You sure do like labels so you can but some one in some religious man made box. Sounds pretty limited.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
The OT today
- Thread starter Tiberius
- Start date
Shermana
Heretic
What I like is the truth. Errors, fabrications, and untenable beliefs are easily compartmentalized and put into "man made" boxes where they belong. What's pretty limited is your ability to defend your view.
And you defended yours?????? All you gave me was opinion. So who is Jesus to you????
Shermana
Heretic
I have made perhaps 20% or more of my total post count on various threads about the Trinity, many in great detail with many links, including quotes from Trinitarian scholars themselves. I asked you if you wanted references. This is not the thread to do so in detail. However, I posted a very detailed and informative link on the Timothy 3:16 issue which you totally ignored, and pointed out that the "he" is referencing to Jesus, and that the text doesn't indicate it's referencing God. All you've done is brushed it all aside and stated what your belief is.
Jesus is the incarnation of the First Created Soul, the manifestation of Wisdom itself, personified.
I disagreed with you about Timothy 3:16 and I was very clear to show you why, at the same time you NEVER addressed my post the fact that nowhere in the Bible is there any reference to God being three persons. Lets not have a double standard if truth is what we are seeking.
Who Jesus is:
Three times in the Bible it declares Jesus is the Alpha and Omega which in the Greek simply means the beginning and the end And I will add all the Greek letters in between. If Jesus is the beginning and the end how can he be the incarnation of the First Created Soul??????
Point 2: Mighty God, Everlasting Father
Notice what Isaiah declares about who Jesus is: Mighty God, Everlasting Father
Isaiah6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Third point: Nowhere in the Bible is there any reference that Jesus is/was a soul man/a soulish man
Carnal man is soulish/human flesh/carnal nature for when God set man up for the fall God formed him from the dust of the earth and made him a living soul but this mode does not fit Jesus who is the Alpha and Omega as well as Mighty God, Everlasting Father.
Yes Jesus was human flesh for 33 years. But never a soulish man He was a spiritual man and had a direct spiritual commuication with the Father. He was never in a fallen soulish state.
Notice I used scripture to prove my point. You give us this off the wall view based on your religious opinion that Jesus is the incarnation of the First Created Soul, the manifestation of Wisdom itself, personified. Scripture please??
dantech
Well-Known Member
My name is Dan, am I automatically a judge?
My cousins name is Batel. Is she God's daughter? My father's name is Yitzhak. Does it mean he's always laughing? I know a person whose name is Adonai...
The Isaiah prophecy gives names to a person who you suggest will be Jesus. Even if you are right, they are only names. They carry importance, but their meaning is not automatically translated into a role the person will have. If this is all you base the trinity on, then you need to find more scripture to protect your claim, in my opinion.
I am not a Trinitarian but believe in one God. His name is Jesus; in Bible times names were chosen with great care and were frequently given by prophetic utterance or under divine inspiration so that the names actually revealed the nature, character, attributes, and destiny of the person, and thus carried a message to all who spoke or used that name.
Shermana
Heretic
Why do I have to address your point that nowhere in Bible is the Trinity mentioned? I don't believe in the Trinity either. I agree with you on that one. As far as 1 Timothy 3:16 is concerned, you did not justify your position at all, nor did you disprove mine, or the link I showed you.
Now as for Revelation, as I've shown on many threads, Jesus does NOT say he is the Alpha and the Omega. That is the Father speaking. The time in Revelation 1:11 is an INTERPOLATION that you will notice only exists in the KJV and a few others that copy it. It simply wasn't in the original. In 1:8, it's the Father speaking directly. In 22:13, it is an Angel bearing a message from the Father. As for Isaiah 9:6, it should be read as "A mighty god" or as Justin Martyr translated it as, "Angel of Great council". The word "El" does not always mean "THE God", especially when it's not articulated in that case. I will be happy to go over each of these in detail with links and sources if you'd like, but somehow I doubt that's what you'd like.
However, Proverbs 8 specifically says that "Wisdom" (The Logos) was in fact an incarnated being, not just a metaphor for Wisdom, but an actual entity endowed, personified, with the characteristics of God's Wisdom, as the Firstborn created soul. There are many links and articles on this. It is not off-the-wall, it is a standard Theology and was most likely Standard Theology for the earliest Church. It's only off-the-wall to the mainstream establishement that goes out of its way to suppress scholarly information from the masses.
Now again, if you'd like me to tear down each and every Trinity "proof-text" in detail and in style, like I've done multiple times, I suggest you start a new thread that's on topic, or I can refer you to the many threads that I have done so on.
Last edited:
HOGWASH.... The WHOLE Book of Revelation is the revelation of Jesus Chrsit not the Revelation of the Father. This whole book is about Jesus who is the alpha and Omega. No where is the Father mentioned as subject of this book. All of the verses about Jesus being the alpha and omega are in the Book of Revelation.
