The Koran is the Word of God? How do we know this?

[Bismillah]

I assume illiterate means lack of rhetorical skill and ability to write a book of this magnitude. Speaking and authoring are two very different things.

It is doubtful that many learned men would consider Muhammad "retarded".

 

[McBell]

I assume illiterate means lack of rhetorical skill and ability to write a book of this magnitude. Speaking and authoring are two very different things.

It is doubtful that many learned men would consider Muhammad "retarded".

and yet you allude to just that when you ask how an illiterate man can compose a book of such quality...

So how does being illiterate make a person unable to compose a book?
This strikes me as nothing more than the worn out argument that because Mohammad was to stupid to even remember to breathe the Koran had to be from Allah.

 

[Ichiraku_raman]

The Quran proves many scientific facts that were discovered centuries after the Prophet's time.

Quote: The heaven used to be smoke [41:11]
We know that smoke is a mixture of hot gases and suspended particles. Scientists have confirmed that the universe did indeed originate from a gaseous mass composed of hydrogen and helium, a big mass of hot gases.

Quote: The atom is not the smallest unit of matter in the universe.[34:3]
...Protons, neutrons, electrons. 'Nuff said.

Quote: The earth rotates around its axis [27:88], rotates around the sun [7:54], is not flat but is like a ball [39:5] or an egg [79:30]
Need I say more? Or are you going to argue that the Earth is flat? (which was the common belief back then)

Quote: The lowest point on earth is near the dead sea [30:3]
Confirmed.

Quote: The oceans have layers of waves and layers of darkness in which some creatures have light [24:40]
Scientists have discovered that there are different currents at different depths.

Quote: When different seas ( i.e. different in salinity, temperature, oxygen content, etc. ) meet, there is a barrier between them that they do not violate [55:19-20]
This is not apparent by visual observation but temperature sensitive satellite pictures confirm this.

Quote: Mountains are pegs that have roots extending below the surface of the earth [78:7], mountains stabilize the earth's crust by minimizing earthquakes [16:15]
'Nuff said.

Quote: Earthquakes precede volcanic eruptions [99:1]
They do most of the time.

Quote: The earth's core is heavier than its crust [99:2]
Confirmed.

Quote: Our sun is not the only sun in the universe [25:61]
Modern astronomy tells us that the sun is actually a star, and therefore the universe is full of suns.

Quote: They [the Astronomers] will find other planets [65:12]
What is NASA looking for now? They did find three more planets very similar to Pluto, but decided to not call them planets, and also scrapped Pluto from the list (because they had different properties). More are being searched for.

Quote: Morning is associated with breathing [81:18]
Now we know that plants produce oxygen in presence of light and consume carbon dioxide.

Quote: Sperm attaches itself to the egg to form an attachment or a leach then a chewed-like lump which develops bones which are covered with flesh and then changed into a different form [ 23:14]
This refers to facts discovered when scientists, using special scopes, followed the development of the fetus from a fertilized egg to a form resembling lower vertebrae before turning into the human form. After contemplating the descriptions of embryonic stages as a leach then a chewed-like lump, Professor Keith Moore, a Canadian embryologist, compared pictures of different embryonic stages to pictures of leaches and chewed clay and confirmed the accuracy of the Quranic verses.

Quote: Human pregnancy passes through 3 trimesters [39:6]
First trimester...second trimester...third trimester...

Quote: Different clouds (positively and negatively charged?) are harmonized (collide) to produce droplets of water and lightning [24:43]
As differently charged clouds collide, they produce thunder, lightning, rain, or other precipitation.


Where could the Prophet come with all this he had been the most learned personality in Arabia? You cannot accuse us of having altered it with time, the 1400 year old copies of the Quran made by the ruler following the Prophet are preserved in museums, and not a word has changed. The fact that the writing has manged to survive so long is a miracle in itself.

 

[McBell]

The Quran proves many scientific facts that were discovered centuries after the Prophet's time.

Quote: The heaven used to be smoke [41:11]
We know that smoke is a mixture of hot gases and suspended particles. Scientists have confirmed that the universe did indeed originate from a gaseous mass composed of hydrogen and helium, a big mass of hot gases.

Quote: The atom is not the smallest unit of matter in the universe.[34:3]
...Protons, neutrons, electrons. 'Nuff said.

Quote: The earth rotates around its axis [27:88], rotates around the sun [7:54], is not flat but is like a ball [39:5] or an egg [79:30]
Need I say more? Or are you going to argue that the Earth is flat? (which was the common belief back then)

Quote: The lowest point on earth is near the dead sea [30:3]
Confirmed.

Quote: The oceans have layers of waves and layers of darkness in which some creatures have light [24:40]
Scientists have discovered that there are different currents at different depths.

Quote: When different seas ( i.e. different in salinity, temperature, oxygen content, etc. ) meet, there is a barrier between them that they do not violate [55:19-20]
This is not apparent by visual observation but temperature sensitive satellite pictures confirm this.

