The gay-bashing capital of Europe

[Father Heathen]

What's up with Europeans allowing people to simply come in and trample their equality, rights and freedom with impunity anyway?

Another thing I don't understand is how people easily confuse race, religion and nationality. I mean seriously - Islam is obviously not a "race". If I were to convert, it wouldn't magically rewrite my genetic code, now would it.

But anyway, why the hell would anybody immigrate to a country if they hated their culture? Respect and tolerance has to be mutual; it's foolish to continuously extend it if it's not being reciprocated.

 

[Smoke]

Another thing I don't understand is how people easily confuse race, religion and nationality. I mean seriously - Islam is obviously not a "race". If I were to convert, it wouldn't magically rewrite my genetic code, now would it.

I not only didn't mention a race, I specifically criticized "Muslim extremism," "right-wing extremism," and "criminals from backwards countries."

No Muslim needs to think I'm talking about him unless he falls into one of those three categories.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I not only didn't mention a race, I specifically criticized "Muslim extremism," "right-wing extremism," and "criminals from backwards countries."

No Muslim needs to think I'm talking about him unless he falls into one of those three categories.

The perception is, that problems are related to country of origin. The majority of problems with extremist Muslims in the UK are with those of a Pakistan background (incomers or later generations)

In mainland Europe it is mainly problems with those from Turkey or the Middle East.

The common factor is radicalism and Muslim. The Nationality issue, is simply where each country gets most of its Muslim immigrants from.

It would be impossible to deny the common factors.

America is fortunate, in that is does not have the density of Muslims, enough to have reached a critical mass, where extremists acquire the confidence to act out their beliefs.

 

[Bismillah]

Dearborn, Michigan?

 

[Nayana]

Back to the original post. I read it completely disgusted. I find it hard to be accepting of certain religions that allow their people to treat others so. Sure Islam can be followed peacefully, but on the whole I feel such strong feelings of hatred from the religion that i find it hard to be accepting of it.

Sharia law horrifies me, law that allows the beating of women. Abuse of ANYONE disgusts me. Holland should do what it can to halt the immigration of certain people from certain areas. Obviously if those people are more likely to commit crimes, they have a just reason to exclude them. That is unless they prove they are willing to intergrate into the community. Holland is not a multi cultural country like Australia (where i live) so people must adapt to a certain way of thinking and lifestyle that reflects the native culture.

 

[HonestJoe]

What's up with Europeans allowing people to simply come in and trample their equality, rights and freedom with impunity anyway?

We don't. The rules and laws here apply to immigrants just as they do to anyone else (sometimes more so). Assaulting someone is a crime. In most countries, assaulting someone because they're gay is considered a more serious crime.

Another thing I don't understand is how people easily confuse race, religion and nationality. I mean seriously - Islam is obviously not a "race".

I agree. It's lazy use of language to talk about this as racism - the problem is "religionism" sounds silly.

That doesn't change the fact that it is wrong to condemn all Muslims or all immigrants for the criminal actions of a minority (even where that minority make up the majority of people committing a particular crime). After all, we're talking about crimes primarily committed you immigrant Muslim youths yet nobody is saying all young people should be treated differently as a result.

But anyway, why the hell would anybody immigrate to a country if they hated their culture?

A good question. Maybe the vast majority of immigrants don't hate the culture of the countries they move to, even it ignorant thugs who assault homosexuals. After all, a not insignificant number of natives assault homosexuals too but they're not accused of hating our culture.

 

[Bismillah]

Holland should do what it can to halt the immigration of certain people from certain areas. Obviously if those people are more likely to commit crimes, they have a just reason to exclude them. That is unless they prove they are willing to intergrate into the community. Holland is not a multi cultural country like Australia (where i live) so people must adapt to a certain way of thinking and lifestyle that reflects the native culture.

You know what is funny? This is the same line of reasoning used by Arizona politicians to support a proposition that would illegally discriminate against Mexicans. It's obvious that wherever you live, immigrants from poor countries will be at a higher chance to commit crimes. Whether it's Mexicans in Arizona or Moroccans in Amsterdam. It's up to the police to enforce their own laws, instead of allowing many of the communities of first generation immigrants to turn into miniature ghettos and enabling an environment that is conducive to lawlessness. If gays are afraid of walking in the streets then complaining to the police would be the most obvious and pragmatic response.