On the contrary here is the first verse: Look at what the Bible says not what your religion tells you what it says,
Revelations 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass (not 2000 years); and he sent and signified signs and symbols it by his angel (messenger) unto his servant John:
Shermana
Heretic
What's hogwash is your reply. You obviously didn't understand what I said. Jesus is not the one called the Alpha and Omega. It's about both Jesus AND the Father, who are two separate beings. The Father is mentioned several times. Jesus and "God" are two different entities referenced in the book. Have you even read it all the way through? The book is about him as WELL as Jesus, more specifically, it's about the REVELATION which Jesus received from the Father. How can Jesus receive Revelation from the Father if they are the same exact being? Is he a skitzofrenic? Does he have multiple personality disorder? Try again. Though I'm not holding my breath in expectation that you'll get it this time.
Read the first verse. Notice it is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Not the revelation of the Father and Jesus Christ. Chapter and verse. Bias religious opinions not accepted.
Shermana
Heretic
You're one to talk about biased religious opinions.
I was right to not expect you to understand what I said or even address what I said in detail. I don't even think you remember what you're talking about.
More HOGWASH... This is not bias religious opinion it is what the Bible says. Look I quoted God's Word and yes I am bias to its wording for I do not believe in most religious understanding. I do not change the bible because it does not fit my dogma. (add words) Do you?????? I agree there are times where we need to look at bad translations but there is no bad translation here the Father is never mentioned.
Shermana
Heretic
Sigh.
Are you even understanding what I said? Perhaps English is not your first language, as it looks like, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Try going over the previous reply before the last one line by line.
Sigh.
No God is not two different beings.
God is one and is a spirit.
Not two.
Jesus and the Father but one, that is why The Book of Revelation mention both; but the Book of Revelation is about Jesus not two beings. Nowhere does it say the Father and Jesus are two different beings. You might as well be a Trinitarian instead of adding the word person you are adding the word two beings.
Very unscriptural.
You’re speaking of the spiritual realm here not the world as we know it,
Just because Jesus came in an earthy human form did not mean that all of God left high and exalted state and, what the Bible declares is God was manifested in the flesh. God has the power and ability to do whatever He wants to, whenever He wants to; especially when it was His purpose to accomplish to defeat death and sin.
You cannot make up words to change God's Word so it fits your dogma. God is one not two beings.
No God is not two different beings.
God is one and is a spirit.
Not two.
Jesus and the Father but one, that is why The Book of Revelation mention both; but the Book of Revelation is about Jesus not two beings. Nowhere does it say the Father and Jesus are two different beings. You might as well be a Trinitarian instead of adding the word person you are adding the word two beings.
Very unscriptural.
You’re speaking of the spiritual realm here not the world as we know it,
Just because Jesus came in an earthy human form did not mean that all of God left high and exalted state and, what the Bible declares is God was manifested in the flesh. God has the power and ability to do whatever He wants to, whenever He wants to; especially when it was His purpose to accomplish to defeat death and sin.
You cannot make up words to change God's Word so it fits your dogma. God is one not two beings.
you are the one not rational when it come to who Jesus is spiritual speaking. You did say " It's about both Jesus AND the Father, who are two separate beings."
If Jesus is not God then there is no point of the Bible Jesus is a nobody according you.
Satan is the god of the earth but Jesus is a nobody it that what you believe?????
Shermana
Heretic
Sigh.
There is really no point in debating with you, or even trying to talk to you.
Do you even know what "god" means in the Hebrew? Do you even know that Angels are called "gods"?
So unless Jesus is THE god he is a "nobody". If I say he is the firstborn created soul, the second in command of the Heavens, the incarnation of God's wisdom itself, he's a "nobody".
Ladies and gentlemen, if you wonder why I get so hostile and frustrated when dealing with all these Christians, this is a prime example right here.
Last edited:
[/QUOTE]
Then leave.
Yes the word is elohim which is the first name for God in the Book of Genesis and is used all though out the Bible not just angels PS 82 speaks of men not angels. Its also speaking about God.
This is all myth and hogwash not based on Gods Word but base on your religion.
Jesus is not a soul. He was not created from the dust of the earth.
Satan is a god according to the Bible? True?
But Jesus is not even a minor god ?????
You dare not answer this because you are wrong.
Then leave.
Yes the word is elohim which is the first name for God in the Book of Genesis and is used all though out the Bible not just angels PS 82 speaks of men not angels. Its also speaking about God.
This is all myth and hogwash not based on Gods Word but base on your religion.
Jesus is not a soul. He was not created from the dust of the earth.
Satan is a god according to the Bible? True?
But Jesus is not even a minor god ?????
You dare not answer this because you are wrong.
Shermana
Heretic
Jesus is a "Minor god" in that the only "Major" God is THE god, who is the Father, but more higher in rank than "Satan" who is "The god of this age" in the sense that he is given power over the world except where the Father intervenes through his agent, the Logos.
John 1:1c should read "And the word was a god", like the JW bible and others like theirs.
Likewise, a "Soul" is not just a word for a living being. Constantly the "Soul" is referenced as something that humans contain, and that lives beyond the grave.
You dare not answer any of the questions I asked you about Revelation because you know YOU are wrong.
John 1:1c should read "And the word was a god", like the JW bible and others like theirs.
Likewise, a "Soul" is not just a word for a living being. Constantly the "Soul" is referenced as something that humans contain, and that lives beyond the grave.
You dare not answer any of the questions I asked you about Revelation because you know YOU are wrong.