The Luciferianism DIR Overview

[Kapalika]

The part highlighted in magenta above is in direct opposition to that which is highlighted in green below:

Does anyone have a way to reconcile these? Would it be productive to do so? Is this not the difference between the western right hand path and the western left hand path?

The part in green is just the quality you associate with Lucifer and which you try to emulate or respect or venerate.. in your case I would suppose it would be liberation.

So you are not contradicting my statement as far as I can tell. My statement did not indicate what those attributes were. It was left open ended on purpose.

Nitpick over the word choice if you will but recognize it basically all means about the same thing in this context. The difference is nuanced if any

Actually, all I did was say what the first sentence of wikipedia says but with a little bit extra:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luciferianism

"Luciferianism is a belief system that venerates the essential characteristics that are affixed to Lucifer."


Can we seriously not agree on this single statement?

What attributes? Affixed by whom?

Self identification is how your see yourself or identifying yourself with someone or something else.
Isn't this a given in any belief system / philosophy?

It is a given, but it's about one of if not the only given in Luciferianism from what I've seen over the years. From Ford to the quasi-gnostics to the more satanic-like ones, it greatly varies.

As for who it's affixed by, it's the Luciferian, you basically even agree with me:

• A Luciferian does not blindly accept commonly held truths, but questions and investigates everything and arrives at their own conclusions through this personal exploration.

• 
  
  
  While I don't fully agree with the wording or with the scope to which this extends, it *will* include the definition of Luciferianism to be decided by the Luciferian.
  
  So I don't see why we would be in disagreement here that it's anyone's claim as to what it means to be a Luciferian, since every Luciferian will come to their own conclusion based on their own meanings and experiences.​

 

[Kapalika]

My only issue with this would be rejecting all truth and finding it yourself. For me Luciferianism is very much about knowledge, and things like science give us knowledge. Never in a million years could we personally verify all knowledge ourselves. It opens the door too far for anyone who comes to any sort of nonsense and push the nonsense as true, with nothing to stop them. Creationists and flat earthers, for example, reject known truths and come to their own.

I was making the exact same point earlier;

I wouldn't say that I "reject all accepted truths". Rather, science and reason lead me to conclude that some accepted truths are (most likely) true, and some accepted truths are (most likely) not true.

Glad to see that someone else made it too.

Update:

• Luciferianism is a modern term for the magico-spiritual attainment of inner power through applicable knowledge of one's individual self.
• A Luciferian does not blindly accept commonly held truths, but questions and investigates everything and arrives at their own conclusions through this personal exploration.
  
• The balance of Light and Darkness, the Objective and the Subjective are of equal importance to the Luciferian.

I would say I'm mostly in agreement with this, but maybe a slight tweak or an additional bullet point. I'll have to think about it.

Edit:

Maybe something to cover the fact that a lot of Luciferians have certain values that they assign to the path as important. The second point covers probably the most important and pervasive aspect but its by far not the only one. This could just be a general statement without any specifics. But then in my mind giving a nod to the gnostic roots is kind of left out then.

I mean, this is the problem I have with overviews like this in general. It tends to lean more towards certain viewpoints. While I would 95% agree with all 3 points (even if I would add a point or two that are important to me if I were defining my own personal view) I know that some Luciferians might be more theistic or gnostic so to speak. But despite that it's at least concise and fairly accurate for most people you will meet who identify as Luciferian.

 

[EtuMalku]

I was making the exact same point earlier;



Glad to see that someone else made it too.



I would say I'm mostly in agreement with this, but maybe a slight tweak or an additional bullet point. I'll have to think about it.

Edit:

Maybe something to cover the fact that a lot of Luciferians have certain values that they assign to the path as important. The second point covers probably the most important and pervasive aspect but its by far not the only one. This could just be a general statement without any specifics. But then in my mind giving a nod to the gnostic roots is kind of left out then.

I mean, this is the problem I have with overviews like this in general. It tends to lean more towards certain viewpoints. While I would 95% agree with all 3 points (even if I would add a point or two that are important to me if I were defining my own personal view) I know that some Luciferians might be more theistic or gnostic so to speak. But despite that it's at least concise and fairly accurate for most people you will meet who identify as Luciferian.

Definitely bring up your ideas

 

[Kapalika]

Okay, basically maybe a 4th point to mention that Luciferians can be atheist, theist, gnostic or anything else and that they may or may not have additional values that they hold as important to the path.

