah said that to deny any of the Messengers is to deny all of them.

As 'Abdu'l-Baha says: - It is not necessary to lower Abraham to raise Jesus. It is not necessary to lower Jesus to proclaim Baha'u'llah. We must welcome the Truth of God wherever we behold it. The essence of the question is that all these great Messengers came to raise the Divine Standard of Perfections. All of them shine as orbs in the same heaven of the Divine Will. All of them give Light to the world." from Star of the West.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

As 'Abdu'l-Baha says: - It is not necessary to lower Abraham to raise Jesus. It is not necessary to lower Jesus to proclaim Baha'u'llah. We must welcome the Truth of God wherever we behold it. The essence of the question is that all these great Messengers came to raise the Divine Standard of Perfections. All of them shine as orbs in the same heaven of the Divine Will. All of them give Light to the world." from Star of the West.

Regards Tony

That's all good and swell but let's get real. Adam a manifestation? Was he even a historical person? Was he the first created man? Did he live to be over 900 years old? Was Jesus and Krishna God? Did Jesus rise from the dead? No, the Baha'is elevate Adam and knock down Jesus and Krishna. Now maybe you're right, but still you are lowering them down from the place their followers put them and raising Adam to a place where even Jews don't put him.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's all good and swell but let's get real. Adam a manifestation? Was he even a historical person? Was he the first created man? Did he live to be over 900 years old? Was Jesus and Krishna God? Did Jesus rise from the dead? No, the Baha'is elevate Adam and knock down Jesus and Krishna. Now maybe you're right, but still you are lowering them down from the place their followers put them and raising Adam to a place where even Jews don't put him.

How real? More real than a World Embracing Faith who's World Centre is on Mount Carmel in Haifa Isreal, where it is foretold that;

Isaiah 35:2 "It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given to it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God."

How can that mean anything else but Baha'u'llah, the 'Glory of the Lord' sending the Law out from Zion from the New Abode of Peace, with a New Name. All people from all Nation flow up the Mountain of the Lord, that is as real as it ever gets CG.

But of course that is my view, please see it however you choose to, God allows us to do that.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

No, the Baha'is elevate Adam and knock down Jesus and Krishna. Now maybe you're right, but still you are lowering them down from the place their followers put them and raising Adam to a place where even Jews don't put him.

Where did you get the idea that Baha'is elevate Adam and knock down Jesus and Krishna?

 

[CG Didymus]

How real? More real than a World Embracing Faith who's World Centre is on Mount Carmel in Haifa Isreal,

No. This is what I asked...

That's all good and swell but let's get real. Adam a manifestation? Was he even a historical person? Was he the first created man? Did he live to be over 900 years old? Was Jesus and Krishna God? Did Jesus rise from the dead? No, the Baha'is elevate Adam and knock down Jesus and Krishna. Now maybe you're right, but still you are lowering them down from the place their followers put them and raising Adam to a place where even Jews don't put him.

Where did you get the idea that Baha'is elevate Adam and knock down Jesus and Krishna?

Is Adam a manifestation in Judaism or Christianity? No. Then somebody elevated him into that hallowed position. A person that very well maybe fictional. A person that disobeyed God and got cursed. So how does he quality to be a manifestation? Then Christians make Jesus into God. Do you knock down that belief? I think you do. Same with Krishna. An Avatar of Vishnu? No. Baha'i knock that down to and say that God does not incarnate into human forms. So yes, get real.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Is Adam a manifestation in Judaism or Christianity? No. Then somebody elevated him into that hallowed position.

God has shown us what the story means. It is full of Metephor for us to think about, which in turn creates spiritual consciousness.

The story of creation in the Bible is also such a narrative.

Baha'u'llah has allowed us to consider the story alongside science and in that way unravel the Metephor.

A person that disobeyed God and got cursed. So how does he quality to be a manifestation?

God has told us this was the station of Adam, in a Message giving for this age. Now it is up to us to consider the Biblical records in another way.