Quote: Mountains are pegs that have roots extending below the surface of the earth [78:7], mountains stabilize the earth's crust by minimizing earthquakes [16:15]
'Nuff said.

Quote: Earthquakes precede volcanic eruptions [99:1]
They do most of the time.

Quote: The earth's core is heavier than its crust [99:2]
Confirmed.

Quote: Our sun is not the only sun in the universe [25:61]
Modern astronomy tells us that the sun is actually a star, and therefore the universe is full of suns.

Quote: They [the Astronomers] will find other planets [65:12]
What is NASA looking for now? They did find three more planets very similar to Pluto, but decided to not call them planets, and also scrapped Pluto from the list (because they had different properties). More are being searched for.

Quote: Morning is associated with breathing [81:18]
Now we know that plants produce oxygen in presence of light and consume carbon dioxide.

Quote: Sperm attaches itself to the egg to form an attachment or a leach then a chewed-like lump which develops bones which are covered with flesh and then changed into a different form [ 23:14]
This refers to facts discovered when scientists, using special scopes, followed the development of the fetus from a fertilized egg to a form resembling lower vertebrae before turning into the human form. After contemplating the descriptions of embryonic stages as a leach then a chewed-like lump, Professor Keith Moore, a Canadian embryologist, compared pictures of different embryonic stages to pictures of leaches and chewed clay and confirmed the accuracy of the Quranic verses.

Quote: Human pregnancy passes through 3 trimesters [39:6]
First trimester...second trimester...third trimester...

Quote: Different clouds (positively and negatively charged?) are harmonized (collide) to produce droplets of water and lightning [24:43]
As differently charged clouds collide, they produce thunder, lightning, rain, or other precipitation.


Where could the Prophet come with all this he had been the most learned personality in Arabia? You cannot accuse us of having altered it with time, the 1400 year old copies of the Quran made by the ruler following the Prophet are preserved in museums, and not a word has changed. The fact that the writing has manged to survive so long is a miracle in itself.

More Forer Effect pseudoscience.

Wait...Nope...My bad...Just the same old same old....

 

[themadhair]

The Quran proves many scientific facts that were discovered centuries after the Prophet's time.

Another scientific illiterate. Let’s take these one at a time:

Quote: The heaven used to be smoke [41:11]

The koran clearly implies that the earth was created before the heavens, so any attempt at defending this as a comparison to big bang fail horribly.

Quote: The atom is not the smallest unit of matter in the universe.[34:3]
...Protons, neutrons, electrons. 'Nuff said.

My koran goes as follows:
“ Those who disbelieve say: The Hour will never come unto us. Say: Nay, by my Lord, but it is coming unto you surely. (He is) the Knower of the Unseen. Not an atom's weight, or less than that or greater, escapeth Him in the heavens or in the earth, but it is in a clear Record, ”
Doesn’t say any such thing about atoms not being the smallest unit or in any way indicate that there exists smaller particles. You’d think you chaps would at least read your own holy book, but alas in your fervour to **** on scientific discovery it seems not.

Quote: The earth rotates around its axis [27:88], rotates around the sun [7:54], is not flat but is like a ball [39:5] or an egg [79:30]
Need I say more? Or are you going to argue that the Earth is flat? (which was the common belief back then)

Greeks had actually measured the size of the earth before the koran was ever written so a round earth is hardly special. Unless you suddenly think the Greeks worthy of worship but I don’t see you doing that. That would require some amount of intellectual honesty.
My koran ahs 7:54 as “ Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then mounted He the Throne. He covereth the night with the day, which is in haste to follow it, and hath made the sun and the moon and the stars subservient by His command. His verily is all creation and commandment. Blessed be Allah, the Lord of the Worlds! ”
Nothing about going around the sun there. You have read the koran haven’t you?

Quote: The lowest point on earth is near the dead sea [30:3]
Confirmed.

That area is clearly lower. And since you regard this a miracle you clearly think Muhammad wouldn’t have knowledge of the rest of the world. So why do you think it strange that Muhammad thought the lowest area in his region was the lowest? If this qualifies as a miracle to you then you have much lower standards than I.

Quote: The oceans have layers of waves and layers of darkness in which some creatures have light [24:40]
Scientists have discovered that there are different currents at different depths.

Surprisingly other cultures were also on the ball here. The giant squid was the stuff of folklore centuries before science ever conformed it. Even our lot, the Celts, had legends about this (they called it Coinchenn) so nothing particularly miraculous here.

Quote: When different seas ( i.e. different in salinity, temperature, oxygen content, etc. ) meet, there is a barrier between them that they do not violate [55:19-20]
This is not apparent by visual observation but temperature sensitive satellite pictures confirm this.

The existence of brackish waters sort of throws a spanner into this. Where separation does occur it isn’t due to salinity but temperature, and to anyone living in such an area the phenomenon is easily observed. This can only be considered miraculous if the koran’s author was a moron incapable of talking to any traveller familiar with those regions. Not a miracle but common knowledge to anyone well-travelled to those regions.

