The prophet peace be upon him and his wives

[Godobeyer]

Individual acts? we are talking millions here

the millions of the christians that occupation the world before or what you mean

see the babysister what they done at your civilisation

[youtube]_akULJdP0Gc[/youtube]
YouTube - ‫

 

[waitasec]

The red is the essential problem I think, in any such dialogue. The whole approach is different, one is focussed on the individual as the standard to measure the good or bad, one is focussed on the Unity of the Absolute as the standard.

i'm sorry, i'm not sure i follow...
"what was wrong then is wrong now"
are you saying what is wrong for an individual isn't necessarily a wrong in the standard held for all?

 

[Godobeyer]

i don't believe the bible is the word of god.

all i know as far as freeing slaves in the OT there was the year of jubilation
when CERTAIN slaves were set free
and why point your finger at other religions so you can feel better about your religion?
children behave like that, right?

good you are from the west , you have to blame first the bible first than blame the Quran , because at least the Quran said free A slave , but the bible did not :clap
-in all the ways you blaming God (Bible , Quran) , why He did not order and care to free all slaves now

 

[waitasec]

good you are from the west , you have to blame first the bible first than blame the Quran , because at least the Quran said free A slave , but the bible did not :clap
-in all the ways you blaming God (Bible , Quran) , why He did not order and care to free all slaves now

it doesn't matter,
god/allah never said
"free all the slaves because no one is to have dominion over another"

 

[England my lionheart]

the millions of the christians that occupation the world before or what you mean

see the babysister what they done at your civilisation

[youtube]_akULJdP0Gc[/youtube]
YouTube - ‫

I'm not a Christian and would agree with you on the damage done by Christianity but Islam is right up there beside them,although i would say Islam has many facets these days but in the Middle and Far East it surpasses itself in Human rights violations IMO.

 

[Godobeyer]

it doesn't matter,
god/allah never said
"free all the slaves because no one is to have dominion over another"

oh , why you blamed only Allah and Quran before ?!!! why don't blame also the Bible and the west for their awful recently past (colonization)

 

[waitasec]

oh , why you blamed only Allah and Quran before ?!!! why don't blame also the Bible and the west for their awful recently past (colonization)

as i mentioned before, this thread is about islam...

 

[A-ManESL]

i'm sorry, i'm not sure i follow...
"what was wrong then is wrong now"
are you saying what is wrong for an individual isn't necessarily a wrong in the standard held for all?

What I mean is that when you are saying "what was/is wrong" it pertains to wrong as regard to the individual gain of the person, for example his freedom taken away was wrong as an individual. This whole approach of your selecting who or what is right and what is wrong is based on the individual and can be contrasted with another approach. The other approach is based on the harmony with the Absolute, what is wrong or right for a particular person's self doesnt matter, what is wrong or right is decided with regard to the amount of harmony it brings with the Absolute.

The justification of this latter way of measuring is this: the knowledge that the real purpose of the soul is to achieve the state of the primordial state of harmony with the Absolute, which is the real meaning of Unity or wahdat, in short the crux is going back towards God. What for people are individual considerations, are really irrelevant for they do not do anything towards that purpose. In Sufi terms, for the lover all that matters is the meeting with the Beloved, the rest is mere scenery.

The Prophet (and in fact all the holy men of all faiths) focussed themselves towards that, and the holy books reflect this focus. That is the first meaning of their message. If that whole approach is not understood initially, then all attempts at discussing religiousness are flawed. Once the initial concept is grasped then we can note that the context and the conditions of the society in which the man or woman of God was present dictate in what form his initial concept is presented. So the choosing of what is wrong is contingent upon the first principle. If something doesnt affect the first principle, then its not really wrong or right in essence but only relatively wrong or right with regard to conditions and context of the society. And this is the net approach.

(You may look at the Quranic story in verses 18:65-82, even killing is done by a man of God! It might seem strange to people who havent understood the meaning of Islam, hence the Prophet said "Islam began as a stranger and will end as a stranger.")

Regards

 

[Autodidact]

I explained how it wasnt little girls as you're seeing it, but it seems you either cant stand the idea that it may not be as horrible as you think , or just dont want to listen.

Wait, you're saying a 9-year old is not a little girl? How does that work?

As I said earlier, I have a cousin who is ten , had her menses and she was like a WOMEN as much as this word can hold. AND , I live in a moderate atmosphere, imagine we're in a desert.

No, bubba, puberty or not, a ten-year old is not a woman; she's a child. It has to do with mental and emotional development, not physical.

In cold countries, the signs of menses can be late to sometimes 15 years, like my sister when we lived in France , she had her menses at 15 years. She didnt have a body of a real women before her menses.

Why am I talking about menses? Because it is the beginning of women's body transformation.