Then Christians make Jesus into God. Do you knock down that belief? I think you do.

Every person has the choice to accept Jesus as Christ. Muhammad corrected that doctrine of the Trinity way back in the 600's. God knocked that down some time ago via the Message given in the Quran. Baha'u'llah confirmed how Jesus was the Self of God amongst us, but no Messenger is God in Essence.

Jesus said many would call out in His name and He would not know them and said for them to begone. It can thus be said that Jesus knocked down such doctrines in the original Message and has done so in 3 more Messages given since that time. Many Christians also do not see Jesus as God.

Same with Krishna. An Avatar of Vishnu? No. Baha'i knock that down to and say that God does not incarnate into human forms.

Same as above. I see Krishna was the Self of God amongst men in that age. That does not mean that a flesh body is God and it does not mean Krishna is the Essence of God, but Krishna was all we can know about God, same as all the Messengers. It is they that teach us of God.

1 John 4:12 "No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us".

John 1:18 "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."

That is the reality of the Messengers, they are the Holy Spirit, the Light of God. Not God.

The theology is sound and scriptural, from all the Messages given.

Some translations of the Bible and doctrines made from the bible, transgress another warning given;

Poverbs 30:5-6 "Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar."

So yes, get real.

I see the Message of Baha'u'llah is from God, that is as real as it gets to me.

Maybe this is your quandary? I see that America is now facing a period in history that will test its United Status.

Baha'u'llah has said Nationalism is a cancer and global thought is needed, a push back to a nationalistic mindset will cause more division.

Baha'u'llah offered that we are One humanity and failure to address race issues will result in the destruction of the fabric of America.

That is what this thread is about. All the issues that America and the world now face, has had solutions given. How bad do we allow things to get, before we bow down on our knees to God and say, we should have listened?

There is no more I can do but to keep offering the solutions that I see God has given for this age, until the time comes people choose to listen and likewise act, or not.

Stay safe and well CG, you know I will always wish everyone well and happy. What a great day to be given life in, the day promised by all Messengers. Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I see Krishna was the Self of God amongst men in that age. That does not mean that a flesh body is God and it does not mean Krishna is the Essence of God, but Krishna was all we can know about God, same as all the Messengers. It is they that teach us of God.

According to Hindu belief, Vishnu has incarnated on Earth at least nine times to destroy evil and restore justice in the world... And another includes Krishna, the deity. Like Rama, Lord Krishna is also revered as a god in the Hindu faith... Kalki, the prophesied god, is the 10th representation of Vishnu, who has not yet appeared on Earth. Kalki, the prophesied god, is the 10th representation of Vishnu, who has not yet appeared on Earth. When Kalki arrives, it is said that he will come to destroy evil and restore the moral order of humanity by the end of the Kali Yuga period, the current era in the Hindu calendar. Since we are only 5,000 years into Kali Yuga, which is said to last 432,000 years, it may be a long time before the Kalki avatar appears.​

 

[Trailblazer]

Is Adam a manifestation in Judaism or Christianity? No. Then somebody elevated him into that hallowed position.

No, Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha explained who Adam really was.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

According to Hindu belief, Vishnu has incarnated on Earth at least nine times to destroy evil and restore justice in the world... And another includes Krishna, the deity. Like Rama, Lord Krishna is also revered as a god in the Hindu faith... Kalki, the prophesied god, is the 10th representation of Vishnu, who has not yet appeared on Earth. Kalki, the prophesied god, is the 10th representation of Vishnu, who has not yet appeared on Earth. When Kalki arrives, it is said that he will come to destroy evil and restore the moral order of humanity by the end of the Kali Yuga period, the current era in the Hindu calendar. Since we are only 5,000 years into Kali Yuga, which is said to last 432,000 years, it may be a long time before the Kalki avatar appears.​

A lot has been lost in history, the records gone CG, yes Baha'u'llah has confirmed there has been many Messengers, to which records with some accuracy only remain for a few.