Incidentally I couldn't find any thing that indicated that Amsterdam suffers a significant crime rate through various sources. I did find this on the U.S travel site though

While the rate of violent crime in the Netherlands is low, tourists are often targeted by thieves.

While thieves may operate anywhere, the U.S. Consulate General in Amsterdam receives frequent reports of thefts from specific areas. Within Amsterdam, thieves and pickpockets are very active in and around train and tram stations, in the city center, and aboard public transportation

Netherlands, The

If this is the worst that American tourists can expect from gangs of lawless youths, then I'd advise against any of you visiting Tucson, AZ.

 

[Nayana]

You know what is funny? This is the same line of reasoning used by Arizona politicians to support a proposition that would illegally discriminate against Mexicans. It's obvious that wherever you live, immigrants from poor countries will be at a higher chance to commit crimes. Whether it's Mexicans in Arizona or Moroccans in Amsterdam. It's up to the police to enforce their own laws, instead of allowing many of the communities of first generation immigrants to turn into miniature ghettos and enabling an environment that is conducive to lawlessness. If gays are afraid of walking in the streets then complaining to the police would be the most obvious and pragmatic response.

Yes that would be a good response and i'm sure it is happening. However if this string of attacks is connected to the amount of immigration of Islamics, then something must be done, right? I think a more thorough character check should be placed on all people who migrate to a country.

 

[Smoke]

That doesn't change the fact that it is wrong to condemn all Muslims or all immigrants for the criminal actions of a minority (even where that minority make up the majority of people committing a particular crime).

That would be wrong. But nobody here has done that.

 

[Bismillah]

However if this string of attacks is connected to the amount of immigration of Islamics, then something must be done, right? I think a more thorough character check should be placed on all people who migrate to a country.

What type of character check? What would you check? Crime rates are intrinsically related to household incomes. The most effective means of eliminating crime anywhere is to eliminate poverty. Like I said, immigrants from Mexico are just as likely to commit crimes as immigrants from Morocco. The only thing that changes is a government's response to the situation.

 

[Smoke]

Like I said, immigrants from Mexico are just as likely to commit crimes as immigrants from Morocco.

Can you document that?

 

[Bismillah]

Smoke:

Incidentally I couldn't find any thing that indicated that Amsterdam suffers a significant crime rate through various sources. I did find this on the U.S travel site though

While the rate of violent crime in the Netherlands is low, tourists are often targeted by thieves.

While thieves may operate anywhere, the U.S. Consulate General in Amsterdam receives frequent reports of thefts from specific areas. Within Amsterdam, thieves and pickpockets are very active in and around train and tram stations, in the city center, and aboard public transportation

Netherlands, The

Like I said I couldn't find any solid facts, if you can please share them That said some of the articles I skimmed through mentioned that Amsterdam has a relatively low crime rate for a city of its size. That along with theivery being the only thing listed under the U.S government advisory on crime in Amsterdam and Netherlands seems like it can't be described as "murder city".

Compared with Tucson, AZ which well exceeds the national average crime rate and comes close to matching the highest recorded rates in America.

 

[Smoke]

Like I said I couldn't find any solid facts

Then you don't seem to have much basis for saying Mexican immigrants are as likely to commit crimes as Moroccan immigrants. Much less violent crimes.

 

[Bismillah]

Then you don't seem to have much basis for saying Mexican immigrants are as likely to commit crimes as Moroccan immigrants. Much less violent crimes.

If there is a disproportionate crime rate in Amsterdam why isn't it recorded? Why is it that the biggest caution the U.S government gives to travelers is thievery when gangs of Moroccans take to the night like wolves and harass Westerners? Why is it that the articles I went through mentioned that Amsterdam has a relatively light crime rate in comparison with other metropolitan cities?

Comparing that with the recorded crime rates of Tucson, then it is safe to assume that Mexicans have a higher probability of crimes than Moroccans?

