-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
The Prophet (s) and Imams (a) stated Mohammad (s) is the final Nabi.
- Thread starter Link
- Start date
According to hadiths, the verse 31:27 was after people asked about the Ruh (the Spirit), the verse in Surah Isra "They asked you about the Ruh..." was revealed. And people then said Quran is not a deep book that when asked about the Ruh, it didn't go into details. The verse 31:27 was in response to that so according to the hadith, it means there is no end to the knowledge you can derive from God's book. It was in response to saying Quran is not a deep book of enlightenment.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
How do you think next verse is related to 31:27
"The creation and resurrection of you ˹all˺ is as simple ˹for Him˺ as that of a single soul. Surely Allah is All-Hearing, All-Seeing." 3:28
This is saying that there will be a Prophet on the Day of Resurrection and a another Law on the Day of Resurrection.
The Opening of this quote gives us a hint as to why Muhammad was the Seal of the Prophets. The Day of Resurrection has brought a new law and a new understanding. The Bab and Baha'u'llah are Manifestations of God, the 'Self of God' for all humanity.
This is the age of fulfillment. Muhammad sealed the age of Prophecy which was all about preparing us for this age.
Regards Tony
All the hadiths except one didn't have that clause. But even the hadith you quoted, it's an implication of the term "seal of Prophets" to mean there is no Prophet till day of resurrection. This means, Seal of Prophets implies finality, and is not how Baha'allah interpreted (all Prophets are each other meaning).
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
I would say the only Hadith that actually says, why Muhammad is called seal of Prophets, is the one from Imam Ali.
Any other Hadith, does not actually says, why Muhammad is called Seal of Prophets, unless one concludes for himself from the Hadith, or chooses to see that the Hadith implies finality.
With your sophistry way of language sure. Otherwise, to state it after has a purpose. It's an explanation.
By the way, the word for ended here, is "khatama" (verb form of the same word). The way Imams (a) talk is obviously they chose this word keeping in mind what Quran says.
There is this Du'a added to the Addenda of Sahifa Sajjadiya:
اَللّٰهُمَّ يَامَن
O Allah, O He who
خَصَّ مُحَمَّدًا وَآلَهٗ بِالْكَرَامَةِ
singled out Muhammad and his Household for honour,
وَ حَبَاهُمْ بِالرِّسَالَةِ
showed favour toward them with messengerhood,
وَ خَصَّصْهُمْ بِالْوَسِيْلَةِ
specified them for the mediation,[347] so
وَ جَعَلَهُمْ وَرَثَةَ الْاَنْبِيَآءِ
appointed them the heirs to the prophets,
وَ خَتَمَ بِهِمُ الْاَوْصِيَآءَ وَ الْاَئِمَّةَ
sealed with them the executors and the Imams,
وَ عَلَّمَهُمْ عِلْمَ مَا كَانَ وَ عِلْمَ مَا بَقِيَ
taught them the knowledge of what has been and what remains to be,
وَ جَعَلَ أَفْئِدَةً مِنَ النَّاسِ تَهْوِي اِلَيْهِمْ
and made the hearts of the people incline toward them!
فَصَلِّ عَلٰى مُحَمَّدٍ وَآلِهِ الطَّاهِرِيْنَ
Bless Muhammad and his Household, the pure,
وَ افْعَلْ بِنَا مَا اَنْتَ أَهْلُهٗ فِي الدِّيْنِ وَ الدُّنْيَا وَ الْآخِرَةِ
and act toward us with that of which Thou art worthy in religion, in this world, and in the next world!
اِنَّكَ عَلٰى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيْرٌ.
Thou art powerful over everything.[348]
This says they are the last group of Awisya and Imams.