So what you're telling me is that pedophilia is Islamic? Because I have news for you, if you have sex with a 9-year old girl, it's pedophilia.

Now, can you open your eyes a bit based on fairness and understand what Im saying?

Yes, you're saying that the prophet and role-model of your religion married a 9-year old girl, and you think that's just fine. Thank you.

 

[Autodidact]

So you are imposing your own moral conditions on them even when they are morally right in their own eyes?

Uh, yeah. Just because someone thinks something is right doesn't make it right. Duh. This is not complicated stuff, at least to a non-Muslim. It is morally wrong to exploit a small child to fulfill your adult sexual desires. Adults should only have sex with, and marry, other adults. To do otherwise is immoral. And yes, even if you think it's right, I reserve the right to disagree.

 

[Autodidact]

I'll discuss pedophilia later. So when I see homosexuality and that goes against my morals does it make it a crime? "If that is how you wish to look at it [homosexuality]. But it really doesn't make homosexuality less of a crime".

Well no, because you're wrong. There is nothing immoral about homosexuality. That's the key difference. One involves exploiting others who are too young to have an equal voice; the other does not. Unless, of course, it's homosexual pedophilia, then it's wrong. Again--not complicated, unless you're Muslim. Then apparently your morality becomes extremely skewed.

 

[Autodidact]

I am agree with in this time , in the recently past , it's ok when a girl 12 years old married , i don't know why ?!!! not only my mother or my grandmother married at young age , all the girls here were married at young age , 12 to 15 years ,
they were mature very early in recently past , but this time it's diferent

Because they lived in patriarchal societies that did not protect or value girls. It was wrong, but fortunately, most of the non-Muslim world has progressed forward from that.

 

[Autodidact]

I would have posted this earlier, but people usually are quicker to criticize others than to gain some actual facts regarding their false criticism. The Hadith regarding the age of Hazrat Ayesha at the time of marriage, to be 9 is widely held among scholars as a ' Not the Real presentation of facts, quotation out of context,'.
.

I have no idea, Star, for all I know they may all be fictional characters. What matters is that millions of Muslims believe that she was nine, and that they should base their behavior on that of the man who married her at that age. In fact, I encourage you to push this other line, because it may help protect the poor young girls of Yemen and Afghanistan who are being exploited in this way today. Go Starsoul!

 

[Bismillah]

Well no, because you're wrong. There is nothing immoral about homosexuality. That's the key difference. One involves exploiting others who are too young to have an equal voice; the other does not. Unless, of course, it's homosexual pedophilia, then it's wrong. Again--not complicated, unless you're Muslim. Then apparently your morality becomes extremely skewed.

Well, no. We're not discussing pedophilia. It was a response to someone who thought that marriage between young couples is wrong. Which is about as immoral as homosexuality, that is you get to pick and choose what you see as immoral, but you can't impose your standards on others.

 

[Autodidact]

huhh really? when and where? It is NOT a cultural thing for muslims, be very clear on that. If some psycho sick individual living far in a distant suburb practices pedophilia in US or UK, the whole country's religion or their law do not go to trial, it is the sick man! ( who by the way gets punished for it like 15-20 yrs depending on severity of offense and is entitled to claim 'Mentally ILL' so that he can easily go scot free again, to do the same thing again but with better ways to cover up his tracks, what condemnation of pedophilia! rather seems like facilitation).

Yes, because he does not justify his actions as being moral in the yes of his religion, since his prophet did the same thing. Further, we don't see entire districts of the US where fathers give or sell their little girls into a lifetime of marriage to an old man.

In Islam, such practice is punishable by death, ask only those kids who go through it, and feel that EVEN the death of the pedophile is not enough to curb their pain.

Really? Then why do Muslim fathers in Yemen, Afghanistan and elsewhere get away with marrying off their young daughters to old men? I've never heard of one being executed, far from it. Do you need the links and sites?

Marriage in Islam is allowed and RECOMMENDED after acquiring Maturity ,and after acquiring Puberty. Nobody married under any compulsion from any side, in any of the Prophet's spouses.

So your belief is that a a 9-year old girl is old enough to marry?

See, in enlighted societies, we don't consider old enough to make that decision.

Whenever a child has been reportedly forced into marriage, there have been untoward results of eloping, running away to parents or anyone else for seeking shelter. And all govts. and Islam is strict in dealing with such cases.

This is false. Sorry, it's a common practice in several Muslim countries.

It has been done to death on this forum, trying to paint the whole religion or a belief into a color which it is neither related to, nor a supporter of.

Well, the people who do it say it's Islamic.

 

[Autodidact]

Whats all the fisting for? Why do you people consider yourselves 'way too far ahead' in humanistics and condescend people of Islamic thought as un-educated fools? If i described any Islamic rulings infront of you, you'd be biting your nails again to find faults with it, EVEN if it turned out better than ANY system prevalent in the world. Pride and prejudice hath a fall someday lady, a big hard fall.

