The Easyway to Stop Smoking

[Poisonshady313]

Thanks sooo much!

You are very welcome!

Does this mean you're going to try Allen Carr's Easyway?

A stupid question but does Judaism permit smoking?

Not a stupid question at all.

I think something is written somewhere about not harming one's self... I don't believe it's forbidden in the same way as, for example, pork. I've seen Rabbis smoke....

Though I've heard that the filters in some cigarettes contain pig's blood. The ingredients aren't listed on packs of cigarettes in this country. This info came from a Dutch researcher.

I'm sorry I don't have more info on that subject... but here's a wikipedia link that might be helpful:

Smoking in Jewish law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Poisonshady313]

Little things that I think help in quitting include:
- make list of pros and cons for smoking. Be honest about the pros. Have 2nd list for pros and cons for non-smoking. This list alone will do next to nothing before you quit, but after say 7 days of non-smoking, the benefits (pros) on non-smoking will be motivational.

There are no pros to smoking.

I'm going to repeat that.

There are no pros to smoking.

I believe that believing that there are pros to smoking is part of why your first two attempts didn't stick. If you believe there's something in it for you that you're "giving up" or sacrificing, staying quit permanently is going to be harder than it needs to be. There will always be an excuse in your back pocket telling you why it's ok to light up again. Nonsmokers don't feel that way. And smokers who become nonsmokers shouldn't feel that way.

- Think of stopping as an indefinite break. Perhaps one day you'll go back, and perhaps that day never comes. Psychologically, 'quitting' is I believe challenging. Sure this is coming from someone who's returned twice, but I say my experience on this has little to do with point I'm making.

I'm sorry you feel that way. A person who quits smoking should feel confident that they've done it, and live as a non-smoker. There's no reason why smoking should have a hold on you for the rest of your life, where even if you're not actually smoking, you fear slipping, or worse, take it for granted that it's going to happen.

Allen Carr's advice: Think of stopping as escaping from a trap. There's no reason, once you break free, to put yourself back into that trap. Celebrate the freedom of being a non-smoker, and understand that once you extinguish that final cigarette, you're free, and no stress, temptation, trigger, or challenge is ever going to make you smoke again.

I'll also just add that cold turkey is way I'd recommend the most. It costs nothing, and it helps in many ways down the road. But, it is not for everyone, and so primary suggestion will always be from me, do what works. Try them all. Point is to get 'there' to place of non-smoking. There is no one method better than the others. There is simply what works for you and peace of mind that comes from overcoming that addiction.

Actually, there are ways that are better than others. The problem is, smokers are told to try methods that are not designed to work. And when they start smoking again, they condition themselves to believe that quitting is terribly challenging, and that it may not ever happen. And so they take a "throw everything against the wall and see what sticks" approach which is:

1. Dangerous. The side effects of some of those products out there are pretty damn scary. In some cases, as horrible as it sounds, the dangers of smoking are a walk in the park next to what I've read on the websites that promote these methods. I wouldn't ever recommend such methods by saying "give it a shot, see if it works for you."

2. Expensive. Why should someone pay hundreds of dollars for a three month supply of a product that has less than a 10% chance of working? Only to turn up a few months, or perhaps even a few years later, saying "That worked last time... let me try it again." Or going from method to method... from the gum, to the patch, to the medicine, to the laser treatment....

3. Discouraging. Between the risks, and the expense, and the whole "not working", a person can be made to believe that they'll never quit. They could develop a whole "I'm powerless over my addiction" attitude that will guarantee they'll never stop smoking.


Easyway isn't nearly as popular as it should be, and that's a shame. If there are 9 ways of doing something that are incredibly hard and likely to fail, and 1 way of doing something that's incredibly easy and likely to succeed, why should we be telling people that those 9 methods are just as good as that 1 useful one?

Like you said, do what works. Not what doesn't.

The few people that succeed using the gum, or the patch, or chantix... I'm very impressed by them. They took the hard road and made it to their destination anyway. At some great risk, and at a financial expense that not everyone can afford. I'm happy and proud that they've become non-smokers, but I couldn't be comfortable recommending that path to any smoker.

Like swimming the Atlantic Ocean. There's no reason to do it. There are easier ways, less riskier ways, of getting from one continent to the next... and I'd be amazed and impressed by the fellow who manages to do it. But I wouldn't ever recommend it.

The Easy Way is really and truly easy. And it really and truly works. It's the only method out there with a success rate higher than 50%

Based on the full money back guarantee offered by the Easy Way clinic, there is something closer to a 90% success rate.

Studies by some independent organizations give it as much as an 80% success rate, and never lower than 50%.


There are so many stories of people who tried quitting again, and again, and again, and again, and they don't know what else to do, and someone recommends easyway, and it finally works, and the thing they say is "I wish someone had told me about this sooner!"

Wouldn't it be nice if there were more stories where people didn't have to spend so much money and put their health at so much risk with those other methods because easyway stopped them smoking permanently, enjoyably, easily, immediately, and inexpensively?

 

[Poisonshady313]

I hope you understand that I would never discourage anyone who has chosen a path towards stopping smoking, even if it's a path I wouldn't recommend. I don't fault anyone who has tried those other methods for trying those other methods.

What I don't approve of is enforcing a belief in those who try to quit smoking that it has to be a challenge. It's the sort of belief that makes people fail, or worse, not try at all.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I also don't approve of someone telling a smoker NOT to try Easyway. There is literally no reason not to try Easyway.

 

[Acim]

There are no pros to smoking.

I'm going to repeat that.

There are no pros to smoking.

I'll disagree with you on this.

I believe that believing that there are pros to smoking is part of why your first two attempts didn't stick.

You know not of what you speak and I'll kindly ask you to back off of this rhetoric. This is a battle you will not win.

If you believe there's something in it for you that you're "giving up" or sacrificing, staying quit permanently is going to be harder than it needs to be.

Yeah, been there, done that. I truly believe I have far greater knowledge on this topic than you can dream of. You might want to quit going here.

