The OT today

[CMike]

i would be happy to quote it,


Genesis 3:14 Then Jehovah God said to the serpent:+ “Because you have done this, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild animals of the field. On your belly you will go, and you will eat dust all the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity*+ between you+ and the woman+ and between your offspring*+ and her offspring.*+ He will crush* your head,+ and you will strike* him in the heel.”

God speaks to the serpent here.... he says that there will be emnity or conflict between his seed and the womans seed.... but eventually the womans seed would crush his head. The seed here is spoken of as being an 'individual'... it says 'he' will crush your head. So the messiah would be the one to bring salvation to mankind.

The book of Revelation tells us that this 'serpent' is the devil satan:
Revelation 20:2
2 He seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years.
Revelation 20:10
10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

That may be revelation but it's not the Torah.

Christian writings are not part of the Torah.

Remember, I said passages from the Torah not the christian bible.

The one who seized the dragon is Jesus christ...the Messiah who was promised to be the 'seed' who would crush the serpents head.

Where in the Torah is the messiah called the "seed"?

i thinnk Judaism has changed a lot since the first century and earlier. and there have always been different schools of thought within Judaism. Some jews considered these to be messianic prophecies, others did not. Jesus 1st century followers did view them as messianic because they used them in their writings to prove that Jesus is the promised messiah.

They didn't prove that he was the jewish messiah because there is no proof.

The messianic prophesies are in Michah 4:3 and Ezekiel 37

They are:

World Peace
One unified king of Israel
All the jews will go to Israel
All the jews will stay in Israel
All nations will worship one G-D
The temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever

How many of these prophesies were fulfilled? None.




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he writers of the Christian scriptures are jews. Jesus was a jew and he taught from the Hebrew scriptures.....thats why.

When he started declaring himself a divine being and tried to sell the idea that he had divine power is where he went very wrong.

The messiah was always called the 'seed'...

Like where? The seed usually means the descedent of.

That's another one that jesus didn't fulfill. The jewish messiah will be a descedent of David. Tribal lineage in judaism ALWAYS goes by the father.

he is not named in the hebrew scriptures. The hebrew scriptures regarding the messiah are like a roadmap leading to the Messiah. When the Messiah appeared, he would be identified by those hebrew scriptures.

Yup, and the messiah hasn't appeared...yet.

The Christian God is the same God as the Jewish God. The True God of the bible is Jehovah/Yahweh. It was he whom the Christians worshiped, no one else.

If you are worshipping jesus in any way you are worshipping a different and foreign god.

 

[Shermana]

That's another one that jesus didn't fulfill. The jewish messiah will be a descedent of David. Tribal lineage in judaism ALWAYS goes by the father.

There's good reason to believe the Virgin Birth was an interpolated account. Cerinthus, an early Jewish Christian, certainly didn't believe in it (along with other early Jewish Christians), it wasn't important enough for Mark and John, certain books like Acts of Pilate/Gospel of Nicodemus clearly say Joseph was the Father, and Matthew's geneology seems to have a 300 year gap between Salmon and Boaz. It was a somewhat hot topic of scholarship in the early 20th century but got swept under the rug during the revival period. I'd like to rekindle it one day.

Was the Virgin Birth Doctrine Part of the Original Gospels?

Carry on.

 

[CMike]

:

I thought so I read from verse1 for the context.

:clap:clap:clap

Major kudos for thinking for yourself, and actually taking the trouble to read a verse in context.

That is very very rare here.

 

[Pegg]

That may be revelation but it's not the Torah.
Christian writings are not part of the Torah.

Remember, I said passages from the Torah not the christian bible.

Genesis is not part of the Torah?

Where in the Torah is the messiah called the "seed"?

In the very first prophecy spoken to the serpernt in the garden of Eden:
“I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”—Gen. 3:15

In Micah, he is called 'the one' indicating that the seed or offspring will be an 'individual' who was from 'early times'
Mic 5:2*“And you, O Beth′le·hem Eph′ra·thah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.

this messianic prophecy indicates that this individual has lived since 'times indefinite'
What does that mean to you? How could he have lived from 'early times'?

They didn't prove that he was the jewish messiah because there is no proof.

The messianic prophesies are in Michah 4:3 and Ezekiel 37

They are:

World Peace
One unified king of Israel
All the jews will go to Israel
All the jews will stay in Israel
All nations will worship one G-D
The temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever

How many of these prophesies were fulfilled? None.

these prophecies may relate to the time when he is actually ruling over all the earth. Jesus isnt ruling over all the earth until he removes all earthly kingdoms/governments.
In our view these are still future.

The prophecies you need to consider are the ones that tell you what he will do after he is born.
the ones he fulfilled before his death are many...all of Isaiah chapter 53 for example is fulfilled in Jesus.

When he started declaring himself a divine being and tried to sell the idea that he had divine power is where he went very wrong.

well he never actually declared himself to be God. A divine being, yes sure. the prophecy of micah indicates that he had lived to 'times indefinite'....who but a divine being could live to times indefinite? Jesus said of himself that he had come down from heaven to do Gods will. He never claimed to be God. In fact he said: “The Father is greater than I am.” John 14:28

It was many centuries later that christians began to proclaim that Jesus was God....but you wont find that in any of the Christian scriptures because its not a teaching from Jesus or his early followers.

