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The Miracles of Hamas

A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
Does Israel? Or is a double standard needed to answer your rhetorical question?

Also I've noted above that Ghandi's pattern only works when he oppressed adopt pacifism, so it would be the Palestinians that would be able to make it work.

However, my primary point is simply that if Israel were truly the good guys, and everything they did was as righteous as CMike thinks, then Israel could take the lead and actually do good.

Not killing people would be a good place to start.

Or we can support Israel's unique and creative forms of brutality as the evil that it is.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
a_e -

And what slice of history are you using to form this opinion?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Also I've noted above that Ghandi's pattern only works when he oppressed adopt pacifism, so it would be the Palestinians that would be able to make it work.

However, my primary point is simply that if Israel were truly the good guys, and everything they did was as righteous as CMike thinks, then Israel could take the lead and actually do good.

Not killing people would be a good place to start.

Or we can support Israel's unique and creative forms of brutality as the evil that it is.

the opinion(s) stated above.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
the opinion(s) stated above.

Well, as you should know, the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is probably the post disputed and biased histories in the world. CMike represents what I hope is the most extreme version of pro-Israel bias - most likely more so than even than Israeli leadership... unless they are truly wacko (which I doubt), they know when they do something immoral. In any case, my understanding of Israel's recent history at least from about 1980-today is shaped by Western news (that is, BBC reporting tapered by NPR and al-Jazeera). Pre-1980 is shaped by independent research from a variety of sources.

As for my opinions on Ghandi, he used pacifism to break the occupation of the British in India. His pacifism only works for the oppressed and plays on the conscience of the oppressor. So pacifism would only work if Hamas were pacifist and Israel, who has a conscience, would tire of their aggressions. Israel would tire quickly in some people's opinion because Israel is only defending itself. However, as I have expressed before, CMike thinks that Israel is so much more righteous than Hamas -- if so, it should take the high road and lay down its arms first. Not only that - it should send workers and money into Gaza to rebuild. There would perhaps be a high human cost of Hamas is as bad as they say that it is, but if Israel keeps sending resources in = just as Ghandi kept sending people before the British to be beaten and killed = eventually the Palestinians would relent. Or all Israel would perish, and if that happened, it would be in the name of peace rather than crushing an enemy in the name of greed.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Actually, imho, the best way to end this conflict is to stop funding the Palestinians. People get remarkably cooperative when they are hungry enough.
 

beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Actually, imho, the best way to end this conflict is to stop funding the Palestinians. People get remarkably cooperative when they are hungry enough.

Ouch. Punish the entire population, including children, because Hamas is full of morons?
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Ouch. Punish the entire population, including children, because Hamas is full of morons?
Would you rather they be blown to smithereens? I'd rather see hungry children than body parts. Maybe it's just me.

The thing is, the people of Gaza, knowingly elected a terrorist group to represent them. Elections have consequences.
 
Last edited:

beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
No, I would rather they all reach a peaceful resolution. I would like Hamas to be gotten rid of. I would like for both sides to stay true to any peace agreement they make, one that ideally would include a two-state solution. But I guess my opinion is outnumbered.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
No, I would rather they all reach a peaceful resolution. I would like Hamas to be gotten rid of. I would like for both sides to stay true to any peace agreement they make, one that ideally would include a two-state solution. But I guess my opinion is outnumbered.

Maybe not. I think the two state solution is the best solution as well -- and so do a lot of other people.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
No, I would rather they all reach a peaceful resolution. I would like Hamas to be gotten rid of. I would like for both sides to stay true to any peace agreement they make, one that ideally would include a two-state solution. But I guess my opinion is outnumbered.
I used to think so too. I no longer see the two-state solution as being viable. The thing is, ssainhu, how do you get "rid of" Hamas? Do you think they would meekly sulk off into the sunset with their rockets in tow if the people of Gaza threw them out of power? Metaphorically, when you make a deal with the devil, you may find the terms more binding than you ever imagined.
 

Wirey

Fartist
Would you rather they be blown to smithereens? I'd rather see hungry children than body parts. Maybe it's just me.

The thing is, the people of Gaza, knowingly elected a terrorist group to represent them. Elections have consequences.

This is absolutely true. However, how informed is the electorate? Do they know they're being lied to by absolute slime? Or are they just mindless automatons?
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
This is absolutely true. However, how informed is the electorate? Do they know they're being lied to by absolute slime? Or are they just mindless automatons?

