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The Four Dirty Secrets Against Darwin Evolution

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
You just don't believe it was in the time frame he said it was. When he said the morning and the evening were the first day, etc. - That's just not true right? And the creation story is more along the lines of a fable to you?
No, I don't believe God ever said anything or gave us a time frame. I do understand that you believe different, and that's fine. I'm simply sharing how I see things. Like I said, religious texts like the Torah, the New Testament, the Vedas, the Quran, the Book of Mormon, etc. are all written by men. They are not written by God.

In answer to your question above, I think when we read the Torah (which I love to do!) it increases our understanding to keep in mind the genre of what we are reading. Since Genesis 1 is a creation myth, I read it with the idea that it is literature designed to teach, not a history book or science text.
 

Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
What I find so troubling is the lack of acknowledgment of the efforts made to understand evolution since, which was birthed by Darwin. Its infancy has been largely unnoted here. Instead, we see the whole Darwin debunked concept being played out. It's crazy. Tweaked, expounded upon, additions made, a debugging or better organization of evolutionary events and timelines would be more accurate, in my opinion. Is evolution even in question anymore ... at all? Information has a way of helping us develop, whatever the information added may be.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
You can see an image.
Only if the word image is being used literally. In Genesis 1, it is being used figuratively. It is referring to the things we have in common with God, such as agency, the proclivity to create, a sense of right and wrong, a concept of justice, etc. Both Chrisitans and Jews have long long histories of understanding this verse in this way.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
In regards to the Miller-Urey experiment I have heard atheists, very very rarely say that it proves abiogenesis. The most cringe worthy time was when Matt Dillahunty said it. But at least in his favor he has admitted that he knows very little when it comes to the sciences. His atheism arose when he tried to find a solid logical argument to save his friend. His faith failed him. His search for a rational argument for God led to his atheism.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
ok - God has all power. He can do anything he chooses to do. Read the first few chapters of Genesis and it will tell you about the creation.

Now you explain. Don't deflect - How did you get the first life form in order for it to be able to evolve?
It was probably through the process of natural abiogenesis. All of the problems of it are not answered yet. But there is far more evidence for tha than there is for a God.

Now can you answer a question without deflection: Do you believe that your God is a liar? There will be a follow up question.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
In regards to the Miller-Urey experiment I have heard atheists, very very rarely say that it proves abiogenesis. The most cringe worthy time was when Matt Dillahunty said it. But at least in his favor he has admitted that he knows very little when it comes to the sciences. His atheism arose when he tried to find a solid logical argument to save his friend. His faith failed him. His search for a rational argument for God led to his atheism.
Yes, it seems the Miller-Urey experiment has become totemic for certain people that don’t keep up with science.

It was over 70 years ago and its achievements were quite modest. But it did indicate one natural pathway for biochemical compounds to form, so its significance really was that it opened the door to prebiotic chemistry research. Unsurprisingly, we know a lot more now than 70 years ago, but one suspects that it’s about the only piece of prebiotic research these creationists have heard of, which is why they bang on about it.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
I don't think God has said anything. I think religious texts are written by human beings.

So how do you explain the overwhelming evidence that life evolved over billions of years? And yes, I believe in God.
I don't believe we have been here for billions of years. Some things may have changed somewhat in appearance (size for instance) over many years, but not changing from one species into another.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Only if the word image is being used literally. In Genesis 1, it is being used figuratively. It is referring to the things we have in common with God, such as agency, the proclivity to create, a sense of right and wrong, a concept of justice, etc. Both Chrisitans and Jews have long long histories of understanding this verse in this way.
If you think we had to evolve into an apelike creature and then into current man. How at creation did man have any of the things you are mentioning in common with God?
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
No, I don't believe God ever said anything or gave us a time frame. I do understand that you believe different, and that's fine. I'm simply sharing how I see things. Like I said, religious texts like the Torah, the New Testament, the Vedas, the Quran, the Book of Mormon, etc. are all written by men. They are not written by God.

In answer to your question above, I think when we read the Torah (which I love to do!) it increases our understanding to keep in mind the genre of what we are reading. Since Genesis 1 is a creation myth, I read it with the idea that it is literature designed to teach, not a history book or science text.
What can it teach you if you only consider what it says to be a myth?

Aren't there other places where it says things like he spoke the world into existence? Psalms 33:6-9 Did King David just believe in myths?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes God created man. You can't explain how you get to a form of initial life for anything to be able to evolve, using evolution as your roadmap.
And you wonder why we become exasperated with you....
"evolution as a roadmap?" Population change explained by pre life chemistry?

We divide the vast field of human knowledge into categories, for convenience of study and utility. As you've been told a thousand times, abiogenesis is not evolution. One studies chemistry, the other studies the selection mechanisms that produce changes in populations. You know this, yet you continue to conflate the two just to obfuscate the issue.

Yes, everything's connected, but one doesn't need to study agriculture, botany or abiogenesis to know how bread is baked.

You say we "can't explain how you get to a form of initial life..."
Have you looked into the research? What do you know about the state of the art?
I'm guessing, from statements like this, not much.

We can observe the components of life automatically assembling themselves. Amino acids and nucleotides self assemble by simple chemistry. They polymerize into proteins and nucleic acids. Fatty acids in water form tissue bilayers -- plasma membranes -- then hollow, cell-like capsules. containing RNA, proteins, carbohydrates, &c.
These proto-cells and proto-bionts are little, self-replicating chemistry labs. As they intract with themselves and the environment, more effective metabolic and reproductive processes are selected for.
This is known chemistry. We can watch it happen. At no point is there either need of or evidence for a magical intercessor.

Granted, we have not yet observed the formation of complex, modern, endlessly reproducing cells. The best we've found -- and not without a little manipulation to speed things up, it must be admitted -- are simple, delicate, inefficient proto-bionts that only replicate through maybe a dozen generations before dying off.
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You just don't believe it was in the time frame he said it was. When he said the morning and the evening were the first day, etc. - That's just not true right? And the creation story is more along the lines of a fable to you?
It doesn't follow the known sequences of the events or processes described.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Not if the reference is figurative, which is how it has been interpreted throughout history. The link I gave you goes into how this phrase has been interpreted in both the Jewish and Christian traditions. None of them suggest it is intended to mean something you see physically.
So when it says he is the image of the invisible God you don't think that implies being able to see something?

When he says if you have SEEN me you have SEEN the Father, you think it has nothing to do with seeing?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Now you explain. Don't deflect - How did you get the first life form in order for it to be able to evolve?
If you seriously want an answer, we can have a tutorial. I'm retired; I have time. But know that the biochemistry can get complex.

Or I could link to some YouTube videos, at various levels f complexity. simpler.
I don't see overwhelming evidence regarding that [evolution].
Then you haven't looked. It's about the most abundantly and consiliently evidenced theory in all of science.
 
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