There will always be an excuse in your back pocket telling you why it's ok to light up again. Nonsmokers don't feel that way. And smokers who become nonsmokers shouldn't feel that way.

Telling people how they should or shouldn't feel is not a game, I'm willing to play. And to the degree I would play it for sake of 'devil's advocate' - I would say there is no substance on this planet that is 'good' to take up. I don't drink now and never has been something I got into all that much. I also avoid prescription drugs or even over the counter drugs in every way possible. In the rhetoric of 'you shouldn't do that' - I would say these all fit in that boat. In the rhetoric that says we humans are free to do what we desire, I'm pretty much in boat of live and let live. I pity that you apparently are not in that boat.

I'm sorry you feel that way. A person who quits smoking should feel confident that they've done it, and live as a non-smoker. There's no reason why smoking should have a hold on you for the rest of your life, where even if you're not actually smoking, you fear slipping, or worse, take it for granted that it's going to happen.

You are misconstruing what I've stated and fitting it in I think with rationale that helps you make sense of my situation. I've quit cold turkey and have demonstrated I can quit at any time (I desire to). If I choose to take it up again, I will feel comfortable in that decision. Perhaps not over abundantly comfortable, but akin to why I might take prescription drugs that have very obvious, and quite detrimental side effects.

Allen Carr's advice: Think of stopping as escaping from a trap. There's no reason, once you break free, to put yourself back into that trap. Celebrate the freedom of being a non-smoker, and understand that once you extinguish that final cigarette, you're free, and no stress, temptation, trigger, or challenge is ever going to make you smoke again.

Sounds pretty, but I'm curious what Carr says about either those who relapse or choose to use again. If he's like you and thinks there is no reason ever to go back, I find that impractical and not helpful to those who may choose to imbibe again either from free choice or addiction issues.

Actually, there are ways that are better than others.

Actually there aren't.

The problem is, smokers are told to try methods that are not designed to work. And when they start smoking again, they condition themselves to believe that quitting is terribly challenging, and that it may not ever happen. And so they take a "throw everything against the wall and see what sticks" approach which is:

1. Dangerous. The side effects of some of those products out there are pretty damn scary. In some cases, as horrible as it sounds, the dangers of smoking are a walk in the park next to what I've read on the websites that promote these methods. I wouldn't ever recommend such methods by saying "give it a shot, see if it works for you."

Cold turkey doesn't encounter this issue. I've never tried another method other than cold turkey. As I stated earlier, I highly recommend going cold turkey, but am not quite righteous enough to say it is best method around. It worked for me.

2. Expensive. Why should someone pay hundreds of dollars for a three month supply of a product that has less than a 10% chance of working? Only to turn up a few months, or perhaps even a few years later, saying "That worked last time... let me try it again." Or going from method to method... from the gum, to the patch, to the medicine, to the laser treatment....

Cold turkey doesn't deal with this. Pretty sure my method was less expensive than whatever Carr is selling.

3. Discouraging. Between the risks, and the expense, and the whole "not working", a person can be made to believe that they'll never quit. They could develop a whole "I'm powerless over my addiction" attitude that will guarantee they'll never stop smoking.

Cold turkey could run into this. I haven't run into this, but I could see this occurring. No method that I'm aware of has 100% ability to get around this perceived problem. Hence the reason that relapse or choice to use again cannot be seen as 'end of world' type attitude. Any good counselor type knows this. While also realizing that encouragement is something to stick with, even while other family / friends may abandon the person with addiction having only so much patience with the problem.

Easyway isn't nearly as popular as it should be, and that's a shame. If there are 9 ways of doing something that are incredibly hard and likely to fail, and 1 way of doing something that's incredibly easy and likely to succeed, why should we be telling people that those 9 methods are just as good as that 1 useful one?

I'll take cold turkey over Easyway, but that is just my experience. I would suggest going with what works, and I've seen almost every method I've ever heard of working for at least someone.

Like you said, do what works. Not what doesn't.

Which I'll say is subjective, and ought to be left up to individual. In the methods I'm familiar with, it is psychological game being played. I realize many will speak to physiological treatment that is impacting the process of quitting with certain methods, and I think there is some of that, but even cold turkey has ways of working with the quitting process in physiological way, just nothing that relies on another substance as aid to get the physiological effect. I truly believe deep breathing in first 3 days is offsetting physiological aspects of the habit. Of the 3 times I stopped, there was one time that I for sure did this, and other 2 times I did this half heartedly. In those other 2 times, the withdrawal was more challenging at a certain step in first 3 days. Actually with last time I stopped, the first day was surprisingly easy, the 2nd day less easy than first, and 3rd day the hardest. But after that in all my experiences, it is rather smooth sailing as long as one is wise to avoid rather obvious triggers in first 30 days.

The few people that succeed using the gum, or the patch, or chantix... I'm very impressed by them. They took the hard road and made it to their destination anyway. At some great risk, and at a financial expense that not everyone can afford. I'm happy and proud that they've become non-smokers, but I couldn't be comfortable recommending that path to any smoker.

I'll always suggest that those methods be consider if there is appeal, and person feels (for whatever reason) that it stands chance of working. When anyone elevates another method over another, I'll likely wish to discuss cost, replacing one addiction for another, and possible other ideas. I seriously haven't seen anything that rivals cold turkey and really isn't a close 2nd. But when having me as ex-smoker stand next to say Chantix person who is now ex-smoker, it becomes pointless to discuss which method is better when observable situation is we are both ex-smokers and that is the end game.

Like swimming the Atlantic Ocean. There's no reason to do it. There are easier ways, less riskier ways, of getting from one continent to the next... and I'd be amazed and impressed by the fellow who manages to do it. But I wouldn't ever recommend it.

From your earlier rhetoric, I would argue in the vein of there is no reason to go from one continent to another, and you shouldn't do it. People have died in all known ways of going from one continent to the other, therefore it shouldn't be done. Which is not rhetoric I'm real comfortable stating, but works for devils advocate debate and refutation of sorts to what you were saying earlier. I'd much prefer to leave decision of going from one continent to another up to the person that desires that.