Like where? The seed usually means the descedent of.

That's another one that jesus didn't fulfill. The jewish messiah will be a descedent of David. Tribal lineage in judaism ALWAYS goes by the father.

Jesus was a descendent of David through his mother Mary AND his adoptive father Joseph.

 

[Pegg]

Pegg seems to still refuse to accept that the word "Seed" is used in the singular even though its usually used in the sense of a plural. Just like English. No amount of examples of the contrary will change her mind apparently.

i thought i was the one who said 'seed' is singular...you said its plural

The 'seed' in genesis with reference to Abrahams descendent IS singular because the promise to Abraham that all the families of the earth would bless themselves by his “seed” could not have included all of Abraham’s offspring...we know this because it certainly didnt include Ishmael nor any of his sons by Keturah. It was later said that it would be through 'Isaac' alone. Therefore 'Seed' in this instance is singular, not plural.

Nice try, it says "The old/ancient Serpent". Is that your NWT translation?

From the Pistis Sophia, this "Ancient Serpent" of whom the author of Revelation may have had common descendency of ideas, was a gigantic, gargantuan, unspeakably large dragon in the heavens whose body acts as the prison and hellish containment of souls.

It most certainly does not say "original" Serpent.

You are kidding right? You really believe there's a literal big firery serpent flying around in the skies?

now i've heard everything

 

[Shermana]

i thought i was the one who said 'seed' is singular...you said its plural

Sigh.

"Seed" is, gramattically, used in the Singular, to DEFINE the plural. I'm guessing you totally ignored all the examples I presented to you on the matter? Do I have to do it again?

we know this because it certainly didnt include Ishmael nor any of his sons by Keturah. It was later said that it would be through 'Isaac' alone.

According to your logic, it would only imply the direct sons of Isaac alone. No more after Joseph, right? Obviously, the word "Seed" does not necessarily mean "All" even if its used for "many".

You are kidding right? You really believe there's a literal big firery serpent flying around in the skies?

Yes. Far, far away. I also believe there are archon-demons with the faces of dogs, lions, lizards, etc.

 

[Pegg]

Sigh.

"Seed" is, gramattically, used in the Singular, to DEFINE the plural. I'm guessing you totally ignored all the examples I presented to you on the matter? Do I have to do it again?

but exactly in the same way, 'seed' is also used to define the singular in scripture as is the case with the fact that the promised seed would come to be through 'Isaac' and not any other of Abrahams sons.

He had several sons, not just one. So Seed is also used in the singular.

Yes. Far, far away. I also believe there are archon-demons with the faces of dogs, lions, lizards, etc.

I dont think we should be taking everything literally in scripture...if those things are really literal, why dont we all see them flying around?

 

[Shermana]

but exactly in the same way, 'seed' is also used to define the singular in scripture as is the case with the fact that the promised seed would come to be through 'Isaac' and not any other of Abrahams sons.

He had several sons, not just one. So Seed is also used in the singular.

In the plural-singular sense, not necessarily as "All". Again, in your logic, it would only be through Isaac's son Joseph. It it implies the sons of Joseph as well, you've just stated that it's a plural-singular. It just doesn't simply mean "Entirety". It's the concept of "Many", not "All". A specific plural.

Even with that said, you have no way of proving that the "Seed" in Genesis 3:15 is only a single in the first place.

I dont think we should be taking everything literally in scripture...if those things are really literal, why dont we all see them flying around?

You don't think Ezekiel actually saw Flying Wheels in wheels with eyes and angels? You don't think John actually met real angels with bull and eagle faces? You think those were hallucinations? Just "Visions" like a dream?

Where are all the Angels? How come we don't see them flying around?

I said they are "Far, far away".

 

[CMike]

Genesis is not part of the Torah?

It is. Revelation isn't, nor is it's creative interpretation.

In the very first prophecy spoken to the serpernt in the garden of Eden:
“I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”—Gen. 3:15

And where does it say anything about the messiah?

It's talking about the future interaction between women and snakes.

In Micah, he is called 'the one' indicating that the seed or offspring will be an 'individual' who was from 'early times'
Mic 5:2*“And you, O Beth′le·hem Eph′ra·thah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.

this messianic prophecy indicates that this individual has lived since 'times indefinite'
What does that mean to you? How could he have lived from 'early times'?

You need to start with the right translation.

Michah - Chapter 5 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

1. And you, Bethlehem Ephrathah-you should have been the lowest of the clans of Judah-from you [he] shall emerge for Me, to be a ruler over Israel; and his origin is from of old, from days of yore

The messiah's origin is from King David.

these prophecies may relate to the time when he is actually ruling over all the earth. Jesus isnt ruling over all the earth until he removes all earthly kingdoms/governments.
In our view these are still future.

That's not what it says is it? That's no where in the Torah.

