The movement of the earth in Qur'an

[morphesium]

In Arabic, the word " یوم " refers to a period of time.

39: 5 "إِنَّ رَبَّكُمُ اللَّهُ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ"

The word "ایام" is the plural form of "یوم" that means a span of time.

Please read this hadith of Imam Ali(p.b.u.h.)[The first Imam of shia muslims]: "الدهرُ يَومانِ : يومٌ لكَ و يومٌ علَيكَ"
"This life consists of two spans of time - one period of time is for you and the other span of time is against you. "
This indicates that "یوم" doesn't mean a day( 24 houres) in Arabic, although it can be used for a day, because a day is a period of time, too.
But how much is this 6 periods of time in 39: 5, Quran has not say anything about it.

Then what is the purpose of saying 6 periods of time when "یوم" ( period of time) itself is not defined properly. eg; lets say I am going to buy 6 kg (or maybe some new unit ) of apples and if kilogram (or this new unit) is not defined properly, how does this makes sense.

Sorry, I happened to be quite rude in the last post. please forgive me if it did hurt you.

 

[mojtaba]

What or how much are these six spans of time - day?. Can you clearly define this time span, if not a day.

In Arabic, the word " یوم " refers to a period of time.

39: 5 " إِنَّ رَبَّكُمُ اللَّهُ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ "

The word "ایام" is the plural form of "یوم" that means a span of time.

Please read this hadith of Imam Ali(p.b.u.h.)[The first Imam of shia muslims]: "الدهرُ يَومانِ : يومٌ لكَ و يومٌ علَيكَ"
"This life consists of two spans of time - one period of time is for you and the other span of time is against you. "
This indicates that "یوم" doesn't mean a day( 24 houres) in Arabic, although it can be used for a day, because a day is a period of time, too.
But how much is this 6 periods of time in 39: 5, Quran has not say anything about it.

Allah created the stars and the planets (heavens) and then (ie, after some time) assigned power (gravity) to it.
Truth - gravity is the root cause; causing the interstellar clouds to aggregate which eventually formed stars and planets - not the other way.

ثُمَّ اسْتَوَىٰ عَلَى الْعَرْشِ
then (God) assumed all power to himself(not to it) [to control the creature(the universe)].
Notice that "then" is translation of "ثم" and ثم in this verse, means therefore. There are peoples that believe that God created the universe and went aside and doesn't manage it after creation. This verse of Qur'an says that creation and contrive is one thing and are not two separate things. So, then(ثم) means therefore.

 

[gnostic]

In Arabic, the word " یوم " refers to a period of time.

39: 5 " إِنَّ رَبَّكُمُ اللَّهُ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ "

The word "ایام" is the plural form of "یوم" that means a span of time.

Please read this hadith of Imam Ali(p.b.u.h.)[The first Imam of shia muslims]: "الدهرُ يَومانِ : يومٌ لكَ و يومٌ علَيكَ"
"This life consists of two spans of time - one period of time is for you and the other span of time is against you. "
This indicates that "یوم" doesn't mean a day( 24 houres) in Arabic, although it can be used for a day, because a day is a period of time, too.
But how much is this 6 periods of time in 39: 5, Quran has not say anything about it.

ثُمَّ اسْتَوَىٰ عَلَى الْعَرْشِ
then (God) assumed all power to himself(not to it) [to control the creature(the universe)].
Notice that "then" is translation of "ثم" and ثم in this verse, means therefore. There are peoples that believe that God created the universe and went aside and doesn't manage it after creation. This verse of Qur'an says that creation and contrive is one thing and are not two separate things. So, then(ثم) means therefore.

The thing is,"period of time" isn't very specific.

Period of time can mean anything from a few seconds to a few hours or few years, to billions of years.

Unless this "period of time" is more specific, then just about any number can be added, and then is no right or wrong on what period of time, since the verse wasn't specific in the 1st place.

And you are wrong. 24-hour is a period of time for a day, as is 7 days is period for a week.

I find that you would claim to know what is right, when the whole period of time crap is unspecified.

 

[psychoslice]

We don't believe that God is Who lives in the sky.
We believe that God hasn't any places, because He has created the space. Also, being in a place is one of the properties of the matter, and God is Who that has not body.
Holy Qur'an 42: 11 " there is nothing whatever like unto Him ".

Usul al-Kafi(one of the four major books of Shia Hadith), H 231, Ch. 6, h 2 : A man from Ma Wara' Nahr Balkh (Transoxania) came to abu al-Hassan al-Rida (a.s.)[ The eighth Shi'a Imam ] , and said, ‘I have a question for you. If your answer is the same as I already know, I will accept you as my Imam (leader with divine authority).’" Imam abul-Hassan (a.s.) replied, "Ask whatever you wish." The man said, "Tell me when did your Lord come into existence, how has He been and on what did He depend?"
Imam Abul-Hassan (a.s.), replied, "Allah, the Blessed, the Almighty, is the space maker of space, Who Himself is not subject to the effects of any space. He is the maker of How and Himself is not subject to How. He is Self-sufficient with His own power." The man stood up and kissed the head of the Imam (a.s.) and then said, "I testify that there is no God except Allah ... .