I don't know. For me, when 12 year old girls die in chidbirth, their marriage ordained by their fathers and supported by their religion, I think it's wrong, and I don't have to bite my nails to come up with that.

 

[Bismillah]

Your whole post comprises of the statement that it's "Islamic". Taliban also state it's "Islamic" when they bomb mosques and Sufi shrines. Saddam stated its "Islamic" to oppress Shias and Kurds. Clearly just because some people label it as Islamic doesn't make it so.

It is more a condition of economic poverty than it is a religious dictation.

 

[Bismillah]

I don't know. For me, when 12 year old girls die in chidbirth, their marriage ordained by their fathers and supported by their religion, I think it's wrong, and I don't have to bite my nails to come up with that.

Do you feel the same for 17 year old girls? Tell me what is the difference between a 12 year old and a 17 year old?

 

[Autodidact]

All muslims are opposed to slavery and human trafficking. Islam uprooted all these things, check history for facts.(un-biased facts that is)

O.K., the facts: Let's start with wiki:
Historically, the major juristic schools of Islam traditionally accepted the institution of slavery...In practice, slaves played various social and economic roles from Emir to worker. Slaves were widely employed in irrigation, mining, pastoralism and the army. Even some rulers relied on military and administrative slaves to such a degree that they seized power...The Qur'an includes multiple references to slaves, slave women, slave concubinage, and the freeing of slaves. It accepts the institution of slavery. It may be noted that the word 'abd' (slave) is rarely used, being more commonly replaced by some periphrasis such as ma malakat aymanukum ("that which your right hands own"). The Qur'an recognizes the basic inequality between master and slave and the rights of the former over the latter....

The 'Oriental' or 'Arab' slave trade is sometimes called the 'Islamic' slave trade.... Propagators of Islam in Africa often revealed a cautious attitude towards proselytizing because of its effect in reducing the potential reservoir of slaves.[86]
..."It began in the middle of the seventh century and survives today in Mauritania and Sudan. With the Islamic slave trade, we're talking of 14 centuries rather than four." Further, "whereas the gender ratio of slaves in the Atlantic trade was two males to every female, in the Islamic trade, it was two females to every male."
In the 8th century Africa was dominated by Arab-Berbers in the north: Islam moved southwards along the Nile and along the desert trails. The Solomonic dynasty of Ethiopia often exported Nilotic slaves from their western borderland provinces, or from newly conquered or reconquered Muslim provinces. Native Muslim Ethiopian sultanates (rulership) exported slaves as well, such as the sometimes independent sultanate (rulership) of Adal .[88]
For a long time, until the early 18th century Crimean Khanate maintained massive slave trade with the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East. Between 1530 and 1780 there were almost certainly 1 million and quite possibly as many as 1.25 million white, European Christians enslaved by the Muslims of the Barbary Coast.[89]
On the coast of the Indian Ocean too, slave-trading posts were set up by Arabs.[90] The archipelago of Zanzibar, along the coast of present-day Tanzania, is undoubtedly the most notorious example of these trading colonies. East Africa and the Indian Ocean continued as an important region for the Oriental slave trade up until the 19th century.[2]


Those are the facts.

 

[Autodidact]

Slavery was a social fact in most of the Muslim world for nearly 1400 years, with large numbers of slaves employed in domestic service as well as commerce. Large-scale agricultural slavery, like the plantation slavery of the U.S. South, was seldom practiced in the Muslim world. This was not due to any prohibition against such forms of slave labor, but rather to economic and geographical factors. This does not mean that Islamic slavery was not harsh, as some apologists have argued, or that masters were not sometimes brutal to their slaves....The issue of slavery in Muslim societies is not purely historical but has lingering contemporary effects, especially in certain parts of Africa and the Gulf states. Some majority Muslim nations – Saudi Arabia, for example – were among the last to outlaw slavery in the twentieth century. Vestigial effects of domestic slavery still exist in certain Gulf nations in the failure of police and lawmakers to protect immigrant household workers against potential abuses by employers. Women employed as maids and nannies have little recourse against sexual coercion or harsh beatings; in some cases, those who have escaped and sought refuge with police have been forcibly returned to their employers...In some African nations, actual slavery continues. Repeated attempts to outlaw slavery in Mauritania have had little effect. The most recent declaration of abolition, in 1980, has been largely ineffective, with 90,000 black Mauritanians remaining essentially enslaved to Arab/Berber owners. (www.iabolish.com/today/background/mauritania.htm) In the Sudan, Christian captives in the ongoing civil war are often enslaved, and female prisoners are often used sexually, with their Muslim captors claiming that Islamic law grants them permission.

from here