The movement of the earth in Qur'an

[Union]

The quran says absolutely nothing about 6 epochs mate, nor does it suggest a ratio between the age of the universe and the age of the earth. You have rather imaginatively assumed that 6 DAYS, refers to six epochs. It doesn't.

Dear Bunyip , it was clarified already in the previous posts that 'Yawm' in Arabic does not only mean a 24 hours day period . It can be any period of time , rightly can be described as epochs or its synonyms . For your perusal I am posting these again :

Yawm = Infinite time [Quran 25: 69]
Yawm = 1,000 years [Quran 22.47]
Yawm=50,000 years [Quran 70.4]

And I have many Arabic lexicons in collection which all agree with what I said but the following one is suffice to draw your kind attention at the various meanings of Yawm ( If you don't know how to read Arabic , please see the last word of the page and its meanings :

 

[Union]

Let do math Quran style. 53+53= a number. Someone else can supply this number. When they do, this is the number I mean in fact.

Grab a verse and establish your case , please !

 

[Shad]

Grab a verse and establish your case , please !

Take a look at your own posts. Your own sources take the ambiguous nature of a word which you define to fit science. Hence the ambiguity comparison is the words you cited and my "a number". Neither provides a factual number but covers a range of numbers. So someone comes along, sciences, and tells you what that number is. In an ad hoc manner you retrofit this number on to the ambiguous one as if was the number of the whole time. So if some said my equation's answer is 106 I can use the same ad hoc fallacious thinking to claim that 106 was my answer the whole time. After all I am mysterious and so beyond people that I had to use ambiguous numbers for the sake of the uneducated here on this forum, cause math is hard...

Ad hoc Rescue
Fallacies | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

 

[FearGod]

Yea, it is called "night".

Ciao

- viole

Yes in the outer space there is no day and night but it's always night.

We use darkness in describing a room or a specific place ,,,,etc, so when we speak about day on earth then the surrounding in the outer space is night as comparable to day, in simple words, when the sky is light then it's day and when the sky is dark then it's night.

 

[Shad]

So you had admitted you are cherry picking the definition to suit your arguments. More ad hoc rationalization

 

[Shad]

Yes in the outer space there is no day and night but it's always night.

We use darkness in describing a room or a specific place ,,,,etc, so when we speak about day on earth then the surrounding in the outer space is night as comparable to day, in simple words, when the sky is light then it's day and when the sky is dark then it's night.

Negative.

Night | Define Night at Dictionary.com
Night - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

In space the Sun is always providing light directly unless blocked by an object. Thus in space there is always light. If light is equal to day it is always day time. Also you reference to the sky does not help at all. This is due to the fact that while one part of the Earth's sky is "light, another part is "dark". More so the north and south poles experience prolonged periods of "light" and "dark" for months at a time. You reference is completely dependent on the observer's location, move the observe and your reference fails. Hence why such a reference is fallacious since it is completely subjective

 

[Union]

Take a look at your own posts. Your own sources take the ambiguous nature of a word which you define to fit science. Hence the ambiguity comparison is the words you cited and my "a number". Neither provides a factual number but covers a range of numbers. So someone comes along, sciences, and tells you what that number is. In an ad hoc manner you retrofit this number on to the ambiguous one as if was the number of the whole time. So if some said my equation's answer is 106 I can use the same ad hoc fallacious thinking to claim that 106 was my answer the whole time. After all I am mysterious and so beyond people that I had to use ambiguous numbers for the sake of the uneducated here on this forum, cause math is hard...

Ad hoc Rescue
Fallacies | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

So you had admitted you are cherry picking the definition to suit your arguments. More ad hoc rationalization

It is not a cherry picking nor ambiguous as it has well established , clear and definitive meaning in Qur'an itself and in Arabic lexicons . We are not saying an apple is an orange , if you realized that , simply . Ironically sometime common sense is really uncommon .

 

[Union]

If a teacher gives the following equation :

2+X=4

and gives option to chose X=5 or 2 , what does that prove ??