As to time prophecy, they are notoriously difficult to interpret, but with 432,000, it brings a smile. In ancient numerology (not to be confused with modern day) 432,000 could be seen as reducing to 9.

The time between the when the Bab declared and Baha'u'llah received His Message in the dungeon, was 9 years

Baha, the name of Baha'u'llah also has the numerical value of 9.

So numbers tie into the fabric of life, we like to see it our way, but that is not always God's way.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In the early 1900's Abdul'baha saw that America would lead the way to peace, there is much hope for the future.

".... Yet even now warfare prevails. Envy and hatred have arisen between nations. But because I find the American nation so capable of achievement and this government the fairest of western governments, its institutions superior to others, my wish and hope is that the banner of international reconciliation may first be raised on this continent and the standard of the Most Great Peace be unfurled here. May the American people and their government unite in their efforts in order that this light may dawn from this point and spread to all regions, for this is one of the greatest bestowals of God. In order that America may avail herself of this opportunity, I beg that you strive and pray with heart and soul, devoting all your energies to this end: that the banner of international peace may be upraised here and that this democracy may be the cause of the cessation of warfare in all other countries." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 83

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

27Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.
Jesus says in verse 28 that he is going away and coming back. You have said that Jesus never said he is coming back. So how do you interpret that verse?

The question was about who is the "Lamb" in Revelation?

I see the Lamb is all the Messengers.

Thus I can say the Lamb is very applicable to both Christ and the Bab as an obvious sacrafice, but it applicable to all Messengers as they all give the same sacrafice, they give their life for the cause they offer us all.

Okay, the Baha'is say that Muhammad was one of the Two Witnesses and the first of the Three Woes... that The Bab and Baha'u'llah were the next two Woes, but Baha'u'llah didn't say anything about the "Lamb"? Like I said, everything in Revelation makes it sound like the Lamb is Jesus.

Jesus meant that His Spirit was going to come back in another person, not that His body was going to come back.

The context is that we do beleive the other religious scriptures are true.

Baha'u'llah offered a different way at looking at them, a different frame of reference.

But you said that Jesus never said he was returning? I find a verse where he does say he is returning and now you say he meant his spirit?

That's correct. Jesus never said "I will be returning in the same physical body."

After he died, did he claim to have some sort of physical body? Yes, that verse where he says he is not a ghost but has flesh and bone.

The Gospel writers said that Jesus said that, but there is no proof that He ever said that. It is a story.

You are a Baha'i and are "correcting" a verse in the NT that says that Jesus had a flesh and bone body. But you, not Baha'u'llah, say that is just a "story". Implying that it isn't true.

stop pretending you care about what other religions say and believe, 'cause, when it comes down to it, you don't.

That was very rude but maybe you do not even realize that. You are overstepping your bounds by telling other people 'what they believe' and saying that the Baha'is do not believe in in the Bible or the Scriptures of any other religions based solely upon the fact that we do not believe in the resurrection stories.

I can say I would give my life before I would deny any of God's given Messenger's. That is inclusive of Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah. Thus I care greatly about all those God given Messengers and Messages given. They all shows us how to become kind and loving people.

The Message of Baha'u'llah confirms the Messages given by all of them.

No, Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha explained who Adam really was.

So to sum up... The Bible story of Adam is wrong? If so, then you don't believe the Bible. Did Isaac or Ishmael get taken to get sacrificed by Abraham? Baha'is say Ishmael. Therefore, Baha'is don't believe the Bible story is true. The New Testament says that Jesus rose from the dead and had a flesh and bone body. Baha'is don't believe that. So you can say how much you love all the messengers and how you love all the Scriptures of all the religions, but... it's just words. In actuality, you don't. And why the big fuss. Lots of people don't believe them to be true. The problem is that Baha'is keep pretending that they do believe they are true.

 

[Trailblazer]

So to sum up... The Bible story of Adam is wrong? If so, then you don't believe the Bible.