The Easy Way is really and truly easy. And it really and truly works. It's the only method out there with a success rate higher than 50%

Based on the full money back guarantee offered by the Easy Way clinic, there is something closer to a 90% success rate.

Studies by some independent organizations give it as much as an 80% success rate, and never lower than 50%.

Are you willing to say it has higher success rate than cold turkey? I don't believe it does, although it pretty much seems like another man's version of cold turkey and capitalizing on his psychologically for stopping.

I say go with this method if it appeals to you, but touting it as best of what's around can be misleading.

Here is link to the 1 star ratings from Amazon about Allen Carr's EasyWay method (reviews of the book, I think). Some of these are disputing the statistics you are referencing.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I'll disagree with you on this.

What do you believe is a pro for smoking?

You know not of what you speak and I'll kindly ask you to back off of this rhetoric. This is a battle you will not win.

Yeah, been there, done that. I truly believe I have far greater knowledge on this topic than you can dream of. You might want to quit going here.

I'm very familiar with Allen Carr's method, and I truly believe he had a far greater knowledge on this topic than you.

You're wonderful at telling people how to attempt to quit smoking. Allen Carr is wonderful at telling people how to actually quit smoking.

Telling people how they should or shouldn't feel is not a game, I'm willing to play. And to the degree I would play it for sake of 'devil's advocate' - I would say there is no substance on this planet that is 'good' to take up. I don't drink now and never has been something I got into all that much. I also avoid prescription drugs or even over the counter drugs in every way possible. In the rhetoric of 'you shouldn't do that' - I would say these all fit in that boat. In the rhetoric that says we humans are free to do what we desire, I'm pretty much in boat of live and let live. I pity that you apparently are not in that boat.

I'm not talking about human beings making their own choices about what they put into their body. If a person wants to go on smoking for the rest of his life, let him. It's his life. I don't go recommending this book to people who are happy and content being smokers. It's none of my business.

I'm talking about a person who wants to quit smoking for good, as opposed to your talk of a smoker taking an "indefinite break".

You are misconstruing what I've stated and fitting it in I think with rationale that helps you make sense of my situation. I've quit cold turkey and have demonstrated I can quit at any time (I desire to). If I choose to take it up again, I will feel comfortable in that decision. Perhaps not over abundantly comfortable, but akin to why I might take prescription drugs that have very obvious, and quite detrimental side effects.

Do you think that smokers who want to quit smoking don't actually want to quit permanently?

You might want to smoke once in a while, but I don't at all believe your philosophy is helpful for the person who never wants to smoke again.

Sounds pretty, but I'm curious what Carr says about either those who relapse or choose to use again. If he's like you and thinks there is no reason ever to go back, I find that impractical and not helpful to those who may choose to imbibe again either from free choice or addiction issues.

From a chapter towards the end of the book:

"No smoker, given the chance of going back to the time before he got hooked, with the knowledge he has know, would want to start."

He doesn't fault people for falling into the nicotine trap to begin with, but once they're fully aware of it and outside of it, they'd have to be a fool to fall back into it.

The fact that you so strongly believe there is some sort of benefit to smoke is very strange.

You're the perfect person to turn to if someone wanted to learn how to take an indefinite break from smoking. If someone wants to stop smoking permanently, Allen Carr is the perfect person to turn to.

Actually there aren't.

I'll disagree with you on this.

Cold turkey doesn't encounter this issue. I've never tried another method other than cold turkey. As I stated earlier, I highly recommend going cold turkey, but am not quite righteous enough to say it is best method around. It worked for me.

Going cold turkey doesn't address the stress and anxiety caused by the fear of becoming a non-smoker. The fear of failing to quit, the fear of relapse, the fear of experiencing life without cigarettes. It "worked" for you (I use quotation marks because obviously, permanently quitting wasn't your goal). It doesn't work for a great many people, because rather than ending their desire to smoke, they're forcing themselves to stop doing something they think they need, want, or enjoy.

Like Carr says, there are people who can make love standing on a hammock, but there are easier ways of doing it.

Cold turkey doesn't deal with this. Pretty sure my method was less expensive than whatever Carr is selling.

The cost of however many cigarettes purchased by a person using cold turkey after the first time he or she "quits" is probably higher than the price of Carr's book.

Cold turkey could run into this. I haven't run into this, but I could see this occurring. No method that I'm aware of has 100% ability to get around this perceived problem. Hence the reason that relapse or choice to use again cannot be seen as 'end of world' type attitude.

It's not seen as the end of the world, but Carr does go on about how there's no such thing as "just one cigarette". An expression that applies: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. If a person has doubts or forgets, he should remind himself of why he decided to quit smoking in the first place, and perhaps re-read a chapter or two.

Many other methods aren't designed to work. They're designed to get you to keep trying and trying and trying, spending more and more money to work. With Carr's book, it's designed to work, and once you've purchased the book, it's yours forever and you can reference it as needed. With cold turkey, you're using willpower.... and that's another method of stopping smoking that's not designed to work. It leaves a person with all the same myths and illusions about smoking that will leave them moping and anxious when they feel like they're deprived of something they wrongly believe is of any benefit to them.

Tell a person he's dying of a disease caused by smoking, and on rare occasion it might scare him out of smoking, but most likely he'll light up another cig the moment he steps out of a hospital. I've seen smokers smoking only a few hours after their chemotherapy treatment for lung cancer caused by smoking. So many powerful reasons why a person should stop smoking, and the smoker being fully aware of those reasons will still go on smoking because he believes there is some sort of benefit he's getting out of it.

Going cold turkey.... though it may work in a few rare cases, it's just a relapse waiting to happen. An indefinite break. You said so yourself: "Think of stopping as an indefinite break." For a person who's only looking for a break, that's fine. For someone trying to quit permanently, it's likely to fail.

While also realizing that encouragement is something to stick with, even while other family / friends may abandon the person with addiction having only so much patience with the problem.