 

[morphesium]

Ironic isn't. A religion from God needs scientific clarification in an ad hoc manner,

It is not a religion from God. Its humans who created Alla, just like any other gods. God doesn't need the help of religious texts to talk to us. If we are his glorious creations, then we are born with Gods message. Our innate feeling to do/ be the right is our God sent message. All other religions came to us externally.
If Allah is the creator of the universe, why didn't he just say it is 13.7 billion years old? It is what the most important.

why couldnt he give religious knowledge directly, just like our morale; something innate, so we would be born with it?
One is closer to God without religion than with religion. Its the religious people who are the true disbelievers, because they never follow their hearts/morale if their religion says otherwise.

 

[Bunyip]

Dear Bunyip , it was clarified already in the previous posts that 'Yawm' in Arabic does not only mean a 24 hours day period . It can be any period of time , rightly can be described as epochs or its synonyms . For your perusal I am posting these again :

Yawm = Infinite time [Quran 25: 69]
Yawm = 1,000 years [Quran 22.47]
Yawm=50,000 years [Quran 70.4]

And I have many Arabic lexicons in collection which all agree with what I said but the following one is suffice to draw your kind attention at the various meanings of Yawm ( If you don't know how to read Arabic , please see the last word of the page and its meanings :

Yes, mate. So all you have is the number 6 and an unspecified unit of time. It could be 6 days, 6 years - you just take the number 6, pick whatever unit of time you think fits best and say "Wow! How could they have known? Therefore God."

 

[Union]

Yes, mate. So all you have is the number 6 and an unspecified unit of time. It could be 6 days, 6 years - you just take the number 6, pick whatever unit of time you think fits best and say "Wow! How could they have known? Therefore God."

Honestly speaking this 6 epochs issue is just one of the things to ponder - I think Qur'an is the only religious book which discussed the creation of the universe from the beginning to the end , with very specific and technical notions . Briefly I may can give you some hints about it and would expect your open-mind attention in the matter :

01- The universe was merged into a single piece and then a force parted it apart [Qur'an-21.30]
02- Since that time it is expanding [Qur'an-51.47]
03- It took 6 epochs to create the universe [Qur'an-7.54]
04- It took 2 epochs to create the earth which has 04 sub-epochs spent to fashion the earth and 02 sub-epochs to fashion the atmosphere [Qur'an-41:9-12]
05- The sky close to the earth has 7 layers and act as shield for the earth [Qur'an-41:12,67:3]
06- The earth expanded [Qur'an-15.19]
07- The earth is also divided into 7 layers [Qur'an-65.12]
08- In future the universe will be destroyed and will be like a flat paper sheet [Qur'an-21.104]

So many other small but important observations related to the creation of the universe have been elaborated in the Qur'an but above lists just to show the major events and their correspondences with the modern science are as follows :

01- Big Bang
02-Expanding universe
03-06 major epochs to create the whole universe, starting from big bang till today - approx.13.5 Billion years .
04- 02 major epochs to create the earth , including 04 major epochs to fashion the earth and 02 major epochs to fashion the atmosphere of the earth - approx. 4.7 Billion years .
05- The earth's atmosphere has 7 layers which guards the earth from harms in many ways .
06- Continental drift .
07- The earth has 7 layers and has 7 continents .
08- The most interesting part : the future of the universe , look at the following link , discovered by NASA and mentioned in Qur'an :
https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/quran21-104-nasa-wmaps-universe-and-sheet-of-paper.173374/
Qur'an21:104 ,NASA/WMAP's universe and sheet of paper | ReligiousForums.com

Can all these be coincident , manipulation , misinterpretation , vague, unrelated.... ??

All I can say is , please read the Qur'an honestly and with open mind and not with a negative attitude .

