The Israel/Palestine Discourse Monopoly

[Godobeyer]

It's already been shown that it's not genocide. The citizens were warned. 1.8 million left. If it was genocide, then there would have been no warning only mass murder.



There are reports of increased violence by settlers. The video shows screaming. One individual was kicked. They video says they have been threatened. There is a picture of a building which was demolished, but, we don't know the circumstances of it.

In order to blame "Israel" for this, there needs to be a lot more evidence.



Unless you can refute the facts of what she is saying, then public opinion is meaningless. That is "flat-earth" logic. The reason that Egypt has partnered with Israel is because citizens of Gaza are unable to defend themselves and stabilize their own government.

You brought a video of some screaming and a kick. Here is what instability actually looks like in the region:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-gaza-scene/gaza-fighting-descends-into-new-brutality-idUSL1264188820070612/?edition-redirect=uk

Snipers on rooftops killing people. Bodies mutilated and dumped in the streets in very humiliating ways. Houses bombarded and civilians killed. What else does civil war means but this?"​

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Well over 600 Palestinians have been killed in factional fighting since Hamas came to power in March 2006 after defeating Fatah in parliamentary elections, according to one prominent Palestinian human rights group.​

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Ceasefires have frequently been declared but never honored for long.​

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Interspersed with drive-by shootings and rocket-propelled grenade attacks, both sides have shown extraordinary flashes of brutality in recent days.​

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A member of Abbas's Force 17 security service was the first to be thrown off a 15-storey building. A few hours later, Hamas accused Fatah of throwing a Hamas supporter off another building.​

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Fatah supporters gunned down a Hamas cleric outside his mosque. In another extraordinary attack, a top Fatah militant with ties to President Mahmoud Abbas's national security adviser, Mohammad Dahlan, was dragged out of his home and shot 40 times by Hamas gunmen, medics said.​

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These are people that the citizens of Gaza elected. Did they make a wise choice? People who do things like this are dangerous for everyone. This is not what the settlers are doing. Compared to Hamas, the settlers are a minor threat to the security in the region.

Killing about 20 000, civilians is not genocide?
Which number satisfy you to admit it's crime against humanity?

It's already been shown that it's not genocide. The citizens were warned. 1.8 million left. If it was genocide, then there would have been no warning only mass murder.



There are reports of increased violence by settlers. The video shows screaming. One individual was kicked. They video says they have been threatened. There is a picture of a building which was demolished, but, we don't know the circumstances of it.

In order to blame "Israel" for this, there needs to be a lot more evidence.



Unless you can refute the facts of what she is saying, then public opinion is meaningless. That is "flat-earth" logic. The reason that Egypt has partnered with Israel is because citizens of Gaza are unable to defend themselves and stabilize their own government.

You brought a video of some screaming and a kick. Here is what instability actually looks like in the region:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-palestinians-gaza-scene/gaza-fighting-descends-into-new-brutality-idUSL1264188820070612/?edition-redirect=uk

Snipers on rooftops killing people. Bodies mutilated and dumped in the streets in very humiliating ways. Houses bombarded and civilians killed. What else does civil war means but this?"​

​

Well over 600 Palestinians have been killed in factional fighting since Hamas came to power in March 2006 after defeating Fatah in parliamentary elections, according to one prominent Palestinian human rights group.​

​

Ceasefires have frequently been declared but never honored for long.​

​

Interspersed with drive-by shootings and rocket-propelled grenade attacks, both sides have shown extraordinary flashes of brutality in recent days.​

​

A member of Abbas's Force 17 security service was the first to be thrown off a 15-storey building. A few hours later, Hamas accused Fatah of throwing a Hamas supporter off another building.​

​

Fatah supporters gunned down a Hamas cleric outside his mosque. In another extraordinary attack, a top Fatah militant with ties to President Mahmoud Abbas's national security adviser, Mohammad Dahlan, was dragged out of his home and shot 40 times by Hamas gunmen, medics said.​

​

These are people that the citizens of Gaza elected. Did they make a wise choice? People who do things like this are dangerous for everyone. This is not what the settlers are doing. Compared to Hamas, the settlers are a minor threat to the security in the region.