Quote: Mountains are pegs that have roots extending below the surface of the earth [78:7], mountains stabilize the earth's crust by minimizing earthquakes [16:15]
'Nuff said.

Outright false since mountainous regions are among the most tectonically active regions on earth. This was battered to death in a thread somewhere on this forum where one of your fellow Muslims made a giant arse out of themselves trying to defend this.

Quote: Earthquakes precede volcanic eruptions [99:1]
They do most of the time.

This was known since Pompeii in around 70AD. To really emphasise the point, there were much equipment used for building and plastering recovered in Pompeii because they were rebuilding from the earthquake that proceeded the eruption that buried the town. Known nearly five centuries before the koran.

Quote: The earth's core is heavier than its crust [99:2]
Confirmed.

You think it a miracle that someone guessed that heavier material would be under lighter material? A principle we observe almost everyday in our lives? And you think this miraculous?

Quote: Our sun is not the only sun in the universe [25:61]
Modern astronomy tells us that the sun is actually a star, and therefore the universe is full of suns.

My koran reads differently for 25:61 than your interpretation – “ Blessed be He Who hath placed in the heaven mansions of the stars, and hath placed therein a great lamp and a moon giving light! ” The moon isn’t a source of light and nowhere in this passage is a comparison drawn between the sun and the stars. In fact this is simply a reiteration of the Judeo-Christian creation myth involving the firmament. Not only wrong, but plagiarised.

Quote: They [the Astronomers] will find other planets [65:12]
What is NASA looking for now? They did find three more planets very similar to Pluto, but decided to not call them planets, and also scrapped Pluto from the list (because they had different properties). More are being searched for.

My koran gives the following for 65:12:
” Allah it is who hath created seven heavens, and of the earth the like thereof. The commandment cometh down among them slowly, that ye may know that Allah is Able to do all things, and that Allah surroundeth all things in knowledge.”
Nowhere is there any indication that the author knew of other planets. The seven heavens is that creation story again.

Quote: Morning is associated with breathing [81:18]
Now we know that plants produce oxygen in presence of light and consume carbon dioxide.

My koran gives “ And the breath of morning ”. Nothing to give any indication about plants involved there. If anything your interpretation should be about the breath of night, which it isn’t, so even by your own attempt to fit this into science you are wrong.

Quote: Sperm attaches itself to the egg to form an attachment or a leach then a chewed-like lump which develops bones which are covered with flesh and then changed into a different form [ 23:14]
This refers to facts discovered when scientists, using special scopes, followed the development of the fetus from a fertilized egg to a form resembling lower vertebrae before turning into the human form. After contemplating the descriptions of embryonic stages as a leach then a chewed-like lump, Professor Keith Moore, a Canadian embryologist, compared pictures of different embryonic stages to pictures of leaches and chewed clay and confirmed the accuracy of the Quranic verses.

Plagiarised from the works of the Greek physician Galen who wrote this account five centuries before the koran. The reason I am so confident it was plagiarised is because the koran also plagiarised the mistakes Galen made. Does believing the koran to be miraculous involve ignorance of history and an unwillingness to research history?

Quote: Human pregnancy passes through 3 trimesters [39:6]
First trimester...second trimester...third trimester...

Why do you not worship Galen? He, after all, came up with this centuries before the koran?

Quote: Different clouds (positively and negatively charged?) are harmonized (collide) to produce droplets of water and lightning [24:43]
As differently charged clouds collide, they produce thunder, lightning, rain, or other precipitation.

My koran reads “ Hast thou not seen how Allah wafteth the clouds, then gathereth them, then maketh them layers, and thou seest the rain come forth from between them; He sendeth down from the heaven mountains wherein is hail, and smiteth therewith whom He will, and averteth it from whom He will. The flashing of His lightning all but snatcheth away the sight. ” All I can see here is the author describing different clouds and that hail and lightening come form the clouds. I don’t think there has been a civilisation to have existed on the face of the earth that didn’t know this. Hell, I’m pretty sure any person with two eyes could discover this. Even the fricking animals probably know this.


To sum up – you lot are a laughing stock when it comes to science when you make claims like the above. Seriously, what mental block or research disfigurement prevented you from doing the above analysis that I have done????????

But do you know what really bugs me here? That you would post this **** without having bothered to confirm it or do your homework on it. If you read the koran on your own you wouldn’t have interpreted those versus as you did above. Those interpretations you read somewhere rather than discover. Regurgitation, rather than understanding, is pointless.

 

[A-ManESL]

What is the purpose of this thread? The Qu'ran, just like any religious scripture, draws its allure through its text. If a nonbeliever is to read the Qu'ran and accept its teachings then it is the word of god. If he denies it then the Qu'ran is not the word of god. It's a matter of faith and the only answer is to wait for Judgment Day

Correct. Faith in anything is something not reached by any intellect. No amount of reason can ever satisfactorily validate any religious truth. The validity can only be established by one way: The grace of God (or whatever spiritual reality/metaphysical state one believes in) brings you to a station in your spiritual state where you gain the validity of a religious truth by experience.