 

[Bunyip]

Honestly speaking this 6 epochs issue is just one of the things to ponder - I think Qur'an is the only religious book which discussed the creation of the universe from the beginning to the end , with very specific and technical notions . Briefly I may can give you some hints about it and would expect your open-mind attention in the matter :

01- The universe was merged into a single piece and then a force parted it apart [Qur'an-21.30]
02- Since that time it is expanding [Qur'an-51.47]
03- It took 6 epochs to create the universe [Qur'an-7.54]
04- It took 2 epochs to create the earth which has 04 sub-epochs spent to fashion the earth and 02 sub-epochs to fashion the atmosphere [Qur'an-41:9-12]
05- The sky close to the earth has 7 layers and act as shield for the earth [Qur'an-41:12,67:3]
06- The earth expanded [Qur'an-15.19]
07- The earth is also divided into 7 layers [Qur'an-65.12]
08- In future the universe will be destroyed and will be like a flat paper sheet [Qur'an-21.104]

So many other small but important observations related to the creation of the universe have been elaborated in the Qur'an but above lists just to show the major events and their correspondences with the modern science are as follows :

01- Big Bang
02-Expanding universe
03-06 major epochs to create the whole universe, starting from big bang till today - approx.13.5 Billion years .
04- 02 major epochs to create the earth , including 04 major epochs to fashion the earth and 02 major epochs to fashion the atmosphere of the earth - approx. 4.7 Billion years .
05- The earth's atmosphere has 7 layers which guards the earth from harms in many ways .
06- Continental drift .
07- The earth has 7 layers and has 7 continents .
08- The most interesting part : the future of the universe , look at the following link , discovered by NASA and mentioned in Qur'an :
Qur'an21:104 ,NASA/WMAP's universe and sheet of paper | ReligiousForums.com

Can all these be coincident , manipulation , misinterpretation , vague, unrelated.... ??

Yes, they are all vaguely coincidental with later scientific claims.

All I can say is , please read the Qur'an honestly and with open mind and not with a negative attitude .

I have read it, the only difference between you and I is that my mind is not so open that it has fallen out.

 

[Augustus]

It is not too difficult to find 'scientific miracles' in vague, poetic texts. I looked at 'paradise lost' and found one within 9 sentences:

In the beginning how the heavens and earth
Rose out of chaos:

This obviously refers to the big bang, the beginning, when an immense explosion, chaos, was the source for both the heavens, space, stars and planets, and the Earth. I hail the miracle of John Milton.

To quote mine a text and find coincidences is really not very difficult to do.


If anyone fancies a laugh, this site is hilarious, Miracles of the Qur'an - Modern Science Reveals New Miracles of the Qur'an

"We gave Dawud great favor from Us: 'O mountains and birds! echo with him in his praise!' And We made iron malleable for him: (Surah Saba', 10)

We gave Sulayman understanding of it. We gave each of them judgment and knowledge. We subjected the mountains to Dawud, glorifying, and the birds as well. This is something We are well able to do. (Surat al-Anbiya', 79)

So We subjected the wind to him to blow at his command, softly, wherever he directed. (Surah Sâd, 36)"

As you can obviously tell, the above verses are a miraculous foreshadowing of modern radar technology

“You will see the mountains you reckoned to be solid going past like clouds – the handwork of Allah Who gives to everything its solidity. He is aware of what you do.” (Surat an-Naml, 88)

The above verse may be a reference to the strength of the atom, the building block of all matter, and to the orbit of the electrons in the atom. Looked at in the context of atoms, Allah’s use of the term “to everything its solidity” can be interpreted as referring to the solidity of the atom, which cannot be broken even if struck with a sledgehammer (Allah knows the truth). That is because objects themselves are not perfectly solid, only the atom is.

Uncanny, isn't it...

 

[Bunyip]

It is not too difficult to find 'scientific miracles' in vague, poetic texts. I looked at 'paradise lost' and found one within 9 sentences:

In the beginning how the heavens and earth
Rose out of chaos:

This obviously refers to the big bang, the beginning, when an immense explosion, chaos, was the source for both the heavens, space, stars and planets, and the Earth. I hail the miracle of John Milton.

To quote mine a text and find coincidences is really not very difficult to do.