اَللّٰهُمَّ يَامَن
O Allah, O He who
خَصَّ مُحَمَّدًا وَآلَهٗ بِالْكَرَامَةِ
singled out Muhammad and his Household for honour,
وَ حَبَاهُمْ بِالرِّسَالَةِ
showed favour toward them with messengerhood,
وَ خَصَّصْهُمْ بِالْوَسِيْلَةِ
specified them for the mediation,[347] so
وَ جَعَلَهُمْ وَرَثَةَ الْاَنْبِيَآءِ
appointed them the heirs to the prophets,
وَ خَتَمَ بِهِمُ الْاَوْصِيَآءَ وَ الْاَئِمَّةَ
sealed with them the executors and the Imams,
وَ عَلَّمَهُمْ عِلْمَ مَا كَانَ وَ عِلْمَ مَا بَقِيَ
taught them the knowledge of what has been and what remains to be,
وَ جَعَلَ أَفْئِدَةً مِنَ النَّاسِ تَهْوِي اِلَيْهِمْ
and made the hearts of the people incline toward them!
فَصَلِّ عَلٰى مُحَمَّدٍ وَآلِهِ الطَّاهِرِيْنَ
Bless Muhammad and his Household, the pure,
وَ افْعَلْ بِنَا مَا اَنْتَ أَهْلُهٗ فِي الدِّيْنِ وَ الدُّنْيَا وَ الْآخِرَةِ
and act toward us with that of which Thou art worthy in religion, in this world, and in the next world!
اِنَّكَ عَلٰى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيْرٌ.
Thou art powerful over everything.[348]
This says they are the last group of Awisya and Imams.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
You just accuse me of sophistry.
I am saying, Muhammad was speaking of Dispensation of Islam. With His passing, He closed Prophethood for the Dispensation of Islam, because, there was no need for more Prophets to come to complete the Revelations. It was different from Dispensation of Moses, when after Moses, Prophets of Bani Isreal came. He was clarifying it, so, Muslims know, it is not like Dispensation of Jews, so, the Muslims dont have any confusion over that.
Sahih Bukhari 3455:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "The Israelis used to be ruled and guided by prophets: Whenever a prophet died, another would take over his place. There will be no prophet after me, but there will be Caliphs who will increase in number." The people asked, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! What do you order us (to do)?" He said, "Obey the one who will be given the pledge of allegiance first. Fulfil their (i.e. the Caliphs) rights, for Allah will ask them about (any shortcoming) in ruling those Allah has put under their guardianship."
As you see, the intention was to say, those Prophets like Bani Israel won't come. Meaning those Prophets who are not Founders of a new Faith, won't come.
Because there are two type of Prophets.
Those who are Ulul-Azm, who are founder of a new faith with its Shariah. And then there are Prophets like Bani Isreal, who are not Ulul-Azm. What Muhammad said, is clear to me.
Last edited:
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
There are many Hadithes that can be seen, Qaim is different from other Imams:
عنه أخبرنا على بن الحسين باسناده عن أحمد بن محمّد بن أبى نصر، عن عاصم بن حميد الحنّاط، عن أبى بصير قال: قال: أبو جعفر (عليه السلام): يقوم القائم بأمر جديد، و كتاب جديد و قضاء جديد على العرب شديد ليس شأنه الّا السيف لا يستتيب أحدا و لا يأخذه فى اللّه لومة لائم (4
"...the Qaim rises with a new Command, New Book, and New Judgement, which is difficult to Arabs [to accept], He deserves nothing but Sword (because He says a New Book is after Quran, and thus, they want to kill Him)...."
The Qaim of Islam, is similar to the Messiah of Jews.
After Moses, there came 12 Captains, none of them were a Ulul-Azm Prophet, except the Last One, Jesus, who came with a new Book, new Judgement and New Commands.
Last edited:
The Qaim (a) is not only different to the Imams (a), he is different to all chosen ones, in that he is the universal end time Messenger that will establish justice one way or another.
However, this has nothing to do with the hadiths I quoted. The hadiths I quoted could've had a specifier "from my successors but after there will be a Prophet...". The hadiths I quoted are proof there is no Nabi after Mohammad (s).
However, this has nothing to do with the hadiths I quoted. The hadiths I quoted could've had a specifier "from my successors but after there will be a Prophet...". The hadiths I quoted are proof there is no Nabi after Mohammad (s).