No, I do not believe everything in the Bible, or that everything in the Bible is literally true.

Introduction

Although Bahá'ís universally share a great respect for the Bible, and acknowledge its status as sacred literature, their individual views about its authoritative status range along the full spectrum of possibilities. At one end there are those who assume the uncritical evangelical or fundamentalist-Christian view that the Bible is wholly and indisputably the word of God. At the other end are Bahá'ís attracted to the liberal, scholarly conclusion that the Bible is no more than a product of complex historical and human forces. Between these extremes is the possibility that the Bible contains the Word of God, but only in a particular sense of the phrase 'Word of God' or in particular texts. I hope to show that a Bahá'í view must lie in this middle area, and can be defined to some degree.

Conclusion

The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been. Instead there is an area of continuing interest for Bahá'í scholars, possibly involving the creation of new categories for defining authoritative religious literature.

A Baháí View of the Bible

The problem is that Baha'is keep pretending that they do believe they are true.

No, we do not pretend to believe in any of that, including the bodily resurrection.

 

[Mitty]

I didn't say any of those things, squirt. Oppression and slavery are obviously wrong regardless of who's doing what to who. The Vietnamese War started well before U.S. involvement: Vietnam War - Wikipedia and no **** it involved communist forces, but you asked how it started, which was with French meddling in Indochina. We took over after the French pulled out. The communists certainly weren't good guys, but the poor were driven into their arms by the western backed ruling classes in those countries.

But why did the American Imperialists support and finance the restoration of French colonialism in Vietnam after the Japanese were defeated, and wanted to nuke the Vietnamese and bomb China instead of supporting the Vietnamese against the French? And it's quite ironic that Nguyen Ai Quoc even unsuccessfully asked the Yanks for help against the French colonialists in their war of independence.

And why didn't the American Imperialists abide by the Geneva agreement to hold a referendum to unite Vietnam after the French were kicked out, instead of attacking the Vietnamese and supporting a corrupt police regime in a civil war?
And what threat were the Vietnamese to the Yanks anyway?

At least the goodies won and the baddies skulked back home to build this wall as a sad memorial to complete futility and stupidity.
Lest We Forget.
But alas the American Imperialists still keep making the same mistakes again and again and again and again.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So to sum up... The Bible story of Adam is wrong? If so, then you don't believe the Bible. Did Isaac or Ishmael get taken to get sacrificed by Abraham? Baha'is say Ishmael. Therefore, Baha'is don't believe the Bible story is true. The New Testament says that Jesus rose from the dead and had a flesh and bone body. Baha'is don't believe that. So you can say how much you love all the messengers and how you love all the Scriptures of all the religions, but... it's just words. In actuality, you don't. And why the big fuss. Lots of people don't believe them to be true. The problem is that Baha'is keep pretending that they do believe they are true.

Hello again CG, I have had a medical emergency, the Old retina in the right eye decided it no longer wanted to be attached to the back of the eye Thus a quick 800km dive for an operation, now stuck and can not drive home! Such is life

The Baha'i Writings are clear about Biblical Stories. The genesis story of creation is deep Metaphor, as it the stories of sacrifice of Isaac and Ishmael that found fruition in both Jesus the Christ and the Bab. The resurrection is also deep Metaphor. Abdul'baha has given the creation story it in greater detail at this link - Tablet of the Universe , again this Tablet is material words explaining deep spiritual concepts, so again it is also Metaphor for us to unravel in heart and soul.

We both get to choose how we try to understand these spiritual Metaphors, or if we choose to think they are not metaphors.

Knowing they are metaphor allows us to see the same stories in all of Gods Messengers, it means that we take away the exclusive Material aspect of the body of the Messenger and see them as they really are, they are One and all the 'Spirit of the Age'.

Maybe I should not talk to you though? I get warned when I give you answers to questions you have asked, that it is an attempt of conversion.

All the best and Regards Tony