The ordinarily Muslims really believe in the Quran due to a consensual agreement (called Ijma. Source: A history of Islamic law By Noel James Coulson Pg 77) and not due to any evidence. They do not have the requisite faith that stations achieved by Prophets, Saints and other holy men of God possesed which allowed them to acquire this knowledge of Quran's divinity by direct experience of God. They are merely submitters (Source: Quran 49:14); most of them do understand that it is due to their own ignorance and small spiritual status that they are not possessers of this knowledge. They have just enough faith to know this, and this allows them to remain in this state of submission.

 

[EtuMalku]

Submission? Egads, that word alone is enough to run from this religion

 

[A-ManESL]

Submission? Egads, that word alone is enough to run from this religion

Although this offtopic, let me comment on this a bit. The purpose of any religion is to bring man closer to God. For the light of God to enter man's heart it is necessary that his heart is first devoid of any hedonistic desires and self importance. Submission or total surrender crushes man's Ego and prepares his heart for it. Surrender of one's Ego is one of the way's therefore by which man can prepare himself to be elevated spiritually.

True free thinkers think this is contrary to all notions of rationalism. It is, but the purpose here is to elevate man's spiritual status and not to develop logical thinking. Reason and rationalism are admirable when one is dealing with worldly matters, but when one is confronted with the metaphysical Reality, they no longer suffice, since that plane of existence doesn't come under its purview.

This surrender concept as a way to achieve God is discussed in Hinduism too. After describing all the ways of achieving God (namely Karma Yog, Jnana Yog, Bhakti Yog) Krishna (whom most Hindu's believe is an embodiment of Vishnu, a particular dimension of God, while some believe that he is the Supreme Being) tells his disciple Arjun, in the Bhagawad Gita, that "a simpler way is to forgo everything and surrender yourself to me."

You are surely loved by me;
therefore I shall speak for your benefit.
Become mentally me, devoted to me, sacrificing to me;
revere me, and you will come to me truly;
I promise you; you are my beloved.
Giving up all duties, take shelter in me alone.-Bhagawad Gita

 

[MSizer]

Thank you themadhair for debunking all of that bunk. I was shaking my head as I had read the supposed scientific claims (I'm still shaking my head actually) but I just didn't have it in me to sit here and go through each one and point out how fallacious they are. You get frubals for your dedication to anti-pseudoscience.

 

[themadhair]

True free thinkers think this is contrary to all notions of rationalism. It is, but the purpose here is to elevate man's spiritual status and not to develop logical thinking. Reason and rationalism are admirable when one is dealing with worldly matters, but when one is confronted with the metaphysical Reality, they no longer suffice, since that plane of existence doesn't come under its purview.

This is so true (for entirely different reasons than the poster thinks) that it almost hurts.

 

[YmirGF]

This is so true (for entirely different reasons than the poster thinks) that it almost hurts.

It's almost an indictment against faith, really.

 

[A-ManESL]

This is so true (for entirely different reasons than the poster thinks) that it almost hurts.

Can you please elaborate? (On the reasons being entirely different part)

It's almost an indictment against faith, really.

Not really. I persume my sort of equating faith with something irrational has led you to feel that way. Why do you feel that reason is the most superior of all forms of knowledge in every field? I do not feel that by logical thinking I can elevate myself spiritually. So at the very core, as regards spiritual matters, rationalism is not beneficial. It has only the limited utility of running my spiritual affairs smoothly. The kernel or the source of knowledge remains the divine link within my heart.

 

[themadhair]

Can you please elaborate? (On the reasons being entirely different part)

What you present you feel is a positive. Illogical, irrational beliefs are not positives. Not only have you recognised that your own beliefs are illogical and irrational, you ludicrously rationalised then to yourself by trying to envisage such irrationality as a positive thing. That isn’t just an indictment against you beliefs – it is also an indictment on the effect those beliefs are having on your cognitive faculties.

Why do you feel that reason is the most superior of all forms of knowledge in every field?

Reason is not, in and of itself, knowledge. It is a means by which we can attempt to ascertain the truthfulness of a piece of knowledge. Equating reason with knowledge makes no sense, and I do wonder what mindset one must be in to have accepted such a false equivocation.

So at the very core, as regards spiritual matters, rationalism is not beneficial.

This ties into what I wrote above. Logic and reason are two of the most successful methodologies we, as human beings, have for differentiating true claims from false claims. Science, which is the most successful methodology for acquiring knowledge, is testament to the value and strength of logic and reason in determining fact from fiction. By acknowledging that logic and reason are not beneficial to your spiritual matters you are announcing that you do not care for the truthfulness of your beliefs.

 

[A-ManESL]

What you present you feel is a positive. Illogical, irrational beliefs are not positives. Not only have you recognised that your own beliefs are illogical and irrational, you ludicrously rationalised then to yourself by trying to envisage such irrationality as a positive thing. That isn’t just an indictment against you beliefs – it is also an indictment on the effect those beliefs are having on your cognitive faculties.