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Yes, Quran is not explicit. It has Mutishabihat. As you say, that's why Sunnah is needed.
As you also believe, the knowledge of the Imams are identical. As all of them were inspired by One and the same God.
I am saying this because I want to show you some Hadithes. But in every Hadith, I only say "the Imam". I don't say which of the Infallible Imams, because all of them is like one and the same Imam.
What does it mean, the Quranic expression يوم الوقت المعلوم (the appointed Time)?
This is a Hadith from the Imam:
قال : يوم الوقت المعلوم يوم ينفخ في الصور نفخة واحدة فيموت إبليس ما بين النفخة الاولى والثانية. الخبر.
قال : ويوم الوقت المعلوم يوم ينفخ في الصور نفخة واحدة ، فيموت إبليس ما بين النفخة الاولى والثانية. وأما « نون » فكان نهرا في الجنة أشد بياضا من الثلج وأحلى من العسل ، قال الله عزوجل له : كن مدادا ، فكان مدادا ، ثم أخذ شجرة فغرسها بيده ـ ثم قال : واليد : القوة ، وليس بحيث تذهب إليه المشبهة ـ ثم قال لها : كوني قلما ، ثم قال له : اكتب ، فقال : يا رب وما أكتب؟ قال : ماهو كائن إلى يوم القيامة ، ففعل ذلك ، ثم ختم عليه وقال : لا تنطقن
إلى يوم الوقت المعلوم. [١]
قال : ويوم الوقت المعلوم يوم ينفخ في الصور نفخة واحدة ، فيموت إبليس ما بين النفخة الاولى والثانية. وأما « نون » فكان نهرا في الجنة أشد بياضا من الثلج وأحلى من العسل ، قال الله عزوجل له : كن مدادا ، فكان مدادا ، ثم أخذ شجرة فغرسها بيده ـ ثم قال : واليد : القوة ، وليس بحيث تذهب إليه المشبهة ـ ثم قال لها : كوني قلما ، ثم قال له : اكتب ، فقال : يا رب وما أكتب؟ قال : ماهو كائن إلى يوم القيامة ، ففعل ذلك ، ثم ختم عليه وقال : لا تنطقن
إلى يوم الوقت المعلوم. [١]
The Imam says, the Appointed Time is, when it will be blown in the Trumpet. That is the Day of Resurrection.
Let's look at another Hadith from the Imam, regarding the meaning of the "Appointed Time"
أخبرنا أحمد بن إدريس قال: حدثنا أحمد بن محمد، عن محمد بن يونس، عن رجل، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام في قول الله تبارك وتعالى: فأنظرني إلى يوم يبعثون قال فإنك من المنظرين إلى يوم الوقت المعلوم، قال: - * * * يوم الوقت المعلوم هو يوم ظهور المهدي عليه السلام
This time the Imam says, "the Appointed" time is the Day of Manifestation of the Mahdi.
Let's look at another Hadith from the Imam, regarding the meaning of the "Appointed Time"
أخبرنا أحمد بن إدريس قال: حدثنا أحمد بن محمد، عن محمد بن يونس، عن رجل، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام في قول الله تبارك وتعالى: فأنظرني إلى يوم يبعثون قال فإنك من المنظرين إلى يوم الوقت المعلوم، قال: - * * * يوم الوقت المعلوم هو يوم ظهور المهدي عليه السلام
This time the Imam says, "the Appointed" time is the Day of Manifestation of the Mahdi.
Now let's look at another Hadith about meaning of "Appointed Time"
الامام الرضا عليه السلام) " لا دين لمن لا ورع له، ولا إيمان لمن لا تقية له إن أكرمكم عند الله أعملكم بالتقية، فقيل له: يا ابن رسول الله إلى متى ؟ قال: إلى يوم الوقت المعلوم، وهو يوم خروج قائمنا
This time, the Imam says, "Appointed Time" is the Day our Qaim rises.
How is it that, in one Hadith says, "Appointed Time" is when the Trumpet is blown on the Resurrection Day, which is exactly what the Quran says, "Appointed Time" and "Blowing in Trumpet" and "Day of Resurrection" are all the same event as the Day of Judgement.