All. Known Israel settlers armed and are protected by Israel army.
Know how life of Palestinians under occupation and Israel regime terrorism in West Bank.
Try to denial the reality that Israel is terrorism racist apartheid country won't work.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Yes, it makes a lot of sense that the struggle against apartheid would engender sympathy for other populations experiencing systematic persecution, and I think the noticeable pro-Palestinian sentiment of Ireland, for example, stems from similar historical reasons that have made it more able to closely relate to the ongoing issues that Palestinians are facing.

I'm also interested in the history of colonialism and exploitation in Africa, since that's where I'm from as well. I can relate to what you said regarding caring about Africa due to researching your own country's history.

I see it as an aspect of human nature that people tend to care the most about the issues that are physically and emotionally closest to them. I only see a problem when there's approval of or complete apathy toward others' suffering even when one becomes aware of it, but prioritizing some issues over others on a personal level seems to me a normal and usually necessary thing to do.



I would say that a lot of it was, and al-Jazeera actually ran an article about this because of the stark discrepancy between how some Western media outlets reported about the Ukraine war and how they reported about other wars:

‘Double standards’: Western coverage of Ukraine war criticised

Social media users accuse media of hypocrisy in its coverage of Russia’s war on Ukraine compared with other conflicts.

www.aljazeera.com

I suspect that the media in most countries tend to focus on issues that are closest to home, which, again, I find generally reasonable and normal. However, Western powers have frequently gotten themselves involved in overseas conflicts and wars, so many Western media outlets' different coverage of those wars compared to the one in Ukraine was especially jarring and harmfully inconsistent. It was as though they had a different set of moral and political standards for each part of the world.

If Western media (in general) reported about, say, France's involvement in Africa or the US' foreign policy as critically and consistently as they did the Ukraine war, I suspect that many voters would vote differently and have a different view of their respective governments' policies as well as how their tax money was spent.



This is a great question, and I don't really have a definitive answer. I don't know whether personal connection is a realistic goal either, because I wouldn't expect someone in, say, Thailand or Iceland to feel personally connected to Africa's issues, just like I don't feel personally connected to the issues in either country. There can be a feeling of strong empathy (not just sympathy) when struggles are similar or shared, as in the case of South Africa and Ireland in relation to Palestine, and I think that a lot of policy reforms could be achieved through campaigns that raise awareness even if most people still don't feel personally connected to issues in relatively distant countries.

At the end of the day, voting a warmonger out of office could save hundreds of thousands of lives, and doing so only requires that most voters disapprove of the warmonger, whether or not they feel personally connected to the struggle of the country targeted by the war of aggression.

For all of its flaws and deleterious effects, I think that social media have played an immensely useful role in bringing to light facts about many countries' history and issues as well as facets of people's daily lives there in ways that other forms of media have often failed to capture. An article about the IDF's bombardment of civilian areas could be 5,000 words long and still not have the same impact as just one or two pictures of a family under the rubble or a severely injured child crying over losing their parents in an airstrike.

What country are you from?

I am only just starting to learn about the history of my country at the age of 34, and it is strange that my generation and beyond have apathy towards the past struggle, which I think is a slap in the fast of those who fought for our rights. And I think this is by systemic design but I am still looking into this.

I agree that those coming from communities and countries that suffered from systematic oppression find the Palestinian situation relatable. And the oppressed know what oppression looks like more than oppressors... except when they themselves are oppressing others, like what I think is happening on the Israeli side of this conflict.

I think that the apathy shown to oppressed people is tragic. It makes me think that the motives behind supporting a popular struggle is less about actually caring about the people and more about serving an agenda, as people are too inconsistent and hypocritical.

With Ukraine, as well as the Israeli situation, i think people and the media favour those wars because what matters to them is European interests and white lives, which is the white supremacist mentality, as shown by the comments that Al Jazeera pointed out. I am confident that this is also the reason behind the different sets of moral and political standards that western countries hold towards different countriess in the world.

We might not be personally invested being from another country but certainly the media has shown that it can make people unconnected from the issues they support feel personally connected because they feel they must take a stand towards popular issues. And it should be in the western populations interest to look into other countries wars because the very comodities that they purchase are made available because of the wars in these countries.