I don't see how they couldn't know the nature of Hamas.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
I used to think so too. I no longer see the two-state solution as being viable. The thing is, ssainhu, how do you get "rid of" Hamas? Do you think they would meekly sulk off into the sunset with their rockets in tow if the people of Gaza threw them out of power? Metaphorically, when you make a deal with the devil, you may find the terms more binding than you ever imagined.

The only way you could get rid of Hamas is to alienate them completely from the Palestinian people. When their message no longer resonates with Palestinians, their funding will be hurt and their recruiting will suffer. The only way to do that is to give Palestinians a viable option -- a plan to rebuild Gaza, establish an economy, and lift the embargoes. So far the motivation to quell terrorism from Gaza has been negative: making the citizens suffer greatly so they no longer support terrorists (whatever they happen to call themselves at the moment). This method hasn't worked.

A two state solution is the best endgame. The thing is, Palestinians need citizenship in a state and everyone has shut them out, forcing them into the strange position of being a stateless state with almost no recognition or ability to act internationally as a state.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Well, as you should know, the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is probably the post disputed and biased histories in the world. CMike represents what I hope is the most extreme version of pro-Israel bias - most likely more so than even than Israeli leadership... unless they are truly wacko (which I doubt), they know when they do something immoral. In any case, my understanding of Israel's recent history at least from about 1980-today is shaped by Western news (that is, BBC reporting tapered by NPR and al-Jazeera). Pre-1980 is shaped by independent research from a variety of sources.

As for my opinions on Ghandi, he used pacifism to break the occupation of the British in India. His pacifism only works for the oppressed and plays on the conscience of the oppressor. So pacifism would only work if Hamas were pacifist and Israel, who has a conscience, would tire of their aggressions. Israel would tire quickly in some people's opinion because Israel is only defending itself. However, as I have expressed before, CMike thinks that Israel is so much more righteous than Hamas -- if so, it should take the high road and lay down its arms first. Not only that - it should send workers and money into Gaza to rebuild. There would perhaps be a high human cost of Hamas is as bad as they say that it is, but if Israel keeps sending resources in = just as Ghandi kept sending people before the British to be beaten and killed = eventually the Palestinians would relent. Or all Israel would perish, and if that happened, it would be in the name of peace rather than crushing an enemy in the name of greed.

Thanks for this answer, let me elaborate a bit. When I try to study this situation it ends up boiling down to a list of back and forth historical events. Something like this, but this isn't accurate, it's meant to convey the nature of the history:

1920 - balfour - Britain screws up the land division
1930 - zionists do some stuff
1940 - arabs do some stuff
1948 - zionists do some bad stuff
1967 - arabs do some bad stuff
2005 - israel does some bad stuff
2007 - arabs do some bad stuff...

Again - the above IS NOT ACCURATE.

But I hope it conveys the sort of see-saw nature of this situation.

So, it seems to me that depending on where a person arbitrarily decides to start the clock ticking, you can come up with radically different perspectives about "good guys" and "bad guys" and so on.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
So, it seems to me that depending on where a person arbitrarily decides to start the clock ticking, you can come up with radically different perspectives about "good guys" and "bad guys" and so on.

So your question was completely irrelevant. Thanks.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
I don't believe you answered the question. That leaves me to believe that your opinions are informed by a patchwork quilt of pieces of the story that suit your preconceived notions.

If you're going to make something up, it may as well be self-serving and self-aggrandizing. Add an entertainment factor and it will be even better.

You asked an irrelevant question. I addressed it anyway. It's still irrelevant - as your fantasy here illustrates perfectly.

I'm too tired at the moment to make stuff up about you. And honestly - disinterested.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
If you're going to make something up, it may as well be self-serving and self-aggrandizing. Add an entertainment factor and it will be even better.

You asked an irrelevant question. I addressed it anyway. It's still irrelevant - as your fantasy here illustrates perfectly.

I'm too tired at the moment to make stuff up about you. And honestly - disinterested.

Let's review:

- You stated some opinions concerning Israel.
- I asked you what slice of history informed your opinions.
- You offered a long explanation, but vague explanation.
- I offered a summarized history - meant only to demonstrate the see-saw history of the conflict. I stated clearly that the summary WAS NOT ACCURATE. It was meant as a straw man proposal to use as a basis to understand in more detail what set of facts from your opinions.
- You blew me off.
- Your blow off, leads me to believe that you don't have a well reasoned answer.
- You threw out ludicrous straw man arguments and ad hominem attacks.

(I'm giving you the courtesy of assuming you know the difference between a straw man proposal and a straw man argument.)

But bottom line, having been asked respectfully, several times, you find ways to dance around answering the question.
 
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