I'm not saying that relapse is the end of the world. I'm saying, one should never start a path to quit smoking expecting to relapse. Doing so makes relapse a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you set out to quit smoking for good with the thought "How long until I fail?", you're setting yourself up for failure from the start.

I'll take cold turkey over Easyway, but that is just my experience. I would suggest going with what works, and I've seen almost every method I've ever heard of working for at least someone.

There are enough people in this world that you're bound to see that. But those other methods are harder than necessary and are likely to fail. For example, Nicorette Gum has a success rate between 7 and 13%. That means 87-93% of the people who spend money on a three month supply are going to go right back to smoking at some point in the near future. If there are a million people who use it, and 7% succeed, we're talking about 7,000 people it works for. (and that may only be taking into account the success they have as of one year. Who knows how many of them fail perhaps a couple of years down the line?) That seems to impress you enough to disregard 99,300 people it didn't work for.

If "indefinite breaks" are good enough for you, then consider this: The period between extinguishing a cigarette and lighting up the next one is a time when a smoker isn't smoking. So their success at quitting is 100%. Of course, they quit at least 20 times a day... but if it works, it works, right?

The reason I mentioned Nicorette Gum is that Allen Carr was on a British news show along with a person from ASH, an organization that relies on scare tactics and nicotine replacement therapy to get people to stop smoking... and Carr asks about the success rates of NRT. The ASH representative says "4 times more effective than willpower", to which Carr replies "But willpower doesn't work. So it's 4 times better than nothing."

But consider it for a moment... you advocate cold turkey (which is basically willpower) because it "works" for you... and if it's 4 times less effective than a 7% success rate, how do you hope to suggest that quitting cold turkey would be anything more than an indefinite break?

 

[Poisonshady313]

Which I'll say is subjective, and ought to be left up to individual. In the methods I'm familiar with, it is psychological game being played. I realize many will speak to physiological treatment that is impacting the process of quitting with certain methods, and I think there is some of that, but even cold turkey has ways of working with the quitting process in physiological way, just nothing that relies on another substance as aid to get the physiological effect. I truly believe deep breathing in first 3 days is offsetting physiological aspects of the habit. Of the 3 times I stopped, there was one time that I for sure did this, and other 2 times I did this half heartedly. In those other 2 times, the withdrawal was more challenging at a certain step in first 3 days. Actually with last time I stopped, the first day was surprisingly easy, the 2nd day less easy than first, and 3rd day the hardest. But after that in all my experiences, it is rather smooth sailing as long as one is wise to avoid rather obvious triggers in first 30 days.

The success rates are out there. All you need to do is find them and see what doesn't work. Or what works 7% of the time. That's a hell of a thing to trust your health and well being on. Would you get on an airplane that had a 93% chance of crashing into a mountain? I sure wouldn't, nor would I say "You might just be one of those 7% if only you'll give it a try"

I'll always suggest that those methods be consider if there is appeal, and person feels (for whatever reason) that it stands chance of working.

You might also suggest that doing a rain dance will successfully produce rain.

When anyone elevates another method over another, I'll likely wish to discuss cost, replacing one addiction for another, and possible other ideas. I seriously haven't seen anything that rivals cold turkey and really isn't a close 2nd.

Check out Easyway. I'm sure you can either find it online or borrow it from a library so you won't have to pay for it. It's actually a lot like cold turkey. No drugs, no substitutes. The difference is, it liberates you from the fear of failure, and the fear of life as a non-smoker. It eliminates the desire to smoke, so that it doesn't rely on willpower.

But when having me as ex-smoker stand next to say Chantix person who is now ex-smoker, it becomes pointless to discuss which method is better when observable situation is we are both ex-smokers and that is the end game.

A rare success is still a success, which is why I take nothing away from the person who succeeds. However, the word "rare" makes me inclined to never recommend it to someone who is looking for recommendations on how to stop smoking. I've seen my fair share of Chantix users who tell of how well it worked so many years ago, that now that they're smoking again, they're going back to Chantix again.

Obviously, it didn't work, otherwise you wouldn't need to spend $500 risking awful side effects for three months hoping that it'll work for good this time.

A "better method" is one that is less likely to result in relapse for any given period of time.

Being a smoker is not like having diabetes, which can never be cured, only managed.

If you want to become a permanent non-smoker, the easiest way is Easyway.

From your earlier rhetoric, I would argue in the vein of there is no reason to go from one continent to another, and you shouldn't do it. People have died in all known ways of going from one continent to the other, therefore it shouldn't be done.

I never said that the risk of failure is enough to reject a method.

I'm saying that a method that isn't even designed to work shouldn't be recommended.

Sure, there have been fatal plane crashes... but you know what? Flying still considered the safest way to travel. That's because you're more likely to safely reach your destination.

If you want to get from the US to the UK, you go ahead and take a rowboat if it makes you happy. It'll require a lot of energy, it'll take a really long time, and hopefully you won't starve to death or capsize in a storm and drown. I would recommend flying. It'll get you there quicker, safer, and with less chance of dying en route.

I'd much prefer to leave decision of going from one continent to another up to the person that desires that.

I'm not arguing whether or not a person should decide to quit smoking. I'm not even telling smokers that they should quit smoking.

I'm saying that given the decision to quit smoking, there is a way of getting there that's not as hard as the others.

Are you willing to say it has higher success rate than cold turkey?

Yes.

I don't believe it does, although it pretty much seems like another man's version of cold turkey and capitalizing on his psychologically for stopping.

The difference is between going at it with the right perspective from an expert on getting people to stop smoking, or relying on willpower. I'll recommend Easyway over willpower every time.

I say go with this method if it appeals to you, but touting it as best of what's around can be misleading.

I diagree. The other lesser methods have the advantage of being well funded and well advertised. That doesn't make them the best. Doesn't even make them good. It just makes them more common.

If 100 people try Easyway and 80 of them quit, and 1000000 people try the gum and 7,000 of them quit, you see it as 80 vs 7,000. I see it as 80% success rate vs 7% success rate.