Reason is not, in and of itself, knowledge. It is a means by which we can attempt to ascertain the truthfulness of a piece of knowledge. Equating reason with knowledge makes no sense, and I do wonder what mindset one must be in to have accepted such a false equivocation.

This ties into what I wrote above. Logic and reason are two of the most successful methodologies we, as human beings, have for differentiating true claims from false claims. Science, which is the most successful methodology for acquiring knowledge, is testament to the value and strength of logic and reason in determining fact from fiction. By acknowledging that logic and reason are not beneficial to your spiritual matters you are announcing that you do not care for the truthfulness of your beliefs.

Firstly I do not recognize irrationality/illogicality as a positive thing and have never claimed so. I do not know how you derived at this conclusion. Perhaps you should read my posts again. Rather I claim that rationalism is not the appropriate tool for deriving knowledge about spiritual matters. It simply does not suffice in that case as the subjects in question are not based on it. I claim that the appropriate tool is the divine link within our heart (and not irrationality just to be clear). Also just to be clear, when it comes to practical everyday activities I support applying logic rationalism etc and am a perfectly rational person (at least I believe so).

I am perfectly aware of the distinction between reason and knowledge. I miswrote when I said "Why do you feel that reason is the most superior of all forms of knowledge..". Instead I meant to say "Why do you feel that reason is the most superior of all forms of gaining knowledge..". Anyway that I feel is unneccessary haggling.
You say:

Logic and reason are two of the most successful methodologies we, as human beings, have for differentiating true claims from false claims.

I do not accept the universal validity of logic and reason as the method of gaining knowledge and for passing judgments. They are only succesful when dealing with matters of this world. They fail when dealing with matters of the metaphysical world because the metaphysical world doesn't come under their purview. (Although even here as I have said in my previous post they still have a utility. That doesn't imply that they are the best tools.) I do not think being a good logician would advance me spiritually. Perhaps you believe that they have universal validity: You are privileged to your own opinions of course. But without proof, even empirical in nature ( I have never heard of a highly spiritual person claiming that he achieved this status by virtue of being an excellent logician) perhaps its not proper to condemn other tools as being stupid and useless. (As an aside, if you believe in God and the superiority of logic I would be very interested in hearing your scientific proof for the existence of God, for the immortality of the spirit etc.)

Now I'll suppose that you claim that you reject that God exists. (I do not really know your view on God. This assumption is just for illustrative purposes. If you do believe in God, or both don't reject or accept God then please do not read the following paragraphs as being applied on yourself). If you are doing so on the basis of reason, then you must first prove the objective validity of this method of reason to judge everything. What's more this objective validity must have a self evident proof. To use reason to judge reason itself would be becoming a self judge, something to be deplored. Perhaps you would agree with me that the method of reason has now started running into difficulties. My intention here is to just illustrate the limitations of applying reason to this approach. They may be resolved perchance, indeed an atheist has probably resolved them but that is his personal viewpoint.

Or you must be rejecting God on the basis of lack of any reasonable evidence in God. In that case, if someone has experienced God through a method you are ignorant of, then you have no basis to reject his method merely by saying that since I do not know of this, so it cannot be. Hence for this case again although you may choose to believe what you wish, but have no concrete basis of rejecting other's belief.

Summary:
Reason works in the practical world, that doesn't imply that it works in the metaphysical world. The spiritual matters are based on the knowledge obtained through the heart. Many Mystics, Sufis, other holy men etc have used this way to increase their spiritual status.

Science, which is the most successful methodology for acquiring knowledge, is testament to the value and strength of logic and reason in determining fact from fiction.

A comment:
There are some epistemological issues (such as whether real knowledge is gained by the empirical methods of science at all) involved here which can possibly be the subject of another thread.

Regards.

 

[YmirGF]

Not really. I persume my sort of equating faith with something irrational has led you to feel that way. Why do you feel that reason is the most superior of all forms of knowledge in every field?

My feelings played no part in my observation, A-ManESL. My observation is simply a logical extrapolation based on your own comments. The crux of the issue is that if so-called "spiritual matters" are not covered adequately by reason and logic, by definition, in your opinion, such areas are then indeed illogical. Sadly, the more illogical a concept is, the greater the likelihood that the concept is flawed.

To answer your second question, I believe reason and logic trumps all else because one of my core beliefs is that, for the most part, there is a reason for everything -- even if that reason is not obvious or clearly understandable. There is also the nagging possibility that sometimes the reason is that there is no reason at all. Some things do just happen by chance or are a result of randomness.

I do not feel that by logical thinking I can elevate myself spiritually. So at the very core, as regards spiritual matters, rationalism is not beneficial.

I do understand what you are trying to say, however, I do not share the same viewpoints any longer. You are a victim of your beliefs about reality.