But in quite some other Hadithes, the Imam says, "Appointed time" or "Blowing in Trumpet" is the same as "Rise of The Qaim" or "Day of Manifestation of the Qaim"?
Which one is correct?
Now this is yet another Hadith from the Imam:
الامام الرضا عليه السلام) " لا دين لمن لا ورع له، ولا إيمان لمن لا تقية له إن أكرمكم عند الله أعملكم بالتقية، فقيل له: يا ابن رسول الله إلى متى ؟ قال: إلى يوم الوقت المعلوم، وهو يوم خروج قائمنا
This time, the Imam says, "Appointed Time" is the Day our Qaim rises.
How is it that, in one Hadith says, "Appointed Time" is when the Trumpet is blown on the Resurrection Day, which is exactly what the Quran says, "Appointed Time" and "Blowing in Trumpet" and "Day of Resurrection" are all the same event as the Day of Judgement.
But in quite some other Hadithes, the Imam says, "Appointed time" or "Blowing in Trumpet" is the same as "Rise of The Qaim" or "Day of Manifestation of the Qaim"?
Which one is correct?
Now this is yet another Hadith from the Imam:
عن جابر عن أبي عبد الله في قول الله تعالى وَاللَّيْلِ إِذا يَغْشى
قال دولة إبليس إلى يوم القيامة وهو يوم قيام القائم
وَالنَّهارِ إِذا تَجَلَّى وهو القائم إذا قام
Here again Imam says, the Day of Resurrection is the Day the Qaim rises.
Does the Imam speak clearly, or Mutishabihat?
Let's look at another Hadith:
عيون أخبار الرضا (ع): أبي، عن علي، عن أبيه، عن حيون مولى الرضا، عن الرضا عليه السلام قال:
من رد متشابه القرآن إلى محكمه هدي إلى صراط مستقيم، ثم قال عليه السلام: إن في أخبارنا متشابها كمتشابه القرآن، ومحكما كمحكم القرآن، فردوا متشابهها إلى محكمها، ولا تتبعوا متشابهها دون محكمها فتضلوا.
The Imam says, when I give news about future, I also speak both in a clear language as well as Mutishabihat Just as the Quran is so. If you want to be guided, you must recognize when I speak Mutishabihat, and when I speak in a clear language. Then do not follow the Mutishabihat. Follow the Clear words to be guided.
So, the Question is, when the Imam is saying that Day of Resurrection is the same as Day of Rise of The Qaim, is this clear or Mutishabih?
Now here is another Hadith:
هل ينظرون إلا أن يأتيهم الله في ظلل من الغمام والملائكة وقضي الامر وإلى الله ترجع الامور)] (البقرة - 210). أن المهدي عليه السلام يأتي العراق في سبع قباب من نور [1466 - (الامام الباقر عليه السلام) " ينزل في سبع قباب من نور، لا يعلم في أيها هو حين ينزل في ظهر الكوفة فهذا حين ينزل "]
This is about the verse of Quran 2:210, which is about the Day of Judgement when Humanity meets God. The verse says "are they but waiting for God to come down in the clouds...", the Imam says this means "the Mahdi comes to Iraq"
And yet, here is another Hadith:
روى الفضل قال: سمعت أبي عبد اللّه محمد عليه السلام يقول:
إذا قام المهدي عليه السلام أشرقت الأرض بأنوارها، و استغنى العباد عن ضوء الشمس
إذا قام المهدي عليه السلام أشرقت الأرض بأنوارها، و استغنى العباد عن ضوء الشمس
The Hadith says, when the Mahdi Rises, the earth shall shine with His light, whereas the Quran says, the earth shall shine with the light of Her Lord.
Which one is it? The earth shall shine with the light of the Mahdi or with the light of her Lord?
Don't get me wrong I don't want to tell you there is guidance in these Hadithes for everyone. Maybe there is maybe there isn't. Who am i to judge. I just want to show you how confusing and contradictory they appear to be. I mean how can someone even trust any of the Hadithes when everyone of them says a conflicting thing?