Here is link to the 1 star ratings from Amazon about Allen Carr's EasyWay method (reviews of the book, I think). Some of these are disputing the statistics you are referencing.

Yeah. 22 one star ratings out of 827 ratings. Meanwhile, 725 five star ratings out of 827 ratings.

2.7% give it the lowest rating. 96% give it the highest rating.

I'd say your attempt to throw statistics in my face kinda backfired.

 

[Poisonshady313]

And one of those one star ratings was an accident, because their review said this:

I smoked for 20 years,
I cant believe I quit a year ago. It really worked for me. I realized that every craving was caused by the last craving. There is no satisfaction in smoking. It only causes a new craving. I quit Sept 30, 1996.

Bunch of people say "save your money, just quit". If that worked, they would have quit already and wouldn't be spending money trying to do it.


Try reading some of the five star reviews.

 

[Poisonshady313]

About the one poor rating that talks about statistics:

Guy was talking about a tiny sample of his friends.

If I give it to two people, and it works for one of them, that means I've personally seen it work only 50% of the time.

Ask any scientist how meaningful a sample size of 2 is, and you'll get laughed at.

Let's go bigger.

99,300 out of a million people who try the gum are going to fail. If all 50 of the people you know who use the gum failed, as far as you're concerned, the gum has a 100% failure rate.

I hope you understand why this comment:

Here is link to the 1 star ratings from Amazon about Allen Carr's EasyWay method (reviews of the book, I think). Some of these are disputing the statistics you are referencing.

Isn't nearly as meaningful as you hoped it might be.

 

[Acim]

What do you believe is a pro for smoking?

Ask me again in another post. Only reason I hesitate is because I'll just note that whatever pro I come up with, I'll admit that there are other ways to achieve that effect, other than smoking. So, there may not be any unique pros to smoking, but is not the point I was making that started this tangent. Most substances I'm familiar with do not have unique pros.

I'm very familiar with Allen Carr's method, and I truly believe he had a far greater knowledge on this topic than you.

I'll grant that Carr has greater knowledge on this topic than me, but not so sure it is far greater, and doesn't matter with point I originally made with you. If you are not even a smoker and not forthcoming about addictions you have or persons you've lived with or formal education you've had in this area, then not sure what your stake in this is in terms of 'knowledge.' The gesture of passing along method you think works, I find commendable. The idea that this method is better than all others only sets this up for sense of failure.

You're wonderful at telling people how to attempt to quit smoking. Allen Carr is wonderful at telling people how to actually quit smoking.

Not sure what you are saying exactly. I have helped people quit, but would be quick to give them the credit where it is due. Ultimately this is a willpower issue. The people who Allen Carr's methods didn't work with initially would be claiming that his method was not helpful. While just like any method, and its supporters, people might lay blame on the quitter, rather than the method. Which becomes a pointless game, fast.

When I quit smoking, I was done smoking then. You can paint my choice to smoke again however you wish, but it is simply not an argument you'll win. I'd be glad to challenge likes of an Allen Carr to pick up smoking again for 3 months and see who can get off of it quicker. Perhaps he'd win, but in this pointless debate, I think I'd stand pretty good chance, because I've demonstrated to 'all who know me' the ability to stop via willpower. People that do know me, think my willpower is amazing, as many do need some outside assistance to make it go. I tend to say it is not so hard once desire is there to stop.

I don't go recommending this book to people who are happy and content being smokers. It's none of my business.

I'm talking about a person who wants to quit smoking for good, as opposed to your talk of a smoker taking an "indefinite break".

Given all that I understand about counseling and addiction, what I'm advocating makes more sense. Like all things, there will be those who perhaps have more experience, knowledge, whatever in this field and they will advocate 'stop for good.' My indefinite break covers that, but is a psychology that I didn't make up and got from respected counselor type on how to truly make overcoming an addiction work.

Do you think that smokers who want to quit smoking don't actually want to quit permanently?

You might want to smoke once in a while, but I don't at all believe your philosophy is helpful for the person who never wants to smoke again.

I believe all people who have desire to invoke cessation of a substance are in mindset where they never want to use it again. Thus, they are saying they wish to quit permanently. But it simply is not practical to think there is a method that can accomplish that. If even one person trying Carr's method has gone back to smoking later on, at any point, then his method like all others I'm aware of, would have to be met with reality that there may be a sense of relapse. But in some cases, relapse isn't I would say best words. There are people who are essentially itching after 30 days to get back to using. On the outside-in, they may come off as pretty convincing to most (untrained) people like they desire to be permanently quitting. To trained persons, the signs of their desire to use again are kinda obvious. And point I'm saying is these type of people are what relapse is all about. The people who are quit, stay quit, and then chose to use again are not necessarily relapsing. To a degree, yes they are, but it is vastly different than the person who really never quit before, and was displaying signs as if they weren't over the addiction.

From a chapter towards the end of the book:

"No smoker, given the chance of going back to the time before he got hooked, with the knowledge he has know, would want to start."

He doesn't fault people for falling into the nicotine trap to begin with, but once they're fully aware of it and outside of it, they'd have to be a fool to fall back into it.

Thus we perpetuate a blame game that isn't all about letting people live the life they desire to live.

The fact that you so strongly believe there is some sort of benefit to smoke is very strange.

Again, you are misconstruing what I have said. I don't believe strongly there is unique benefit to smoking, but do believe the reason that people stay smoking is only partially habit, and is mostly desire to keep going with perceived benefits. These benefits can, I would say rather easily, be downplayed by non smokers and are even more downplayed by (some) ex-smokers.

I can't think of pro that I've found for smoking that outweighs the pros for non-smoking. But to say there are none truly undermines human intelligence and experience(s).

You're the perfect person to turn to if someone wanted to learn how to take an indefinite break from smoking. If someone wants to stop smoking permanently, Allen Carr is the perfect person to turn to.