Perceptions emanate from the individual's beliefs about reality. Their thoughts, based on the individual's perceptions, in turn, directly support said beliefs (in the form of daily affirmations that tell them that their perceptions are correct. It is akin to cat and mouse. You tell yourself that part of your experience (perceptions) cannot be logically explained, but that is largely due to the fact that your are simply entranced by the idea that such events cannot be expressed in rational verbal terms. It is because of this core belief, about the nature of reality, that you feel the way you do and have difficulty expressing this vital aspect of your experience. I could be wrong, but that is the way I see it.

It (rationalism) has only the limited utility of running my spiritual affairs smoothly. The kernel or the source of knowledge remains the divine link within my heart.

I don't wish to denigrate emotions however emotional responses are also governed by beliefs. In my view, such beliefs reinforce a separation within the self, between reason and emotion. Personally speaking, I wouldn't be comfortable doing that.

 

[A-ManESL]

My feelings played no part in my observation, A-ManESL. My observation is simply a logical extrapolation based on your own comments. The crux of the issue is that if so-called "spiritual matters" are not covered adequately by reason and logic, by definition, in your opinion, such areas are then indeed illogical. Sadly, the more illogical a concept is, the greater the likelihood that the concept is flawed.

To answer your second question, I believe reason and logic trumps all else because one of my core beliefs is that, for the most part, there is a reason for everything -- even if that reason is not obvious or clearly understandable. There is also the nagging possibility that sometimes the reason is that there is no reason at all. Some things do just happen by chance or are a result of randomness.


I do understand what you are trying to say, however, I do not share the same viewpoints any longer. You are a victim of your beliefs about reality.

Perceptions emanate from the individual's beliefs about reality. Their thoughts, based on the individual's perceptions, in turn, directly support said beliefs (in the form of daily affirmations that tell them that their perceptions are correct. It is akin to cat and mouse. You tell yourself that part of your experience (perceptions) cannot be logically explained, but that is largely due to the fact that your are simply entranced by the idea that such events cannot be expressed in rational verbal terms. It is because of this core belief, about the nature of reality, that you feel the way you do and have difficulty expressing this vital aspect of your experience. I could be wrong, but that is the way I see it.

I don't wish to denigrate emotions however emotional responses are also governed by beliefs. In my view, such beliefs reinforce a separation within the self, between reason and emotion. Personally speaking, I wouldn't be comfortable doing that.

After carefully reading your post I feel that I personally have been in the wrong as my previous posts have been of slightly argumentative nature and in my excitement I wrote somethings which I hadn't properly grasped myself. I have now slightly revised my views. What you say about there being a reason for everything seems sensible to me too. So I no longer claim that spiritual matters are entirely non-logical. I am not fundamentally retracting my position, though, and still believe that faith stems from the divine Element in one's heart. No small part of my error was based on mixing science with logic and reason and using the same word logic/reason/rationalism for science as well. That the two are related is true, but it is not correct to use the two concepts interchangeably. The word science conveys the sense of empirical measurements, of hypotheses and conclusions. In that sense science is actually an empirical discipline. Logic is a formal discipline.

The so called spiritual matters that we have been referring to on and off, basically consist of two things : belief and faith in the divine and ways to nourish and grow in that faith. My posts have previously failed to distinguish between them which I will do so now.

The former can be classified with the reason why people believe in the existence of God/ metaphysical Reality/Supreme Being/Buddhaood etc. I reaffirm that this is because not of any logical reason, rather it is the divine Element within the human being, which gives him the intuition that such a Reality exists. As such, this belief or faith is illogical on the principles of ordinary reason. I do not believe that this belief in God is founded on the fact that an individual's perception of him, or the fact that this intution of God stems from any individualistic illusion, rather this belief stems from a factor which is over and above an individual, but present within every person's heart nevertheless. (I accept that your argument about even this being my illusion stands; I do not rule out that this is a possibility; but it is not the only possibility and my divine origin theory is also possible. I could be wrong but this is the way I see it. Moreover I believe that as a person grows spiritually these doubts get automatically resolved.)

You think that my belief in the fact that God cannot be logically described exists because I have hypnotised myself in believing that it is difficult to explain Him rationally, but I assure you that that I have arrived at this conclusion after trying to explain God's existence logically for a long time. After failing to find an adequate justification, and yet as I was sure of Him, I arrived at this conclusion. It may perhaps interest you to know that this view of mine is not mine alone: rather I found yesterday that it is shared by others as well.

Now to the ways of nourishing and growing one's faith. I have earlier said that logic and rationalism is of limited utility in spiritual matters. I will now retract this statement, in light of what this discussion has taught me, and claim that a reason based approach is the most suitable for developing one's spiritual level. However this statement needs to be interpreted properly.