I'm not the most articulated at the moment, but you get the idea. It would help a lot of people checking out the DIR to also know that it's not strictly theistic or atheistic. And we then have basically mentioned the quasi-gnostic roots and cover any other future disagreement, since it also covers the fact that you can have a bunch of other values added to the mix without actually listing anything least someone disagree.

I can't really see any Luciferian I've ever known disagreeing with the 3 points we have now other than nitpicking (which I admit I did some of earlier on the first point). It was really the second point that needed reworked and I really like it now that that is fixed.

 

[Aštra’el]

I don't venerate. (Or at least, I try not to. It kinda goes against the grain of liberating yourself from that.)

You really try not to regard anything with great respect and honor?

 

[Adramelek]

• Luciferianism is a modern term for the magico-spiritual attainment of inner power through applicable knowledge of one's individual self.
• A Luciferian does not blindly accept commonly held truths, but questions and investigates everything and arrives at their own conclusions through this personal exploration.
  
• The balance of Light and Darkness, the Objective and the Subjective are of equal importance to the Luciferian.

I think we all should take a vote on Etu's definition as being the official Luciferianism DIR statement.

I vote yes to the above being the official Luciferianism DIR overview statement on RF.

 

[crossfire]

You really try not to regard anything with great respect or honor?

I avoid constant veneration, especially in a ritual setting, as this will tend to

• disable the skeptical questioning necessary to obtaining knowledge
• cause bias perceptions that could lead to delusion

 

[1137]

I think we all should take a vote on Etu's definition as being the official Luciferianism DIR statement.

I vote yes to the above being the official Luciferianism DIR overview statement on RF.

I do not feel you and I should get a vote in the end.

 

[crossfire]

Edit:

Maybe something to cover the fact that a lot of Luciferians have certain values that they assign to the path as important. The second point covers probably the most important and pervasive aspect but its by far not the only one. This could just be a general statement without any specifics. But then in my mind giving a nod to the gnostic roots is kind of left out then.

I mean, this is the problem I have with overviews like this in general. It tends to lean more towards certain viewpoints. While I would 95% agree with all 3 points (even if I would add a point or two that are important to me if I were defining my own personal view) I know that some Luciferians might be more theistic or gnostic so to speak. But despite that it's at least concise and fairly accurate for most people you will meet who identify as Luciferian.

The first point is the end goal. The second point is a means to that end. The third point is a compliment to the second, to help guard against perception bias and delusion.

 

[crossfire]

Update:

• Luciferianism is a modern term for the magico-spiritual attainment of inner power through applicable knowledge of one's individual self.
• A Luciferian does not blindly accept commonly held truths, but questions and investigates everything and arrives at their own conclusions through this personal exploration.
  
• The balance of Light and Darkness, the Objective and the Subjective are of equal importance to the Luciferian.

On point #3, would harmony be a better word for balance, as balance is thinking inside the box, while harmony can transcend the box?

Would this possible update be beneficial towards providing more clarity?

• The harmony between Light and Darkness and between the Objective and the Subjective are of great importance to the Luciferian.

 

[EtuMalku]

On point #3, would harmony be a better word for balance, as balance is thinking inside the box, while harmony can transcend the box?

Would this possible update be beneficial towards providing more clarity?

• The harmony between Light and Darkness and between the Objective and the Subjective are of great importance to the Luciferian.

YES!!! . . .Good catch

 

[EtuMalku]

Fundamental Luciferianism

• Luciferianism is a modern term for the magico-spiritual attainment of inner power through applicable knowledge of one's individual self.
• A Luciferian does not blindly accept commonly held truths, but questions and investigates everything and arrives at their own conclusions through this personal exploration.
• The harmony between Light and Darkness and between the Objective and the Subjective are of great importance to the Luciferian.

*This analysis was determined through extracting the basic ideologies from all of the Luciferian schools of thought, their specific tenets omitted allowing a fundamental and unifying basis for Luciferianism.

 

[Kapalika]

Fundamental Luciferianism

• Luciferianism is a modern term for the magico-spiritual attainment of inner power through applicable knowledge of one's individual self.
• A Luciferian does not blindly accept commonly held truths, but questions and investigates everything and arrives at their own conclusions through this personal exploration.
• The harmony between Light and Darkness and between the Objective and the Subjective are of great importance to the Luciferian.

*This analysis was determined through extracting the basic ideologies from all of the Luciferian schools of thought, their specific tenets omitted allowing a fundamental and unifying basis for Luciferianism.