Believe this all you desire. I'm guessing if me and Mr. Carr met, they're would be little disagreement between him and I, unless he is in vein of righteous jerk who can't see any method as good as his. I'd be really surprised if he didn't have inkling to say, 'if it works for you and you are a non smoker, then I honor that.' If instead, he came across with something like, 'well you may think you've stopped, but until you try my method, you're just deluding yourself. I bet you'll smoke again. Too bad for you.' Something along those lines and me and Mr. Carr might have disagreement, but I'm betting like most ex-smokers who are intelligent about this stuff, he doesn't really care what method is used, as long as it works for the individual.

 

[Acim]

Going cold turkey doesn't address the stress and anxiety caused by the fear of becoming a non-smoker.

It can. There are several ways this can get addressed by anyone wishing to quit cold turkey. Ways that come to my mind are:
- talk with other ex-smokers about how they handled this
- talk with a doctor or psychologist about this
- find local groups or online groups who provide support in this area
- pray, meditate, seek inner guidance

The fear of failing to quit, the fear of relapse, the fear of experiencing life without cigarettes. It "worked" for you (I use quotation marks because obviously, permanently quitting wasn't your goal). It doesn't work for a great many people, because rather than ending their desire to smoke, they're forcing themselves to stop doing something they think they need, want, or enjoy.

Your allusions to my not quitting permanently as if that is my intention are your own personal filter BS at work here and tells me you know next to nothing about what you are purporting here.

Getting over the fear stuff is met with a little work up front, but there are ways to deal with this that can be drawn out (and which may be helpful for some individuals) or may be very short lived based on what is the honest desire and is now that time to give stopping a real go. Quitting cold turkey is a little like jumping into cold pool of water. We might think of many reasons for not doing it, and ascribe lots of associated fears with getting wet, getting cold, not every getting warm again, and so on and so forth. So some might ease in instead. Others may dip fingers in and rub cold water all over them. Some may put on more clothes. And then there are those who will jump in and take care of the perceived fears in one fell swoop. While this analogy doesn't explain all nuances of quitting smoking, it addresses that the fears people have can be overcome by just 'doing it.' Stop thinking about stopping, and just stop.

The cost of however many cigarettes purchased by a person using cold turkey after the first time he or she "quits" is probably higher than the price of Carr's book.

Non sequitur. The cost of person who 'quits' after reading Carr's book but then starts up again by choice, and then attempts to quit again, is not going to be less than person who goes the cold turkey route. So, cold turkey will always trump Carr's method.

It's not seen as the end of the world, but Carr does go on about how there's no such thing as "just one cigarette". An expression that applies: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. If a person has doubts or forgets, he should remind himself of why he decided to quit smoking in the first place, and perhaps re-read a chapter or two.

And I assure you, no method Carr can come up with, will prevent certain people from using again. The whole logic of "shame on you" is ridiculously outdate methodology that isn't exactly helping. For some it might work, but for majority who can essentially reverse willpower, the pros of non-smoking will not overcome the desire.

With cold turkey, you're using willpower.... and that's another method of stopping smoking that's not designed to work. It leaves a person with all the same myths and illusions about smoking that will leave them moping and anxious when they feel like they're deprived of something they wrongly believe is of any benefit to them.

Either you know nothing about cold turkey, which seems most plausible to me right now, or Carr knows little about it and you are feeding off his logic. I don't believe the latter, but will say it is possibility. I'm sure if we both dig around online, we'll find stats to back up what we're both saying. But my overall position is, a) go with what works, b) no method is inherently significantly better than another and c) once stopped, the method will not matter, while the result will. So, my a, b and c, all cover Carr's approach. While your words so far put Carr's method on pedestal that not only leaves no room for any other method, but downplays them so much that such righteousness is I believe hurting the Carr cause, since his method has nowhere to go but down.

Going cold turkey.... though it may work in a few rare cases, it's just a relapse waiting to happen. An indefinite break. You said so yourself: "Think of stopping as an indefinite break." For a person who's only looking for a break, that's fine. For someone trying to quit permanently, it's likely to fail.

This is where you are incredibly mistaken. Feel free to back up with stats that cold turkey is likely to fail. It is not something that has worked in few rare cases, but is closer to 75% the way that most ex-smokers go. Where am I getting that number from, how about this Wikipedia article. Which incidentally mentions Allen Carr, along with about 6 others, in its (advanced) cold turkey section. I hope you do realize that Carr is not the first person to play off this idea of quitting through own willpower.

I'm not saying that relapse is the end of the world. I'm saying, one should never start a path to quit smoking expecting to relapse. Doing so makes relapse a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you set out to quit smoking for good with the thought "How long until I fail?", you're setting yourself up for failure from the start.

I've already addressed this. No method I'm aware of sets one up for failure and is untrained way of understanding how relapse or choice to use again actually works.

But consider it for a moment... your advocate cold turkey (which is basically willpower) because it "works" for you... and if it's 4 times less effective than a 7% success rate, how do you hope to suggest that quitting cold turkey would be anything more than an indefinite break?

A - Because stats you are using suggesting 4 times less than 7% success rate are incredibly far off base with most studies you'll fine online, including link I've already provided
B - Carr's method is willpower oriented. I think I realize he attempts to claim otherwise, though if he is really claiming otherwise, then there is bit of deception at work.
C - Willpower is what it will always come down to. I realize this will be matter of ongoing dispute, but I'm putting my eggs in this basket and sticking to it for indefinite amount of time.

You can spin my 'indefinite break' rhetoric however that pleases you. I understand level of commitment I have to staying stopped and how that actually works, rather than how others may try to convey this to help people get over perceived enormous hurdle. You so far aren't really saying anything to change my mind on this and I don't really seek to take anything away from Carr's method. I'm glad it works for many (but apparently not all) and I hope those who are drawn to his method of quitting cold turkey continue to find success. That you wish to argue it as 'best method for long term success' simply doesn't ring true with my own experience (beyond personal use) nor with research I've found online.

 

[Acim]

Some things found online about Allen Carr and cessation of smoking:

- He quit smoking after 33 years as a hundred-a-day chain smoker.
> In my calculations, this would be equivalent of 11 hours of smoking without any breaks for any purpose. Given the era he was a smoker, and where smoking was allowed (read as everywhere), I think it is possible, but seems obnoxiously high. I'm sure he's not only one to smoke this much in history.