Allah, the father, whatever its all the same, what you call god is see as all there is, its the source, there is no need to even call it Allah or God, how could you put a name to that which is all, a label reduces it to a mere concept.

 

[gnostic]

Excuse me. The translation was not good.
Better translation:
He causes the night to flow into the day, and causes the day to flow into the night.

That is....no better.

It demonstrated that the author is A1 idiot, who have no idea what is day and night.

It doesn't matter what translation you use, or if you use the original language, the Qur'an speak in gibberish, and no amount of apologetic excuses will not make the Qur'an any more coherent.

 

[mojtaba]

Then what is the purpose of saying 6 periods of time when "یوم" ( period of time) itself is not defined properly. eg; lets say I am going to buy 6 kg (or maybe some new unit ) of apples and if kilogram (or this new unit) is not defined properly, how does this makes sense.

Sorry, I happened to be quite rude in the last post. please forgive me if it did hurt you.

No worries, you said me your idea.
This verse wants to say that the creation of the universe is gradual and doesn't want to say the precise duration of the formation of the universe.

 

[morphesium]

No worries, you said me your idea.
This verse wants to say that the creation of the universe is gradual and doesn't want to say the precise duration of the formation of the universe.

But then why 6 * (some period of time). simply some period of time would suffice.

 

[David M]

39:5
He created the heavens and the earth with Truth, and He folds up the day over the night and folds up the night over the day. He has subjected the sun and the moon (for humans).
All of them are running until an appointed time. Lo, He is the Most Mighty, the Most Forgiving.

It is clear and doesn't need any interpretation.

So what?

That passage is no more than a poetically phrased description of observable reality that (unsurprisingly) attributes said reality to a creator. It certainly says nothing about the movement of the earth that can't be seen by looking at the sky.

Were we were fixed by the evolution as to die at specific age ?IOW why humans live 80 years a bit less or more ?

You means by a lot less and a fair amount more.

 

[mojtaba]

Allah, the father, whatever its all the same, what you call god is see as all there is, its the source, there is no need to even call it Allah or God, how could you put a name to that which is all, a label reduces it to a mere concept.

45: 13 " And He has subjugated to you whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth, all of them are from Him ".

17: 110 " Say : Invoke God, or invoke the Most Gracious: by whichever name you invoke Him, for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names ".

Usul al-Kafi(one of the four major books of Shia Hadith), H 220, Ch. 2, h 6 " It is narrated from Imam abu Abdallah (p.b.u.h.)[the seventh Imam of Shia Muslims], who said this to an atheist on being asked a question ..... . The man asking questions then said, "What then is He?" The Imam said, "He is the Lord. He is the One Who is worshipped and He is Allah. When I say Allah, it does not mean establishing the proof for these letters (of alphabet) like Alif(A), Lam(L), Ha’(H)[ALLAH], al-Ra’(R) or al-Ba’(B)[RaB = Lord] but I intend thereby the meaning of a thing and a thing that is the Creator of all things and the Designer of all things. These letters only refer to the meaning that is called Allah, al-Rahman (the Beneficent), al-Rahim (the Merciful), al-‘Aziz (the Majestic) etc., of the other such names and He is the One Who is worshipped, the Majestic, the Glorious One." ".

 

[psychoslice]

45: 13 " And He has subjugated to you whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth, all of them are from Him ".

17: 110 " Say : Invoke God, or invoke the Most Gracious: by whichever name you invoke Him, for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names ".

Usul al-Kafi(one of the four major books of Shia Hadith), H 220, Ch. 2, h 6 " It is narrated from Imam abu Abdallah (p.b.u.h.)[the seventh Imam of Shia Muslims], who said this to an atheist on being asked a question ..... . The man asking questions then said, "What then is He?" The Imam said, "He is the Lord. He is the One Who is worshipped and He is Allah. When I say Allah, it does not mean establishing the proof for these letters (of alphabet) like Alif(A), Lam(L), Ha’(H)[ALLAH], al-Ra’(R) or al-Ba’(B)[RaB = Lord] but I intend thereby the meaning of a thing and a thing that is the Creator of all things and the Designer of all things. These letters only refer to the meaning that is called Allah, al-Rahman (the Beneficent), al-Rahim (the Merciful), al-‘Aziz (the Majestic) etc., of the other such names and He is the One Who is worshipped, the Majestic, the Glorious One." ".

I see, is your God a man, or is he like I see God, all that there is ?.