Social media has played a major role in exposing hypocrisy and propaganda. People can show footage of what happens in Palestine which the media cannot suppress. Also non popular wars in other countries are also being made known through platforms like Youtube and especially Tiktok, which is a surprisingly informative platform if one uses it right.

 

[Stevicus]

That last sentence makes me think of Goldstein from 1984. The foreign enemy is used to keep the local population in a lull about what the elite is doing in your own country.

I think that in the case of the US, the government and corporations, the capitalist elite, promote what serves their financial interests. So I often see what interests of resources and power certain actions of a government serve.

I've seen a great deal of criticism against the government on issues such as this, although there are also more than a few people to run interference on behalf of the government and the ruling elite. There are people who believe the government should be above reproach and that anyone who dares criticize them must be some kind of "conspiracy nut." It's a familiar pattern I've seen played out many, many times over the past few decades.

With Israel, America is funding them, so obviously it is in their financial and power interests for them and the media to side with Israel and dehumanise the Palestinians.

Perhaps, although dehumanizing any group of people goes against the basic principles of human rights which ours and other Western governments have claimed to support. It's usually on this point where accusations of double standards can come up.

When it comes to the DRC for instance, it is a fact that the CIA and Belgium assassinated Patrice Lumumba which means they had personal interest in destabilizing the country. They want the Cobalt and other resources. So the media isnt that concerned with what happens in DRC because peace in that region is against American interests.

So yes the middle east is a strategic part of the world and so is DRC.

It's clear that after WW2, the U.S. was struggling to maintain the global status quo of the time, which meant the hegemony of the West over most of the rest of the world. However, the Western European colonial powers had been severely weakened and depleted as a result of the war, which emboldened and encouraged independence movements throughout their colonial empires. That's how men like Patrice Lumumba rose to prominence, although the West's obsession with anti-communism (rooted in a desire to make the rich richer and the poor poorer) motivated strong opposition to such movements.

The Western governments realized they could no longer prevent these countries from becoming independent, but they wanted it on their terms where they could still maintain Western hegemony over them by way of proxies and puppet governments.

For its part, the West constantly claimed that it was all about bringing freedom and democracy to the world, protecting it from communism and other forms of government they regarded as tyranny. They never really say much about resources like cobalt, as to do so would go against the narrative.

 

[David1967]

It's already been shown that it's not genocide. The citizens were warned. 1.8 million left. If it was genocide, then there would have been no warning only mass murder.

This statement is ridiculous, and would be laughable if the results weren't so tragic. 1.8 million left, you say? Well the IDF is working hard to shrink those numbers.

 

[David1967]

Though the timing of a new security package remains unclear, the U.S. is by far the biggest supplier of military aid to Israel, contributing around $130 billion since its founding.

I could think of a lot better use for my tax dollars, like health care in the USA that citizens could actually afford.

 

[Revoltingest]

Killing about 20 000, civilians is not genocide?

By itself, it's not arguably genocide..
But include....
Israel killed/evicted 700,000 Palestinians in the Nakba.
Since then, Israel has killed more, & taken more land.
And now Israel kills, maims, & drives them from Gaza.
Looking at this total picture, it's a strong argument for genocide.

Genocide - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Which number satisfy you to admit it's crime against humanity?

All. Known Israel settlers armed and are protected by Israel army.
Know how life of Palestinians under occupation and Israel regime terrorism in West Bank.
Try to denial the reality that Israel is terrorism racist apartheid country won't work.

In the real estate business here, there's a concept
called "adverse possession". If one occupies the
property of another continuously, openly, & hostilely
for a long enuf period, then the "squatter" gains legal
title to the property.
This has long appeared to be Israel's view of Palestinian
land, ie, eliminate the owner, take the land, occupy it,
& it becomes theirs.
Israel has a law against this, but with settlers in its
government, it is de facto to kill/evict Palestinians,
& take their land.
I label this process "semitism".

 

[Bthoth]

I could think of a lot better use for my tax dollars, like health care in the USA that citizens could actually afford.

I know, israel has state healthcare on US tax dollars. Not directly but they DO NOT pay for their own military. They live on US for that expense.

Heck they call this recent divide as a war. But technically and literally HAMAS is their own creation within their own environmental control. They oppressed and displaced those people and they are rebelling. But calling it a war makes US dig into our children's future expense (deficit of tax dollars) to pay for their problem (self made).