That's the christian attempt to make the Torah fit into their theology. It doesn't.

The prophecies you need to consider are the ones that tell you what he will do after he is born.
the ones he fulfilled before his death are many...all of Isaiah chapter 53 for example is fulfilled in Jesus.

The point of the prophesies is for the jews to know who the messiah is. Once he fulfills them the jews will know who the messiah is. They haven't been fulfilled yet.

And in Isaiah 53 the suffering servant is Israel. Israel has been called the suffering servant other places in Isaiah. Also if you look at the chapter right and before 53 it's clearly talking about Israel.

Isaiah actually has no chapters in it's original writing. It's one long prophesy.

It's another case of twisting to make it fit into a theology that is mutually exclusive.

well he never actually declared himself to be God. A divine being, yes sure. the prophecy of micah indicates that he had lived to 'times indefinite'....who but a divine being could live to times indefinite? Jesus said of himself that he had come down from heaven to do Gods will. He never claimed to be God. In fact he said: “The Father is greater than I am.” John 14:28

Michah didn't say that.

However G-D did say the following...

Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-D, the L-ord is ONE (Deut)

I am the Lord, and there is no other; apart from Me there is no God. ...so that from the rising of the Sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:5-6)

...I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. (Isaiah, 46:9)

... so that all the peoples of the Earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other. (1 Kings, 8:60)

Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

This is what the Lord says…"Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other God." (Isaiah, 45:14)

...The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Deuteronomy, 6:4)

You are my witness--the words of Hashem--and My servant, whom I have chosen, so that you will know and believe in Me, and understand that I am He; before me nothing was created by a G-D, and after Me it shall not be (Isaiah 43:10)

... O Lord; no deeds can compare with Yours. All the nations You have made will come and worship before You, O Lord; they will bring glory to Your name. For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:8-10)

O Lord ...You alone are God over all the kingdoms of the Earth. You have made heaven and Earth. (Isaiah, 37:16)

It was many centuries later that christians began to proclaim that Jesus was God....but you wont find that in any of the Christian scriptures because its not a teaching from Jesus or his early followers.

You did see all the passages where G-D said there is only him, and to trust only him, right?

Jesus was a descendent of David through his mother Mary AND his adoptive father Joseph.

There is no such thing.

Tribal lineage goes solely through the biological father.

If the biological father is unknown then the person is considered part of the general population.

 

[dantech]

CMike, I have 400+ posts in the "For The Christians" thread that prove that this argument cannot be settled. I would save my time if i were you.

 

[psychoslice]

The thing is the Christians hijacked the books that belong to the Jews, imagine if someone cam along and took the old testament and manipulated it to suite their own new belief system which goes completely against the Christian belief, leave the old testament to those who know best, the Jews.

 

[Shermana]

The thing is the Christians hijacked the books that belong to the Jews, imagine if someone cam along and took the old testament and manipulated it to suite their own new belief system which goes completely against the Christian belief, leave the old testament to those who know best, the Jews.

This is what infuriates me most about antinomians. They come along and twist the heck out of the Tanakh. It's not bad enough that they twist what Jesus says in the Gospels.

However, when it comes to how to interpret the Messianic prophecies, that's an entirely different story. Not even the Rabbis are agreed on what it means exactly, or which verses are even intended as such.

 

[Shermana]

CMike, I have 400+ posts in the "For The Christians" thread that prove that this argument cannot be settled. I would save my time if i were you.

The argument can be settled, the problem is that the antinomian Christians refuse to accept it.

 

[F0uad]

Some of them, there are Muslims, Jews and Christians who follow certain laws in the OT and there are Muslims, Jews and Christians who don't.

 

[F0uad]

This is what infuriates me most about antinomians. They come along and twist the heck out of the Tanakh. It's not bad enough that they twist what Jesus says in the Gospels.

However, when it comes to how to interpret the Messianic prophecies, that's an entirely different story. Not even the Rabbis are agreed on what it means exactly, or which verses are even intended as such.

Shermana i was wondering if you have a good source were the preservation of the first 5 books are explained?

 

[psychoslice]

some of them, there are muslims, jews and christians who follow certain laws in the ot and there are muslims, jews and christians who don't.

and most don't have a clue what they believe in .

 

[Akivah]

And then there are people like FOuad that allege the Tanakh has changed, but present no evidence of it. Nor how their holy book is better.

 

[Shermana]

Shermana i was wondering if you have a good source were the preservation of the first 5 books are explained?

I'm not the best person to ask, I believe even the Torah has seen interpolations and edits, such as with Deuteronomy 32:8 and Genesis 38.

 

[Benoni]

It is not so much the law of the OT taht is so point is it the spiritual type that conceal Christ written from Genesis to the Book of Revelation. The OT conceals Christ. The NT reveals Christ.

 

[CMike]

The thing is the Christians hijacked the books that belong to the Jews, imagine if someone cam along and took the old testament and manipulated it to suite their own new belief system which goes completely against the Christian belief, leave the old testament to those who know best, the Jews.

Another comparison is if the muslims decided that the christian bible is really about Mohammed and twist it so it fits their beliefs.