I still suggest we add a point 4 (feel free to edit it as needed):

"A Lucifierian can be atheist, theist, follow the gnostic roots or have any other philosophical persuasion and even hold a variety of other values pertaining to their path since Luciferianism is a path of the individual and not of any one theology as many Luciferians abstain from theology and dogma.

This meshes well with point 2, and covers a lot of various interpretation that can happen as a result of it while also communicating the diversity of Luciferianism.

If we add this point I think it would also negate any calls for future revision since it would cover pretty much anything else someone might say. I'm just wanting us to be objective in that we nod to the variety of Luciferian opinions. I'm not theist of gnostic but looking back it seems both have frequented this board before and I've known plenty in my own life.

I avoid constant veneration, especially in a ritual setting, as this will tend to

• disable the skeptical questioning necessary to obtaining knowledge
• cause bias perceptions that could lead to delusion

Wait honest question but then wouldn't be being skeptical and avoiding bias be the values that you greatly seek to emulate? I don't see how that's not venerating skepticism.

 

[crossfire]

I avoid constant veneration, especially in a ritual setting, as this will tend to

• disable the skeptical questioning necessary to obtaining knowledge
• cause bias perceptions that could lead to delusion

<...>

Wait honest question but then wouldn't be being skeptical and avoiding bias be the values that you greatly seek to emulate? I don't see how that's not venerating skepticism.

Veneration implies a person, rather than concept, and is especially associated with ritual and/or custom. I neither venerate skepticism ritually, nor do I see skepticism as a person or an object to venerate.
from Merriam-Webster:

⦁ Full Definition of venerate
venerated
venerating
1. transitive verb
2. 1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
3. 2 : to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion

Full Definition of deference

1. : respect and esteem due a superior or an elder; also : affected or ingratiating regard for another's wishes

Veneration is not a word that fits in with my Luciferian practice and skepticism at all. Relying on {related the word "religion"} or trusting in might be better choices of words to describe my skepticism, but veneration does not fit at all.

 

[crossfire]

I think the bolded part of this line from the wiki article on Luciferianism is also worthy of consideration:

For Luciferians, enlightenment is the ultimate goal. The basic Luciferian principles highlight truth and freedom of will, worshipping the inner self and one’s ultimate potential. Traditional dogma is shunned as a basis for morality on the grounds that humans should not need deities or fear of eternal punishment to distinguish right from wrong and to do good. All ideas should be tested before being accepted, and even then one should remain skeptical because knowledge and understanding are fluid.​

This would serve as a safeguard for the individuation of the superego/conscience into the individual's personality, rather than seeking the repression and/or destruction of it. (Thereby distinguishing Luciferianism from the path of the psychopath.)

What say ye?

 

[Adramelek]

I do not feel you and I should get a vote in the end.

Perhaps, but I don't think those here who use Luciferian in their title or religion would mind you or I weighing in just a bit. I love my Luciferian cousins! #EtuMalku, #Crossfire.

 

[EtuMalku]

Perhaps, but I don't think those here who use Luciferian in their title or religion would mind you or I weighing in just a bit. I love my Luciferian cousins! #EtuMalku, #Crossfire.

Probably up to the admins, I don't know the rules on this (or apparently any other rules )

 

[EtuMalku]

I think the bolded part of this line from the wiki article on Luciferianism is also worthy of consideration:

For Luciferians, enlightenment is the ultimate goal. The basic Luciferian principles highlight truth and freedom of will, worshipping the inner self and one’s ultimate potential. Traditional dogma is shunned as a basis for morality on the grounds that humans should not need deities or fear of eternal punishment to distinguish right from wrong and to do good. All ideas should be tested before being accepted, and even then one should remain skeptical because knowledge and understanding are fluid.​

This would serve as a safeguard for the individuation of the superego/conscience into the individual's personality, rather than seeking the repression and/or destruction of it. (Thereby distinguishing Luciferianism from the path of the psychopath.)

What say ye?

Wouldn't that exclude theistic Luciferians?

 

[crossfire]

Wouldn't that exclude theistic Luciferians?

Howso? You can be a theist and believe in freewill and the capacity for the knowledge of good and evil (conscience and/or superego.)

 

[EtuMalku]

Howso? You can be a theist and believe in freewill and the capacity for the knowledge of good and evil (conscience and/or superego.)

humans should not need deities or fear of eternal punishment to distinguish right from wrong and to do good.

Maybe I'm not understanding this correctly . . .