It's just wrong.

 

[dybmh]

Killing about 20 000, civilians is not genocide?
Which number satisfy you to admit it's crime against humanity

No, killing 20,000 in this case out of 2,000,000 is not genocide. Genocide is an intention. The intention is not to annihilate the Palestinians. What's happening right now is not a "final solution" for the Palenstinian problem. The battle plan has been declared:

1) Get back the hostages
2) Eliminate Hamas
3) Prevent Gaza from becoming what it is: a place where the worst of the worst rise to power

Counting bodies is not what constitutes genocide nor war crimes, brother. Hamas has put Israel is an impossible position, but, they are doing the right thing. It a situation where it needs to get worse before it can get better.

Try to denial the reality that Israel is terrorism racist apartheid country won't work.

It's not denial. I'm grateful for any information and very willing to look at facts. But, I do filter out sources which are consistently misleading or incomplete in their coverage.

 

[dybmh]

Israel killed/evicted 700,000 Palestinians in the Nakba.

1) Your own source says half of those fled.
2) Israel was attacked in 1948. They won the war. The winner of a war aquires territory. That's how wars work.
3) The Palestinian leaders CAUSED their own Nakba. They spread propaganda which was intended to inspire the palestinains to fight, instead, they fled. See below: BBC has video of the the Palestinian reporter, who became a Jordanian diplomat, admitting to what happened.

Now. Consider for a moment how much damage this propaganda has caused. Now consider your current participation in it.

Ending the cycle of violence requires ending the cycle of propaganda. When you spread propaganda, Rev, you have blood on your hands.

Here is information on the source:

Hazem Nuseibeh - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[ImmortalFlame]

1) Your own source says half of those fled.

Fled what, I wonder?

2) Israel was attacked in 1948. They won the war. The winner of a war aquires territory. That's how wars work.

So, might makes right? So, if Hamas killed and slaughtered Israelis until they reclaimed all of the Israel, you'd find that morally okay?

3) The Palestinian leaders CAUSED their own Nakba.

Wow.

Just wow.

Did those 700,000 people just evict themselves from their own homes and land?

 

[dybmh]

This statement is ridiculous, and would be laughable if the results weren't so tragic. 1.8 million left, you say? Well the IDF is working hard to shrink those numbers.

You're not adding anything to the conversation. And it seems unlikely that this will change. I'm putting you on ignore.

Goodbye.

 

[dybmh]

Did those 700,000 people just evict themselves from their own homes and land?

You clearly did not watch the video. It seems you're among the others who are not going to look at both sides of the issue and evaluate it fairly. The answer to this question is literally in the post you quoted.

You're also going on ignore. Your posts are certainly a waste of my time.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You clearly did not watch the video. It seems you're among the others who are not going to look at both sides of the issue and evaluate it fairly. The answer to this question is literally in the post you quoted.

What explanation? Simply saying that their leaders used propaganda says literally nothing about WHY they left their homes.

Why are you denying ethnic cleansing?

You're also going on ignore. Your posts are certainly a waste of my time.

Well, when you can't argue successfully in favour of ethnic cleansing, it probably is a good idea to just ignore people who think it's wrong.

 

[dybmh]

Thank you for the video. I am sorry for the loss. Sincerely. The ones to blame are Hamas. If the Gazans were not compelled to leave, many-many more would have died.

The lesson to be learned here, is, extreme measures must be taken to prevent organizations like Hamas to rise to power.

 

[Revoltingest]

1) Your own source says half of those fled.

Note that "/" in my post.
It means "or".
But you're saying that Jews killed 350,000 Muslims?

2) Israel was attacked in 1948. They won the war. The winner of a war aquires territory.

So if Israel is destroyed, then this is equally good?

3) The Palestinian leaders CAUSED their own Nakba.

And this justifies Israel's murdering 350,000 Palestinians,
& evicting as many more?

Judaism has some really strange values.
I oppose them.

 

[David1967]

You're not adding anything to the conversation. And it seems unlikely that this will change. I'm putting you on ignore.

Goodbye.

Oh well, I guess I'll get by somehow.