 

[gnostic]

This verse wants to say that the creation of the universe is gradual and doesn't want to say the precise duration of the formation of the universe.

That's because the author of the Qur'an doesn't know.

It is why the Qur'an is often vague with details, especially when it come to numbers. And even when the author do use numbers in some passages, it is often of mystic sense, not mathematical, because I think the author doesn't understand numbers, let alone maths.

If the Qur'an was more specific, then it will only review the author is truly ignorant or uneducated. Hence, the vagueness of the passages.

The author of the Qur'an have no desire to be "detailed" in his description, and preferred to spend more time praising god in passages with -

blah-blah-here (I am so powerful),
and blah-blah-there (I am know everything),
everywhere-blah-blah (and I am so ggrrrgreat)...
...and Old MacDonald had a farm, E-I-E-I-O. ​

I have never read a scripture before, where a god praised himself in 2nd or 3rd verse. It is actually really funny that god has a big cosmic head that he couldn't stop himself from praising himself.

 

[mojtaba]

But then why 6 * (some period of time). simply some period of time would suffice.

In Qur'an, it is said that heavens are formed in two stages(2 spans of time) and the Earth is created in two stages(2 spans of time) and also, living organisms are created in tow stages(2 spans of time). 2+2+2 = 6 stages.
Also, it is said in Qur'an that the raw material of heavens was something like smoke and heavens are created from this smoke.In addition, the number of them is seven and they was singular as one heaven, then became seven. As well, all planets and stars that we see are in the first heaven. Two stages of heavens formation maybe when they were smoke and when they became condensed.

Also,two stages of the Earth creation maybe when it was very hot and molten and when the Earth’s crust became cool to become habitable.

As well, two stages of the creation of the living organisms maybe when there were just prokaryotes in the Earth and when the eukaryotes were created.

41:9-12 " «9»Say: What! do you indeed disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two periods, and do you set up equals with Him? That is the Lord of the Worlds.«10» And He made in it mountains above its surface, and He blessed therein and ordained therein its provisions, in four periods(seasons) alike for the seekers.«11» And He applied His design to the heaven,which was [as] smoke; He said* to it and to the earth, “Come [into being], willingly or unwillingly!” both responded, “We do come in obedience.” «12» So He completed them as seven heavens in two periods, and He assigned to each heaven its command. And We adorned the lower heaven with stars, and (provided it) with guard(not to collapse). Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.
* This conversation is not like our conversation. It illustrates the power of God.

Remain two periods :
32: 4 " Allah is Who has created the heavens and the earth, and all between them, in six periods ".
This verse states that the earth and the heavens and all between them are created in six periods. Previous verses state that God created the heavens in two periods and the earth in two periods. Consequently, all between them( living organisms ) are created in two periods. Also this verse can indicate that there are living organisms in other planets besides the earth.

 

[mojtaba]

So what?

That passage is no more than a poetically phrased description of observable reality that (unsurprisingly) attributes said reality to a creator. It certainly says nothing about the movement of the earth that can't be seen by looking at the sky.

39:5 " He created the heavens and the earth with Truth, and He causes the night to flow into the day, and causes the day to flow into the night. He has subjugated the sun and the moon (for humans). All of them(heavens, the earth, the sun and the moon) are running until an appointed time. Lo, He is the Most Mighty, the Most Forgiving. "

All of them(heavens, the earth, the sun and the moon) are running until an appointed time

 

[outhouse]

39:5 " He created the heavens and the earth with Truth, and He causes the night to flow into the day, and causes the day to flow into the night. He has subjected the sun and the moon (for humans). All of them(heavens, the earth, the sun and the moon) are running until an appointed time. Lo, He is the Most Mighty, the Most Forgiving. "

All of them(heavens, the earth, the sun and the moon) are running until an appointed time

In a science thread this carries no credibility what so ever.

This is apologetic I nature and has no value.



If you want people to follow this, it would be better if you stayed in the same faith section, HERE requires more evidence then faith alone.

 

[mojtaba]

In a science thread this carries no credibility what so ever.
This is apologetic I nature and has no value.
If you want people to follow this, it would be better if you stayed in the same faith section, HERE requires more evidence then faith alone.

Does This need faith?
39:5 "All of them(heavens, the earth, the sun and the moon) are running".

 

[gnostic]

Does This need faith?
39:5 "All of them(heavens, the earth, the sun and the moon) are running".

It is not clear by what it mean by "running". It could mean anything, or not at all.

It doesn't specify distance. And apart from mentioning "day" and "night", it doesn't specify any other time.

Any low-IQ idiot of an author can say "day" and "night", and think it is relevant, but without give more specific details, it just some more un-enlightened and meaningless rhetoric.

Basically the whole verse is so loose and vague, that it is open to at least half-a-dozen interpretations.