If anyone fancies a laugh, this site is hilarious, Miracles of the Qur'an - Modern Science Reveals New Miracles of the Qur'an

"We gave Dawud great favor from Us: 'O mountains and birds! echo with him in his praise!' And We made iron malleable for him: (Surah Saba', 10)

We gave Sulayman understanding of it. We gave each of them judgment and knowledge. We subjected the mountains to Dawud, glorifying, and the birds as well. This is something We are well able to do. (Surat al-Anbiya', 79)

So We subjected the wind to him to blow at his command, softly, wherever he directed. (Surah Sâd, 36)"

As you can obviously tell, the above verses are a miraculous foreshadowing of modern radar technology

“You will see the mountains you reckoned to be solid going past like clouds – the handwork of Allah Who gives to everything its solidity. He is aware of what you do.” (Surat an-Naml, 88)

The above verse may be a reference to the strength of the atom, the building block of all matter, and to the orbit of the electrons in the atom. Looked at in the context of atoms, Allah’s use of the term “to everything its solidity” can be interpreted as referring to the solidity of the atom, which cannot be broken even if struck with a sledgehammer (Allah knows the truth). That is because objects themselves are not perfectly solid, only the atom is.

Uncanny, isn't it...

Clever post.

 

[FearGod]

It is not too difficult to find 'scientific miracles' in vague, poetic texts. I looked at 'paradise lost' and found one within 9 sentences:

In the beginning how the heavens and earth
Rose out of chaos:

This obviously refers to the big bang, the beginning, when an immense explosion, chaos, was the source for both the heavens, space, stars and planets, and the Earth. I hail the miracle of John Milton.

To quote mine a text and find coincidences is really not very difficult to do.


If anyone fancies a laugh, this site is hilarious, Miracles of the Qur'an - Modern Science Reveals New Miracles of the Qur'an

"We gave Dawud great favor from Us: 'O mountains and birds! echo with him in his praise!' And We made iron malleable for him: (Surah Saba', 10)

We gave Sulayman understanding of it. We gave each of them judgment and knowledge. We subjected the mountains to Dawud, glorifying, and the birds as well. This is something We are well able to do. (Surat al-Anbiya', 79)

So We subjected the wind to him to blow at his command, softly, wherever he directed. (Surah Sâd, 36)"

As you can obviously tell, the above verses are a miraculous foreshadowing of modern radar technology

“You will see the mountains you reckoned to be solid going past like clouds – the handwork of Allah Who gives to everything its solidity. He is aware of what you do.” (Surat an-Naml, 88)

The above verse may be a reference to the strength of the atom, the building block of all matter, and to the orbit of the electrons in the atom. Looked at in the context of atoms, Allah’s use of the term “to everything its solidity” can be interpreted as referring to the solidity of the atom, which cannot be broken even if struck with a sledgehammer (Allah knows the truth). That is because objects themselves are not perfectly solid, only the atom is.

Uncanny, isn't it...

That was a silly one.

It is stupid to think that each verse should point to some facts about astronomy, geology ...etc, but there are some verses pointing with clear words to such facts.

For your example (Surah Saba', 10) & (Surat al-Anbiya', 79) it is pointing to the Iron age and it means that Dawud got the knowledge of extracting the iron from the mountains before about 3000 years

Can you think of the big bang as a natural thing ? Do you know what is gravity and where does it come from?

For verse (Surah Sâd, 36), it is about the knowledge of Subjugating the winds for our benefit and that was also before about 3000 years and which was given to Solomon.

For verse (Surat an-Naml, 88), that is actually how the universe was created, do you believe that what you see as solid was a smoke before billions of years, you believe it if one scientist says it but if God then it is a vague.

If one verse is hard on your mind then that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

 

[gnostic]

It's only vague for the disbelievers and not for the Muslims.

The darkness enveloping the day's light can be seen easily from the outer space and that was impossible to be known in the 7th century.

And I am telling you that the way verse is worded, only highlight the fact that the author have no idea what they are talking about.

It may be poetic in original Arabic, and it may be what you believe in, but it has nothing to do with science. It doesn't explain anything and the description as given, is faulty and too vague, to even be useful.

But any idiot in that century, and all the centuries non-Muslims have described night as cover, cloak, and so on, but all of them are as inaccurate as the silly verse that Muslims continuously quote, but don't understand the context of their own scripture.

 

[Augustus]

That was a silly one.

It is stupid to think that each verse should point to some facts about astronomy, geology ...etc, but there are some verses pointing with clear words to such facts.