I suppose they just choose the ones they like, and reject the ones they don't like, saying these Hadithes that I don't like, must be fake Hadithes, yes?
Last edited:
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Yes, the Hadithes could have had a specifier. One could say the same thing about the Quran, that the verses could have had a specifier about the 12 Imams so, there wouldn't be any conflict in Islam about the legitimate Successors.
But you seem to suggest, if the Quran was specific and explicit about Imams, it would have faced Tahreef.
I am not sure if you can back up your reasoning from Hadithes or Verses of Quran, that the reason Imams are not explicit in the Quran is because it would have been Tahrif. Is this what the Imam says?
i mean if a Sunni asks you Why the Quran does not say explicitly or clearly after Muhammad there will be 12 Imams, first one is Ali, etc. Is this what you tell them, that the Quran would have been Tahreef?
Imam Ali does say this when explaining why it says “a peace be upon the family of Yaseen” instead of family of Mohammad. He talks how Satan caste sorcery regarding every revelation as well. It’s in the long dialogue between him and an atheist who had problems with the Quran.
Also realize Imams are the central topic of Quran. It’s clear enough for humble hearts that fear God. It’s more on the clear side then hidden. And it becomes more clear when all of Quran is kept in mind. And when mini context is seen for what it is. Really if not for sorcery from Satan it would be seen by all. And Hadiths are to clarify and do face fabrications so same logic does not apply.
Explain in what way Satan has been killed now. Otherwise there is no problem in that the day he been respited to is when Imam Mahdi rises. But Satan is not dead now so this hadith goes against your concept.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
@Link
Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."
Quran 2:136
As for me, this [is] my covenant with them, saith YHWH; My spirit that [is] upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith YHWH, from henceforth and for ever.
Isaiah 59:21
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
John 10:34-36
I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Psalms 82:6-7
Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."
Quran 2:136
As for me, this [is] my covenant with them, saith YHWH; My spirit that [is] upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith YHWH, from henceforth and for ever.
Isaiah 59:21
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
John 10:34-36
I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Psalms 82:6-7
I believe the Quran says God rose some in rank, and says he doesn't replace a sign/proof except with the like of it or better. I agree we should not make differences in that we shouldn't see it more important to believe in Musa (a) over Haroun (a) nor Isa (a), and accept an Ahlulbayt all together. The Asbat (branches) translated there as tribes, refers to the successors of Ibrahim (a). Ismail (a), Isaac (a), Yaqoub (a) are examples of this. This is to say, Isaac (a) (even thought no details in Quran about his life) is not less important then Ibrahim (a). The founders come to guide, and the successors are just as important to believe in as without them, the nation is bound to go astray.
However, the universal Ahlulbayt (a) is obviously higher then all past Ahlulbayts (a) and logically, when an Ahlulbayt is replaced, they are replaced by more luminous and brighter Ahlulbayt.
I don't see Isa (a) higher rank then Yahya (a) nor vice versa. However, I see Ahlulbayt (a) of Mohammad (s) and Ali (a) higher then the Ahlulbayt (a) of Musa (a) and Haroun (a). But in terms of how important it is to believe, they all important. Ahlulbayt (a) weren't there when Musa (a) was guiding people nor was Musa (a) there when Ibrahim (a) was guiding people. To believe in importance of acknowledging all of them is important.
What is meant by "twelve Captains with him" and what is represented by the twelve Lion statues of Sulaiman (a) is that they are with the current guide. For example, Imam Jaffar (a) has six predecessors (a) (inclusive of Mohammad (s)) and six successors (a). They ascend together, decide together, lead together and are united together for the sake of uniting believers. God formed this way and put them to unite the final group of believers.
By the name of God, the Compassionate (widely), the Compassionate (intensely) for the sake of the unity of the togetherness (Quraysh)(1)
Is their unity in the journey of winter and summer(2)
So let them worship the Lord of this house/family (bayt)(3)
That has freed them from (any/a) hunger and (any/a) fear(4)
-Surah Quraysh, Quran, my translation.
Last edited: