The Miracles of Hamas

[Shad]

If people didn't take everything the media reports at face value these kinds of surprises wouldn't happen nor would the ego driven outrage about being fooled as seen in this thread. If anyone is naive enough to believe everything coming out of Gaza or Israel is 100% fact or even remotely accurate carry on!

 

[metis]

No, it's just that getting a power plant up so that people can have electricity is actually a good thing.

It is up according to a CNN report.

 

[CMike]

The only way you could get rid of Hamas is to alienate them completely from the Palestinian people. When their message no longer resonates with Palestinians, their funding will be hurt and their recruiting will suffer. The only way to do that is to give Palestinians a viable option -- a plan to rebuild Gaza, establish an economy, and lift the embargoes. So far the motivation to quell terrorism from Gaza has been negative: making the citizens suffer greatly so they no longer support terrorists (whatever they happen to call themselves at the moment). This method hasn't worked.

A two state solution is the best endgame. The thing is, Palestinians need citizenship in a state and everyone has shut them out, forcing them into the strange position of being a stateless state with almost no recognition or ability to act internationally as a state.

The Gazans has hundreds of milions of dollars given to their government to build, instead they squandered it.

Hamas and the PA get funding because countries such as Qatar, Turkey, Iran, hate Israel enough to keep on funding them.

 

[CMike]

Also I've noted above that Ghandi's pattern only works when he oppressed adopt pacifism, so it would be the Palestinians that would be able to make it work.

However, my primary point is simply that if Israel were truly the good guys, and everything they did was as righteous as CMike thinks, then Israel could take the lead and actually do good.

Not killing people would be a good place to start.

Or we can support Israel's unique and creative forms of brutality as the evil that it is.

That wouldn't be taking the moral road, that would take the reckless and irresponsible road.

The first duty of government is to protect it's citizens. Allowing it's citizens to be massacred would be a really evil thing to do.

 

[CMike]

Well, as you should know, the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is probably the post disputed and biased histories in the world. CMike represents what I hope is the most extreme version of pro-Israel bias - most likely more so than even than Israeli leadership... unless they are truly wacko (which I doubt), they know when they do something immoral. In any case, my understanding of Israel's recent history at least from about 1980-today is shaped by Western news (that is, BBC reporting tapered by NPR and al-Jazeera). Pre-1980 is shaped by independent research from a variety of sources.

As for my opinions on Ghandi, he used pacifism to break the occupation of the British in India. His pacifism only works for the oppressed and plays on the conscience of the oppressor. So pacifism would only work if Hamas were pacifist and Israel, who has a conscience, would tire of their aggressions. Israel would tire quickly in some people's opinion because Israel is only defending itself. However, as I have expressed before, CMike thinks that Israel is so much more righteous than Hamas -- if so, it should take the high road and lay down its arms first. Not only that - it should send workers and money into Gaza to rebuild. There would perhaps be a high human cost of Hamas is as bad as they say that it is, but if Israel keeps sending resources in = just as Ghandi kept sending people before the British to be beaten and killed = eventually the Palestinians would relent. Or all Israel would perish, and if that happened, it would be in the name of peace rather than crushing an enemy in the name of greed.

My philosophy is very moderate.

I would be more than happy for Israel to work out deals with the arabs living in judea and samaria, and gaza, if there were arabs to work out a deal with.

Unfortunately, the arab leadership wants Israel totally destroyed period.

Israel is a very tiny land and can not give away the little land it has, which would make Israel less defensible, knowing that it really is not accomplishing nothing other than weakening Israel.

 

[CMike]

Originally Posted by Akivah
So, CMike showing that Hamas has false news stories means that CMike is depraved.

No, it's just that getting a power plant up so that people can have electricity is actually a good thing.

It seems you have missed the OP.

The plant director and the gaza electric authority both said that the plant was totally destroyed and would take at least a year to get it going again.

Yet, voila it's working.

It's almost as if they lied. That because they did lie.

 

[CMike]

No, I would rather they all reach a peaceful resolution. I would like Hamas to be gotten rid of. I would like for both sides to stay true to any peace agreement they make, one that ideally would include a two-state solution. But I guess my opinion is outnumbered.

There can't be a peaceful solution because the arab side doesn't want peace unless that peace includes kiling all the Jews there.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

My philosophy is very moderate

Not in my experience. But calling it a philosophy is very, very generous. A prejudiced worldview doesn't need to be built on rational thought.

Your approach is the most extreme that I've seen, and it's probably because a person with a more extremist view either wouldn't be interested in participating in wider human live OR this person is incapable of doing so.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

There can't be a peaceful solution because the arab side doesn't want peace unless that peace includes kiling all the Jews there.

It's this kind of 'thinking' that is quite extreme and completely (not partially) disconnected from any experience of reality.

Some source is feeding you this hatred - you're merely parroting what you've heard, and it's pathetic.

 

[dantech]

It's this kind of 'thinking' that is quite extreme and completely (not partially) disconnected from any experience of reality.

Some source is feeding you this hatred - you're merely parroting what you've heard, and it's pathetic.

That's funny coming from someone who suggested that Israel, a country surrounded by countries who are known to want to destroy it, have its weapons confiscated.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

That's funny coming from someone who suggested that Israel, a country surrounded by countries who are known to want to destroy it, have its weapons confiscated.

I didn't say that they should have their weapons confiscated.

I said that they should disarm = not be disarmed. The key is the notion of disarming willingly.

 

[dantech]

I didn't say that they should have their weapons confiscated.

I said that they should disarm = not be disarmed. The key is the notion of disarming willingly.

Regardless... in all scenarios, even the most optimistic ones, Israelis end up dead if they're disarmed.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Guys, calm down. In the end whatever we hear about any side is through the media or people talking. We never know what really happened.

All I care is the welfare of the bystanders. Hamas and the Israeli army can beat the hell of each other as much as they want.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Regardless... in all scenarios, even the most optimistic ones, Israelis end up dead if they're disarmed.

Yes, I agree. But it's not like Israeli's aren't willing to die for inhuman reasons. Israelis can continue to die for hatred and accomplish nothing, or they can die for peace and establish something great.

The point of this experiment is simple: we know that Israel has not accomplished peace using violence, selfishness, and greed. Perhaps something else that requires Israeli blood and sacrifice would yield a reward that benefits the entire region.

 

[Flankerl]

Yes, I agree. But it's not like Israeli's aren't willing to die for inhuman reasons. Israelis can continue to die for hatred and accomplish nothing, or they can die for peace and establish something great.

The point of this experiment is simple: we know that Israel has not accomplished peace using violence, selfishness, and greed. Perhaps something else that requires Israeli blood and sacrifice would yield a reward that benefits the entire region.

So Israel should disarm to let the peaceful forces of Liberation from its neighbours into the country and let them pacify Israel?

Great plan. Thats not crazy at all.

 

[icehorse]

Yes, I agree. But it's not like Israeli's aren't willing to die for inhuman reasons. Israelis can continue to die for hatred and accomplish nothing, or they can die for peace and establish something great.

The point of this experiment is simple: we know that Israel has not accomplished peace using violence, selfishness, and greed. Perhaps something else that requires Israeli blood and sacrifice would yield a reward that benefits the entire region.

So, should we use the rest of the region as a model for how things would turn out? What place in the region would you hold up as the shining example for us to consider?

 

[CMike]

Yes, I agree. But it's not like Israeli's aren't willing to die for inhuman reasons. Israelis can continue to die for hatred and accomplish nothing, or they can die for peace and establish something great.

The point of this experiment is simple: we know that Israel has not accomplished peace using violence, selfishness, and greed. Perhaps something else that requires Israeli blood and sacrifice would yield a reward that benefits the entire region.

Israelies die to protect their homeland and their lives.

Their arab neighbors die because of hate.

They could decide to have peace at any time, but they chose not to.

 

[CMike]

I didn't say that they should have their weapons confiscated.

I said that they should disarm = not be disarmed. The key is the notion of disarming willingly.

I have a better idea.

How about the arabs in judea, samaria, and gaza, stop launching terror attacks?

That would help a lot.

 

[CMike]

Yeesh...

» Muslim States Say Israel Has No Right to Self-Defense

 

[beenie]

Yeesh...

» Muslim States Say Israel Has No Right to Self-Defense

You have to come up with a better source than "jewsnews".

If any "Muslims" truly said that, then they are idiots.