For your example (Surah Saba', 10) & (Surat al-Anbiya', 79) it is pointing to the Iron age and it means that Dawud got the knowledge of extracting the iron from the mountains before about 3000 years

Can you think of the big bang as a natural thing ? Do you know what is gravity and where does it come from?

For verse (Surah Sâd, 36), it is about the knowledge of Subjugating the winds for our benefit and that was also before about 3000 years and which was given to Solomon.

For verse (Surat an-Naml, 88), that is actually how the universe was created, do you believe that what you see as solid was a smoke before billions of years, you believe it if one scientist says it but if God then it is a vague.

If one verse is hard on your mind then that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

The site claimed they demonstrated foreknowledge of advanced radar systems though which is comical. I have no problem with them as religious teachings. I just think that the attempts to claim them as scientific miracles is so silly it's funny.

The Quran isn't a scientific text and it is not supposed to be, this is no criticism of the Quran. Having no scientific miracles does not change the message of the Quran or say anything negative about Islam. Religious texts are about moral and lifestyle guidance, that is their purpose.

If believers wish to see 'signs' in the text, then that is up to them, a few of them make reasonable sense, but as I showed, you can find similar things in other texts that make reasonable sense also. It took me literally 30 seconds to find my example. Imagine what could be found with thousands of people searching over many years.

The thing that annoys me though is when believers try to claim that anyone who doubts these 'scientific miracles' is somehow being dishonest or closed minded. The scientific miracles hypothesis was a creation of the 1980s, and some Muslim apologists have even stopped trying to claim it as it has actually been responsible for people leaving Islam when they found the claims were overstated if not actually inaccurate. See Does the Qur’an Contain Scientific Miracles? A New Approach on how to Reconcile and Discuss Science in the Qur’an | Hamza Andreas Tzortzis

Don't confuse criticism of the hypothesis for criticism of Islam or the Quran though, the 2 things are completely unrelated.

 

[FearGod]

And I am telling you that the way verse is worded, only highlight the fact that the author have no idea what they are talking about.

It may be poetic in original Arabic, and it may be what you believe in, but it has nothing to do with science. It doesn't explain anything and the description as given, is faulty and too vague, to even be useful.

But any idiot in that century, and all the centuries non-Muslims have described night as cover, cloak, and so on, but all of them are as inaccurate as the silly verse that Muslims continuously quote, but don't understand the context of their own scripture.

You're entitled to your own opinion.

 

[gnostic]

Yawm = 1,000 years [Quran 22.47]

Which is exactly the same illogical piece of crap you get from 2 Peter 3:8:

8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day.

You and your Christian brothers should compare notes, because nothing in Qur'an 22:47. What it tell me Muslims read thing too literally, and that both Christian and Islamic author don't know maths or can tell time.

Yawm=50,000 years [Quran 70.4]

And more meaningless crap.

What does these verses have to do with 7:54, which had you quoted?

And where does those the billions (13.7 billion) of years come from?

You don't have answer either of them because they both rhetorical questions, because I already know that your answer come from, the so-called imaginary "ratio".

For you to have ratio, your need 2 numbers, and high school student would know that. With verse 7:54, you only get "6 days", and no other numbers, so you can't get ratio out of 7:54. It is sort of interpretation that make Muslims a laughingstock in the these science and religion forum.

You really should go back to school, and relearn basic maths, especially on ratio.

Ratio!

 

[gnostic]

You're entitled to your own opinion.

I have read enough myths, especially creation myths, to know when that your Qur'an is following the same track as these other religions, with no idea what they are talking about, when they are trying to talk about astronomy, earth science, biology, etc.

The author of the Qur'an, be he Muhammad or Allah, is about uneducated as those other religion authors and myth-makers, when it come to science or maths. They are utterly clueless.

I have read enough scriptures and myths to know that Muslims such as yourself, are so desperate to get converts, even if meant lying their faces off, to prove something what the Qur'an really don't say.

I have no doubt in my mind that you, Union and other Muslims who had posted in their thread, would go out of their way to twist passages in Qur'an.

I supposed that honesty not so great virtue in Islam, because I haven't seen honest Muslims here.