Before proceeding to explain, I will sketch a small situation. Imagine you visit a society where people take no sleep, and thus have no conception of dreaming. Your aim is to educate the population about dreams. Since merely talking and discussion are not sufficient to completely convince the people about dreams you must teach to them sleep properly first. This whole project may seem to be lacking in reason to some people, they have no justification for the truth of your assertion about dreams. Even if they believe you, they have no justification for believing that sleeping properly is going to give them dreams. (I admit that I am not bothering about the scientific evidence of any direct correlation between proper sleeping and dreaming, this is all for illustrative purposes after all). Since you are aware of the truth your method seems perfectly reasonable to you, yet it might seem unreasonable to those who are ignorant of the true nature of dreaming. In a similar way, the ways of increasing one's spiritual level (for example submission and crushing of one's Ego) may (or may not) prima facie seem unreasonable to its ordinary adherents but they are really there for a good reason. The prophets/mystics/holy men are the teachers who being aware of the truth know that explanantions cannot possibly suffice, thus they teach us the way to increase our spiritual status without giving due explanations (just like the concept of dream is not easy to explain and must be taught through experience). So in summary, there is a reason for everything, yes, but our ignorance prevents us from understanding it in all cases.

Finally I still retain a aversion to the scientific method being used for spiritual matters, in light of little evidence for the same, and my own natural temperament. I haven't read about any mystic to-date who achieved great spiritual status through scientific means.

Regards.

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

The Quran proves many scientific facts that were discovered centuries after the Prophet's time.

Since someone already answered point by point i would like to provide a different "hook" for your thinking.

If I were you I would ask myself the following question:
"Why don't scientists that are confronted with the supposed proofs, convert?"

Basically you should end up with two possibilities:
1) All scientists are evil or rejecters of clear and visible proof
2) Obviously there is no real proof in the quran

If you follow the first answer then you sadly end up in a paradox since you claim that the proofs would have been verified by the very same scientists whom you attest to be dishonorable.

If you follow the second answer then you end up where actually all people not beliving in the quran already are.

 

[Autodidact]

Can you please elaborate? (On the reasons being entirely different part)



Not really. I persume my sort of equating faith with something irrational has led you to feel that way. Why do you feel that reason is the most superior of all forms of knowledge in every field? I do not feel that by logical thinking I can elevate myself spiritually. So at the very core, as regards spiritual matters, rationalism is not beneficial. It has only the limited utility of running my spiritual affairs smoothly. The kernel or the source of knowledge remains the divine link within my heart.

I agree completely. Your religious faith is totally irrational.

 

[MSizer]

there is a reason for everything, yes, but our ignorance prevents us from understanding it in all cases.
Regards.

While that may be a true statement, and I respect your humility in the way you present your views, there are those of us who are equally sure that your unssubstantial claims are simply false. To say that another human can't understand becuase they haven't experienced it would be exactly as if I were to say to you "but the giant speghetti monster hovering above us isn't visible to you, so you'll just have to trust me, since I do have the ability to see it".

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE themadhair]Another scientific illiterate. Let’s take these one at a timeEnd quote)

Response: Yes, let's..

(Quote Themadhair)
The koran clearly implies that the earth was created before the heavens, so any attempt at defending this as a comparison to big bang fail horribly.(End quote)

Response: There's the statement. Where's the proof?

(Quote Themadhair) My koran goes as follows:
“ Those who disbelieve say: The Hour will never come unto us. Say: Nay, by my Lord, but it is coming unto you surely. (He is) the Knower of the Unseen. Not an atom's weight, or less than that or greater, escapeth Him in the heavens or in the earth, but it is in a clear Record, ”
Doesn’t say any such thing about atoms not being the smallest unit or in any way indicate that there exists smaller particles. You’d think you chaps would at least read your own holy book, but alas in your fervour to **** on scientific discovery it seems not.(End quote)

Response: Denial is always an option. You've just quoted the words of the qur'an and can't comprehend the simple words which you've quoted. Again, you quoted:

"Not an atom's weight, or less than that or greater, escapeth Him in the heavens or in the earth, but it is in a clear Record." It can't get any clearer than that.

(Quote Themadhair)
Greeks had actually measured the size of the earth before the koran was ever written so a round earth is hardly special. Unless you suddenly think the Greeks worthy of worship but I don’t see you doing that. That would require some amount of intellectual honesty.(End quote)

Response: Yes, but the greeks were completely wrong and way off in their measurements of the size of the earth.

(Quote Themadhair)
My koran ahs 7:54 as “ Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then mounted He the Throne. He covereth the night with the day, which is in haste to follow it, and hath made the sun and the moon and the stars subservient by His command. His verily is all creation and commandment. Blessed be Allah, the Lord of the Worlds! ”
Nothing about going around the sun there. You have read the koran haven’t you?(End quote)

Response: Your inability to refute the claim is evidence enough.

(Quote Themadhair)
That area is clearly lower. And since you regard this a miracle you clearly think Muhammad wouldn’t have knowledge of the rest of the world. So why do you think it strange that Muhammad thought the lowest area in his region was the lowest? If this qualifies as a miracle to you then you have much lower standards than I.