 

[Bthoth]

No, killing 20,000 in this case out of 2,000,000 is not genocide. Genocide is an intention. The intention is not to annihilate the Palestinians. What's happening right now is not a "final solution" for the Palenstinian problem. The battle plan has been declared:

1) Get back the hostages
2) Eliminate Hamas
3) Prevent Gaza from becoming what it is: a place where the worst of the worst rise to power

Counting bodies is not what constitutes genocide nor war crimes, brother. Hamas has put Israel is an impossible position, but, they are doing the right thing. It a situation where it needs to get worse before it can get better.



It's not denial. I'm grateful for any information and very willing to look at facts. But, I do filter out sources which are consistently misleading or incomplete in their coverage.

Israelis current method is creating more HAMAS.

You and that big bibi nutlessyahoo cannot destroy resistance against israeli control.

it's impossible.

 

[Orbit]

No, killing 20,000 in this case out of 2,000,000 is not genocide. Genocide is an intention. The intention is not to annihilate the Palestinians. What's happening right now is not a "final solution" for the Palenstinian problem. The battle plan has been declared:

1) Get back the hostages
2) Eliminate Hamas
3) Prevent Gaza from becoming what it is: a place where the worst of the worst rise to power

Counting bodies is not what constitutes genocide nor war crimes, brother. Hamas has put Israel is an impossible position, but, they are doing the right thing. It a situation where it needs to get worse before it can get better.



It's not denial. I'm grateful for any information and very willing to look at facts. But, I do filter out sources which are consistently misleading or incomplete in their coverage.

Whether or not you define 20K dead, (mostly civilians, and about half of that children), as "genocide", it doesn't change the fact that it is still WRONG.

 

[dybmh]

Note that "/" in my post.
It means "or".
But you're saying that Jews killed 350,000 Muslims?

No.

So if Israel is destroyed, then this is equally good?

If Israel had attacked the other nations, and if Israel had lost, then the land aquired by the other nations as a result of the winning the war is how wars work.

And this justifies Israel's murdering 350,000 Palestinians,
& evicting as many more?

The evidence shows that a large majority of nakbah fled as a result of a palestinian-propaganda-backfire.

There is evidence of a small amount of palestinians who were evicted prior to the Deir Yassin propaganda fiasco.

Many palestinain villages wwere seized as part of the armstice agreement which was supposed to conclude the war of independence.

The number of palestinian fighters that were killed in the 1948 war of independence is unknown.

Using the word "murdered" requires evidence.

Judaism has some really strange values.
I oppose them.

You don't know jewish values, Rev. Your opinions, not only about Judaism, but also about this current war against Hamas are shallow, simple-minded and ignorant. Based on your previous posts, you seem to be holding a grudge against imaginary jewish lawyers, bankers, and jewish elites in power structures from which you are excluded. This conflict has given you an opportunity to validate and express these negative judgements and stereoptypes to anyone who will listen.

Maybe someday you will realize this, but, I doubt it.

 

[Bthoth]

No.



If Israel had attacked the other nations, and if Israel had lost, then the land aquired by the other nations as a result of the winning the war is how wars work.



The evidence shows that a large majority of nakbah fled as a result of a palestinian-propaganda-backfire.

There is evidence of a small amount of palestinians who were evicted prior to the Deir Yassin propaganda fiasco.

Many palestinain villages wwere seized as part of the armstice agreement which was supposed to conclude the war of independence.

The number of palestinian fighters that were killed in the 1948 war of independence is unknown.

Using the word "murdered" requires evidence.



You don't know jewish values, Rev. Your opinions, not only about Judaism, but also about this current war against Hamas are shallow, simple-minded and ignorant. Based on your previous posts, you seem to be holding a grudge against imaginary jewish lawyers, bankers, and jewish elites in power structures from which you are excluded. This conflict has given you an opportunity to validate and express these negative judgements and stereoptypes to anyone who will listen.

Maybe someday you will realize this, but, I doubt it.

The ignorant believe a god gave a population an israel. Just as the ignorant, believe an exodus from egypt, to an egyptian vassal (the levent) actually occurred.

The first has never happened, as israel was born from terrorism and the british left the region and recognized an israel (created the state). The second was that a schism occurred in egypt where a group left thebes to begin monotheism. The foundation of judaism is from the egyptians.