- There were two key pieces of information that enabled Allen to quit later that day. First, the hypnotherapist told him smoking was "just nicotine addiction" which Allen had never perceived before that moment i.e. that he was an addict. Second his son John lent him a medical handbook which explained that the physical withdrawal from nicotine is just like an "empty, insecure feeling"
> I'll grant that in 1983, these would possibly be rather new ideas. In 2011, I don't know of anyone that would be surprised to realize nicotine is an addiction, and the other key piece of information is something one may realize in cessation even without doing any prep work. But in prep work I've done, it was always apparent to me, though first time I stopped was 1993.

- these two realisations crystallised in his mind just how easy it was to stop
> You won't get any disagreement from me that it is easy to stop. On this, Carr and I surely agree.

- At Allen Carr Clinics during quit-smoking sessions, smokers are allowed to continue smoking while their doubts and fears are removed, with the aim of encouraging and developing the mindset of a non-smoker before the final cigarette is extinguished.
> Thus it really is all about willpower. And is allowing people to smoke as long as desired, while prepping them to make a clean break in way that will truly work for them. Exactly how I've experienced stopping.

- Another assertion unique to Carr's method is that willpower is not required to quit smoking.
His contention was that fear of "giving up" is what causes the majority of smokers to continue smoking, thereby necessitating the smoker's perpetuation of the illusion of genuine enjoyment as a moral justification of the inherent absurdity of smoking in the face of overwhelming medical and scientific evidence of its dangers.
> Claims that his method is not about willpower is erroneous. If willpower is spun a particular, and very short sighted, misrepresentational way, then perhaps his method doesn't require willpower. But "developing the mindset of a non-smoker before the final cigarette is extinguished" is how willpower is invoked for cessation. Not the only way, but is something I brought up in my first post on this thread.

>> All these excerpts above were taken from Wikipedia page on Mr. Carr

I honestly believe the method I used was no different in essence from Carr's method, but mostly because all 3 times, I had spiritual assistance (from within) and removing the perceived fear was 'first order of business.' It simply wouldn't have happened if that step wasn't taken, but was for sure lessened after the 2nd time.

Btw, when typing in google search with terms of "allen carr method" AND "relapse," I found enough cases where people pretty much accepted that it might take more than one run to go through Carr's method and succeed. And given that this is truly about willpower (in the end), it is no surprise to me that those who stuck to it for several attempts were reporting ability to more or less stay quit, though reality is any testimonial about staying quit is as accurate as today's date.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I'll grant that Carr has greater knowledge on this topic than me, but not so sure it is far greater, and doesn't matter with point I originally made with you. If you are not even a smoker and not forthcoming about addictions you have or persons you've lived with or formal education you've had in this area, then not sure what your stake in this is in terms of 'knowledge.' The gesture of passing along method you think works, I find commendable. The idea that this method is better than all others only sets this up for sense of failure.

Carr talks about other methods and explains why smokers have difficulty quitting using them. He knows. He's tried most of them and failed. When he finally figured out what worked for him, he set out to help others using his method. And in his sessions with many thousands of smokers, he learned more about smokers and their failed attempts to quit than just about anyone. He went from a 30 year five pack a day addiction to being a non-smoker overnight. And he never smoked again. His program has done it for millions of people during the past 25 years.

Not sure what you are saying exactly. I have helped people quit, but would be quick to give them the credit where it is due. Ultimately this is a willpower issue. The people who Allen Carr's methods didn't work with initially would be claiming that his method was not helpful. While just like any method, and its supporters, people might lay blame on the quitter, rather than the method. Which becomes a pointless game, fast.

It's not a willpower issue, despite what some of the 21 critics on Amazon.com say. It's not about overpowering one's desire with the directive "I must not smoke." It's about a smoker coming to understand that there is no reason to smoke. Nobody has to stop themselves from doing anything they don't want to do.

When I quit smoking, I was done smoking then. You can paint my choice to smoke again however you wish, but it is simply not an argument you'll win. I'd be glad to challenge likes of an Allen Carr to pick up smoking again for 3 months and see who can get off of it quicker. Perhaps he'd win, but in this pointless debate, I think I'd stand pretty good chance, because I've demonstrated to 'all who know me' the ability to stop via willpower. People that do know me, think my willpower is amazing, as many do need some outside assistance to make it go. I tend to say it is not so hard once desire is there to stop.

Carr had amazing willpower, but that couldn't get him to stop smoking. As for your challenge, good luck getting someone who quit using Easyway to pick up smoking again.

Given all that I understand about counseling and addiction, what I'm advocating makes more sense. Like all things, there will be those who perhaps have more experience, knowledge, whatever in this field and they will advocate 'stop for good.' My indefinite break covers that, but is a psychology that I didn't make up and got from respected counselor type on how to truly make overcoming an addiction work.

I hope you'll forgive me if my respect for Allen Carr is higher than my respect for your counselor. This "indefinite break" business sounds to me like admitting defeat before the start. I could be wrong, and I'm sure you're sure that I'm wrong, but my understanding of Easyway leads to believe that his method actually succeeds in turning smokers into permanent non-smokers. Plenty of testimonials testify to this.

I believe all people who have desire to invoke cessation of a substance are in mindset where they never want to use it again. Thus, they are saying they wish to quit permanently. But it simply is not practical to think there is a method that can accomplish that.

I disagree.

If even one person trying Carr's method has gone back to smoking later on, at any point, then his method like all others I'm aware of, would have to be met with reality that there may be a sense of relapse.

Nobody claimed a 100% success rate. And while most of the other methods measure success in terms of only one year after stopping, Easyway isn't "most of the other methods".

I can't think of pro that I've found for smoking that outweighs the pros for non-smoking. But to say there are none truly undermines human intelligence and experience(s).

What is a pro for smoking?