Surprisingly other cultures were also on the ball here. The giant squid was the stuff of folklore centuries before science ever conformed it. Even our lot, the Celts, had legends about this (they called it Coinchenn) so nothing particularly miraculous here.(End quote)

Response: Once again, your inability to refute the claim is very telling.

(Quote Themadhair)
The existence of brackish waters sort of throws a spanner into this. Where separation does occur it isn’t due to salinity but temperature, and to anyone living in such an area the phenomenon is easily observed. This can only be considered miraculous if the koran’s author was a moron incapable of talking to any traveller familiar with those regions. Not a miracle but common knowledge to anyone well-travelled to those regions.(End quote)

Response: Another illogical rebuttle. More statements, no proof. Just a statement.

(Quote Themadhair)
Outright false since mountainous regions are among the most tectonically active regions on earth. This was battered to death in a thread somewhere on this forum where one of your fellow Muslims made a giant arse out of themselves trying to defend this.(End quote)

Response: Referring to the same thread in which you became so frustrated with your lack of evidence to prove the qur'an wrong that in a particular post, you cried out for help by increasing the size of the font about 10x in bold lettering to draw attention to yourself?

(Quote Themadhair)
This was known since Pompeii in around 70AD. To really emphasise the point, there were much equipment used for building and plastering recovered in Pompeii because they were rebuilding from the earthquake that proceeded the eruption that buried the town. Known nearly five centuries before the koran.(End quote)

Response: There's the statement. Where's the proof?

(Quote Themadhair)
You think it a miracle that someone guessed that heavier material would be under lighter material? A principle we observe almost everyday in our lives? And you think this miraculous?(End Quote)

Response: You think that simply "saying" that someone "guessed" that heavier material would be under lighter material is actual "proof" that it took place? And you think this is actual proof?

(Quote Themadhair)
My koran reads differently for 25:61 than your interpretation – “ Blessed be He Who hath placed in the heaven mansions of the stars, and hath placed therein a great lamp and a moon giving light! ” The moon isn’t a source of light and nowhere in this passage is a comparison drawn between the sun and the stars. In fact this is simply a reiteration of the Judeo-Christian creation myth involving the firmament. Not only wrong, but plagiarised.(End quote)

Response: Not only another statement, but another with no evidence to support it.

(Quote Themadhair)
My koran gives the following for 65:12:
” Allah it is who hath created seven heavens, and of the earth the like thereof. The commandment cometh down among them slowly, that ye may know that Allah is Able to do all things, and that Allah surroundeth all things in knowledge.”
Nowhere is there any indication that the author knew of other planets. The seven heavens is that creation story again.(End quote)

Response: "that Allah is Able to do all things, and that Allah surroundeth all things in knowledge." So what part of your own post didn't you inderstand?

(Quote Themadhair)
My koran gives “ And the breath of morning ”. Nothing to give any indication about plants involved there. If anything your interpretation should be about the breath of night, which it isn’t, so even by your own attempt to fit this into science you are wrong.(End quote)

Response: Even in your words, if the morning breathe's, it obviously refers to plants, because the act of plants producing oxygen and receiving carbon dioxide occurs in sunlight, and when the sun comes out, the beginning of the day is called "morning". So the breathe of morning must refer to plants. Unless, you want to inform us that you breathe another way.

(Quote Themadhair)
Plagiarised from the works of the Greek physician Galen who wrote this account five centuries before the koran. The reason I am so confident it was plagiarised is because the koran also plagiarised the mistakes Galen made. Does believing the koran to be miraculous involve ignorance of history and an unwillingness to research history?(End quote)

Response: Does the continuous inability to produce the slightest bit of evidence for you claims somehow makes the claim logical?

(Quote Themadhair)
Why do you not worship Galen? He, after all, came up with this centuries before the koran?(End quote)

Response: Why not provide proof for your statent. After all, you do have it right?

(Quote Themadhair)
My koran reads “ Hast thou not seen how Allah wafteth the clouds, then gathereth them, then maketh them layers, and thou seest the rain come forth from between them; He sendeth down from the heaven mountains wherein is hail, and smiteth therewith whom He will, and averteth it from whom He will. The flashing of His lightning all but snatcheth away the sight. ” All I can see here is the author describing different clouds and that hail and lightening come form the clouds. I don’t think there has been a civilisation to have existed on the face of the earth that didn’t know this. Hell, I’m pretty sure any person with two eyes could discover this. Even the fricking animals probably know this.(End quote)

Response: Exactly, you "think" so.

(Quote Themadhair)
To sum up – you lot are a laughing stock when it comes to science when you make claims like the above. Seriously, what mental block or research disfigurement prevented you from doing the above analysis that I have done????????

But do you know what really bugs me here? That you would post this **** without having bothered to confirm it or do your homework on it. If you read the koran on your own you wouldn’t have interpreted those versus as you did above. Those interpretations you read somewhere rather than discover. Regurgitation, rather than understanding, is pointless.(End quote)

Response: Yet your own responses prove to the contrary.