Like I stated, immigrants from poor countries will be at a higher chance to commit crimes whether you look at North America, Europe, or any other part of the world. It is the responsibility of the police to enforce the laws of the host country. If gays are being attacked as described, then someone seriously needs to reevaluate how the authorities are dealing with this.

Again all I am interested is any facts that back this story up, because I wasn't able to find them.

 

[nrg]

All of Europe is having a tough time adjusting to the tensions that multiculturalism adds. I mean, Australia and the US had their problems a hundred years ago, and it still remains to some degree, but it's new and something we Europeans have no idea of how to handle.

But I think that if we want Europe to be viewed as tolerant, cosmopolitan, loving, firm and safe we need to deal with this in a case-by-case way. Acting out against a community is not only gonna get us condemned, but it's gonna have even terrible consequences too since the radical muslims can paint themselves as martyrs and recruit more. There is no perfect solution to the increased tensions we've got here, we're simple people who has to choose the optimal strategy, no matter how inadequate.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Britain is a mongrel race. There never has been a time when we were not adsorbing new peoples.
In the past we have solved the problem, if there was one, by inter marrying. The only peoples that only partially joined in were the many Jews who sought refuge here. And even they were not totally resistant ( even my Grand father married a Jewess)

The Pakistani Muslims are a new problem, because very few inter marry and become integrated into the general population. They are creating Ghettos of largely under educated and rather primitive malcontents.

 

[Bismillah]

The Pakistani Muslims are a new problem, because very few inter marry and become integrated into the general population. They are creating Ghettos of largely under educated and rather primitive malcontents.

That is expected with first generation immigrants, it's the case everywhere actually. And by all accounts the majority of Britishers who are 3rd generation or greater Pakistani sure act like the rest of the Brits. At least the majority of people I know.

 

[nrg]

That is expected with first generation immigrants, it's the case everywhere actually. And by all accounts the majority of Britishers who are 3rd generation or greater Pakistani sure act like the rest of the Brits. At least the majority of people I know.

Absolutely, but I actually think that's a little sad. I work with refugees every week and I they're stressed out about absorbing to Swedish culture. I don't think they should be at all. They should only be worried about wether or not they're actually breaking the law and if they're learning Swedish for the benefit of themselves. I don't care if they know the national anthem of their new country, eat our traditional dishes or conform to our day to day rituals and values. As long as they're not breaking the law and they try to become self sustainable, I don't have a problem with them at all, and I have the same expectations on Europeans too.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

The Pakistani Muslims are a new problem, because very few inter marry and become integrated into the general population. They are creating Ghettos of largely under educated and rather primitive malcontents.

This is a question not a statement. Are not Pakistani Muslims different then other Muslims in that they have their own caste system. I have read both Hindu's and other Muslims comment on it.

So they would be different then all other Muslims in this respect.

 

[Bismillah]

Absolutely, but I actually think that's a little sad. I work with refugees every week and I they're stressed out about absorbing to Swedish culture. I don't think they should be at all. They should only be worried about wether or not they're actually breaking the law and if they're learning Swedish for the benefit of themselves. I don't care if they know the national anthem of their new country, eat our traditional dishes or conform to our day to day rituals and values. As long as they're not breaking the law and they try to become self sustainable, I don't have a problem with them at all, and I have the same expectations on Europeans too.

I agree I've worked with many immigrants as well in Arizona ranging from Latinos to Lebanese and most of them tend to be frightened of the changes. It's amazing how much these people really don't know and how much help they need. From learning basic English to how a stove works, it's not surprising that some slip through the cracks. And apparently from the lack of police enforcement in cities like Amsterdam that allows these types of crimes to happen, a large chunk is slipping through the cracks. Helping them situate themselves really increases the chances of the chance that they will pull themselves over the poverty line. It's simple really, the less poverty the less crime. This would be the most pragmatic response I believe to situations like these.

I also wanted to emphasize that this is universal. As opposed to the general feeling of confining it to "radical muslims" you will find violent crimes occurring anywhere with a decent immigration rate.