Believe this all you desire. I'm guessing if me and Mr. Carr met, they're would be little disagreement between him and I, unless he is in vein of righteous jerk who can't see any method as good as his. I'd be really surprised if he didn't have inkling to say, 'if it works for you and you are a non smoker, then I honor that.' If instead, he came across with something like, 'well you may think you've stopped, but until you try my method, you're just deluding yourself. I bet you'll smoke again. Too bad for you.' Something along those lines and me and Mr. Carr might have disagreement, but I'm betting like most ex-smokers who are intelligent about this stuff, he doesn't really care what method is used, as long as it works for the individual.

The way he says it is this. People who quit using those methods do so despite those methods, not because of them. The description I used in a previous thread about 9 ways that work 10% of the time and 1 way that works 90% of the time is from Carr. He strongly advises against NRT methods, as well as what he calls "willpower methods", which he defines as any method that forces the smoker to feel that he is making some sort of sacrifice.

I seriously doubt he'd say something to the effect of "Too bad for you."

 

[Poisonshady313]

We could go on like this forever. It's basically his expertise against yours in your respective methods.

What I see as confidence, you see as arrogance
What I see as cognitive therapy, you see a willpower method in denial.


If you figure you've heard all you need to/want to about Easyway, I don't blame you.
If you decide to read his book and conclude that he's just a righteous jerk who's lying to people about not being a willpower method, that's fine.


I just hope people trying to stop smoking will give Easyway a shot without jumping to the conclusion that it's just a bunch of hype that sounds too good to be true.

I know it works. I've seen it work. Besides people to whom I've recommended the book, I've spoken to a lot of people for whom Easyway has worked. Some are only a couple months quit... some a couple of years. At least one guy I spoke to used Allen Carr 20 years ago and hasn't had the slightest desire to go back to smoking.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Rather than continue on this one on one I've been having with Acim, I'd like to try to get back to where we were on Page 4.

I'll start by sharing with you guys a video of Allen Carr briefly explaining the 4 myths of quitting cigarettes.

The four myths are

1. Smokers need willpower to quit
2. Smokers choose to smoke
3. Nicotine gum and patches work
4. Giving up is hard

Take a look:

[youtube]AgvkSoYGeS4[/youtube]
Allen Carr - 4 Myths of Cigarettes Quitting - YouTube

 

[Father Heathen]

Poisonshady, why are you so passionate about this particular guy's products?

 

[ConfusedKuri]

You are very welcome!

Does this mean you're going to try Allen Carr's Easyway?

Not a stupid question at all.

I think something is written somewhere about not harming one's self... I don't believe it's forbidden in the same way as, for example, pork. I've seen Rabbis smoke....

Though I've heard that the filters in some cigarettes contain pig's blood. The ingredients aren't listed on packs of cigarettes in this country. This info came from a Dutch researcher.

I'm sorry I don't have more info on that subject... but here's a wikipedia link that might be helpful:

Smoking in Jewish law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks a lot, especially for the one on pig blood that's kinda shocking to hear...

I haven't smoked a cigarette in almost 24 hours :yes:

 

[Poisonshady313]

Poisonshady, why are you so passionate about this particular guy's products?

I'm not entirely sure. I found the book by accident. I was just walking up and down the aisles of a bookstore, the book cover caught my attention. I thought to myself, I know a great many smokers in my life, and quitting never seemed easy, so what could he have to say? And how easy could it be if it takes about 200 pages to say it?

I had some time to kill, so I read the book. I ran out of time, hadn't finished the book yet, so I bought it, took it home, finished it.

It made an impact on me. I don't know how, I don't know why, it just did. So I figured I'd see if it was worth the $15. So I started talking to my uncle about it. He was very skeptical at first, thought the success rate claims were just to ensure book sales, and having tried so many times, so many ways to quit smoking, he was sure it wasn't easy. So I gave him my copy of the book, asked him to read the whole thing with an open mind and to follow the instructions.

It was thanksgiving when I gave him the book. In December, he told me that Carr was patting himself on the back in the first few chapters just to promote the book, but the stuff about addiction made a lot of sense to him, and he'd finish reading it soon.

Next time I heard from him was in January. He told me he put the book on hold for a bit, but one day his smoker's cough bothered him enough to get him serious about reading through to the end of the book, and that from the moment he put the book down, he knew he was done smoking forever. He couldn't believe he had gone on smoking for as long as he has, and every time he'd mention cigarettes he'd refer to them as poison. A man who nobody ever thought would stop smoking. He's been a happy non-smoker without any cravings or urges since January of 2010.

Something about the whole situation struck a chord with me, and so I bought another copy of the book, downloaded the audio book, searched out youtube videos of Allen Carr talking about his method. I have had opportunities to recommend the book, for example to a couple in the waiting room at a doctor's office arguing about one of them not being able to stop smoking and the other one had gone through a bypass surgery because of smoking and he very desperately craved a cigarette. I started talking about the book, mentioned my uncle's story, talked about how the method works... and I could see that they weren't bored or fed up with me, but they were listening attentively and wanted to hear more. I know I made an impact because the woman went ahead and wrote the title and author down so she could get herself a copy of the book.

Recently, for no apparent reason, I've been thinking a lot about it, and I've wanted to talk about it and recommend it and see it work for other people, but I refuse to approach smokers who don't explicitly mention that they're trying to quit because smokers smoking is none of my business. But if someone starts talking to me about their numerous failed quit attempts, or that they've just started thinking about trying to quit, I'll mention Easyway because I believe it's the right thing to do.

So I started a thread here, figuring smokers who want to go on smoking won't bother, people who are generally curious will ask questions, and smokers who are trying to quit will also come by and ask questions. That way, I can talk about something I'm strangely driven to talk about to people who can decide whether they want to read anything I say or not.

I don't know if that sufficiently answers your question... but there ya go.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Thanks a lot, especially for the one on pig blood that's kinda shocking to hear...

I haven't smoked a cigarette in almost 24 hours :yes:

Congrats! Keep it up.

 

[ConfusedKuri]

Thank youuu