The author(s) of the Qur'an is a first-rate nincompoop.

 

[morphesium]

In Qur'an, it is said that ...................................................................

Thanks for answering me. Actually I can't agree with much (any) of the things you say. God doesn't need the help of books or prophets to talk to us. If it is god who created you (us), that you are one of the gods glorious creations, then god has given his message (directly) to each and everyone of us and we were born with it - it is inherent to us. Our sense of morality, our subconscious feeling to be/do good is our true god sent message. No other religion can claim this- for they all came to us externally well after we were born. This is the best way for god to give us freewill without interfering with us; It is the best way god can talk to us without showing himself. This is the biggest proof that your (or my or any other ) religion is not god sent. For me, one is closer to god without religion than with religion.

I believe in science and i owe it a lot. It has given me medicines, improved our living standards, saved my loved ones life (a multitude of times), . MRI, CT scanners, Modern medical diagnostic instruments, telescopes, microprocessors, computers, internet..etc..... ..... .... Much more than these, It has given answers..., precise answers to many questions that religion could never answer.

In Qur'an, it is said that heavens are formed in two stages(2 spans of time) and the Earth is created in two stages(2 spans of time) and also, living organisms are created in tow stages(2 spans of time). 2+2+2 = 6 stages.

What do you mean by heavens here?...... Stars?.These are heavenly bodies, (super) massive structures but not heaven.

So, if heaven = Sun ,

Our sun is approximately 4.6 billion years old. our Sun has been in our present state (a main sequence star) for approximately 4.5 billion years. So the formation of the sun (from pre-solar system) took 100 - 150 million years. -> 2 spans of time.



Earth is created in two stages


It took 800 million years after the formation of earth for the earth to cool itself and for the appearance of first life so here, 800 million years -> 2 spans of time.

living organisms are created in two stages.


It took almost 3.6 billion years for life to evolve to the present stages.So here, 3.6 billion years = 2 spans of time.

So how much is a span of time? Now this has to be something that has to be equal to one another- for all the days have to be equal.

Also, it is said in Qur'an that the raw material of heavens was something like smoke and heavens are created from this smoke.In addition, the number of them is seven and they was singular as one heaven, then became seven. As well, all planets and stars that we see are in the first heaven. Two stages of heavens formation maybe when they were smoke and when they became condensed.

Also,two stages of the Earth creation maybe when it was very hot and molten and when the Earth’s crust became cool to become habitable.

As well, two stages of the creation of the living organisms maybe when there were just prokaryotes in the Earth and when the eukaryotes were created.

To value a piece of information, it has to be clear and precise. These lacks both.

 

[Union]

Thanks for answering me. Actually I can't agree with much (any) of the things you say. God doesn't need the help of books or prophets to talk to us. If it is god who created you (us), that you are one of the gods glorious creations, then god has given his message (directly) to each and everyone of us and we were born with it - it is inherent to us. Our sense of morality, our subconscious feeling to be/do good is our true god sent message. No other religion can claim this- for they all came to us externally well after we were born. This is the best way for god to give us freewill without interfering with us; It is the best way god can talk to us without showing himself. This is the biggest proof that your (or my or any other ) religion is not god sent. For me, one is closer to god without religion than with religion.

I believe in science and i owe it a lot. It has given me medicines, improved our living standards, saved my loved ones life (a multitude of times), . MRI, CT scanners, Modern medical diagnostic instruments, telescopes, microprocessors, computers, internet..etc..... ..... .... Much more than these, It has given answers..., precise answers to many questions that religion could never answer.



What do you mean by heavens here?...... Stars?.These are heavenly bodies, (super) massive structures but not heaven.

So, if heaven = Sun ,

Heaven ( Sam'a in Arabic ) never meant to be the sun . It means rather the universe with/without the earth , sky depends on the context . 'Shams' in Aarabic is the Sun .

 

[Union]

I found this article very interesting :

ch1.0

To place the construction of all matter into perspective, consider figure 1, which summarizes the run of density and temperature throughout all time for a Big-Bang Universe. It represents the consensus of contemporary scientific thought in the broadest sense. Six major epochs are delineated, each corresponding to a major period in the history of the Universe.....

 

[Union]

Thanks to Mojtaba to bring this very interesting subject of six epochs ( Sittati Ayamin) from Qur'an . The following observation is also very interesting from the Qur'an :

Total epochs of the creation of the whole universe :

6 Epochs ( Qur'an - 7:54,10:3,11:7,10:3,11:7 etc.)
13.7892 Billions years ( Science - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_universe )

Total epochs of the creation of the earth only :

2 Epochs ( Qur'an - 41:9)
4.54 Billions years (Science- Age of the Earth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Ratio :

Science : 13.7892/4.54 ~ 3
Qur'an : 6/2 ~3