paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Christians played their own part ( like Paul) ; but it started with the Jewish scribes themselves; they started with the character assassination of the innocent prophets/messengers of the One-True-God (G-d).
Regards
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
The prophets tell us that THE SCRIBES HAD CHANGED THE GOD'S LAW
- Thread starter Porque77
- Start date
Christians played their own part ( like Paul) ; but it started with the Jewish scribes themselves; they started with the character assassination of the innocent prophets/messengers of the One-True-God (G-d).
Regards
Avi1001
reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
Can you tell us, in your own words (no cut and paste), what the One-True-G-d (OTG) means to you? Please do not post scripture! We all know where to find it.
Also, is the OTG pantheistic or panentheistic? Please explain why?
Last edited:
RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
Gee, Monty, you forgot to mention Door #3 - Neither.
CMike
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by CMike
That's easy. He will fulfill the messianic prohesies in Michah 4:3 and Ezekiel 37.
They are
1) The "second coming" is purely a christian concept. It's not in jewish scritpure (Tanach). Therefore, it has nothing to do with these prophesies.
2) This list come from the messianic prohesies prophesized by the prophets. I listed the sources, you can go there and look them up.
Bottom line is jesus didn't fulfill them, he wasn't a jewish messiah.
That's easy. He will fulfill the messianic prohesies in Michah 4:3 and Ezekiel 37.
They are
- World peace
- All the jews coming to Israel
- All the jews staying in Israel
- He will be a descendent of David (lineage goes solely through the biological father)
- The temple in jerusalem will be rebuilt and stand forever
- He will be a unified king of Israel
1) The "second coming" is purely a christian concept. It's not in jewish scritpure (Tanach). Therefore, it has nothing to do with these prophesies.
2) This list come from the messianic prohesies prophesized by the prophets. I listed the sources, you can go there and look them up.
Bottom line is jesus didn't fulfill them, he wasn't a jewish messiah.
CMike
Well-Known Member
Why do you feel this backs up what you said?
CMike
Well-Known Member
Is it not hard to understand? What exactly is work and creating?
Is cooking work? Is starting a fire creating and work?
Actually it's not easy to understand. Especially if jews are living their lives by it, they need to know exactly what they can and can not do on shabbos.
That's why G-D gave the oral law as well on Mt. Sinai.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Where is the scroll that Moses gave to Levites?
Deuteronomy - Chapter 31:9,24,26-29
9. Then Moses wrote this Torah, and gave it to the priests, the descendants of Levi, who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and to all the elders of Israel.
24. And it was, when Moses finished writing the words of this Torah in a scroll, until their very completion,
26. "Take this Torah scroll and place it along side the ark of covenant of the Lord, your God, and it will be there as a witness.
27. For I know your rebellious spirit and your stubbornness. Even while I am alive with you today you are rebelling against the Lord, and surely after my death!
28. Assemble to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, and I will speak these words into their ears, and I will call upon the heaven and the earth as witnesses against them.
29. For I know that after my death, you will surely become corrupted, and deviate from the way which I had commanded you. Consequently, the evil will befall you at the end of days, because you did evil in the eyes of the Lord, to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands.
Deuteronomy - Chapter 31 (Parshah Vayelech) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible
Regards
CMike
Well-Known Member
It's in my closest. What's the difference?
There were numerous other scrolls written from that one.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
The One-True-God is:
1. One; none is His associate or even like Him; He is unique; and is for everybody and everybody needs Him whatever race, religion or place one belongs to.
2. He is truthful; in fact one of his names is Truth
3. He is attributives God; with all the beautiful attributes with no blemish.
Regards
Last edited:
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
@Avi1001 and other Jewish and other friends with love
I think you won't mind; I would like to add the following to my above post:
"Eternal truth is embodied in a being known as Tao* whose attributes are spiritual and holy rather than material. Tao can be aptly defined as a personification of eternal virtues.
They are precisely the same attributes as ascribed to God in Islam and other Divinely revealed religions. Taoism ( or Islam) teaches man to completely submit to Truth (Tao), and to strive to modulate Tao. Tao is the model, and Taoism is the way to gain nearness to this model.
The same is the treatment in the Holy Quran regarding the relationship between God and man:
The hues of God! And who is more beautiful in hues than God?—and Him alone do we worship. *
In Islam God is described and introduced through His attributes and the goal set for Muslims is to emulate them to modulate their lives. The description of Tao, presented by Lao-tzu, is quite similar to the attributes of God mentioned in the Quran. He writes:
‘The great Tao is vast. He is on the left and He is on the right. All creatures depend upon Him, and the care of them tires Him not. He brings creation to completion, without seeking reward.
He provides for all His creation, but requires nothing for Himself, so He may be considered small. All creatures turn to Him for their needs, yet He keeps nothing for Himself, thus He may be named ‘the Supreme’. He does not consider Himself great and because of this He is truly Great."
Pages 165-166 “Revelation, Rationality, Knowledge & Truth” by Mirza Tahir Ahmad
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_2_section_4.html
* The One-True-God (G-d)
Regards
I think you won't mind; I would like to add the following to my above post:
"Eternal truth is embodied in a being known as Tao* whose attributes are spiritual and holy rather than material. Tao can be aptly defined as a personification of eternal virtues.
They are precisely the same attributes as ascribed to God in Islam and other Divinely revealed religions. Taoism ( or Islam) teaches man to completely submit to Truth (Tao), and to strive to modulate Tao. Tao is the model, and Taoism is the way to gain nearness to this model.
The same is the treatment in the Holy Quran regarding the relationship between God and man:
The hues of God! And who is more beautiful in hues than God?—and Him alone do we worship. *
In Islam God is described and introduced through His attributes and the goal set for Muslims is to emulate them to modulate their lives. The description of Tao, presented by Lao-tzu, is quite similar to the attributes of God mentioned in the Quran. He writes:
‘The great Tao is vast. He is on the left and He is on the right. All creatures depend upon Him, and the care of them tires Him not. He brings creation to completion, without seeking reward.
He provides for all His creation, but requires nothing for Himself, so He may be considered small. All creatures turn to Him for their needs, yet He keeps nothing for Himself, thus He may be named ‘the Supreme’. He does not consider Himself great and because of this He is truly Great."
Pages 165-166 “Revelation, Rationality, Knowledge & Truth” by Mirza Tahir Ahmad
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_2_section_4.html
* The One-True-God (G-d)
Regards
Last edited:
Avi1001
reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
my pleasure to know that the Scroll that Moses wrote is in your closet.
Please check if the verses in question are written in it by Moses:
Deuteronomy - Chapter 31:9,24,26-29
Regards
Last edited:
Avi1001
reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
Paar, I have never seen a Muslim post so much Torah....you are an interfaith forum, just on your own. 
One of the five books talks about Moses death. All the poster said was that he didn't write the 5 books, which must be true. Then who did? "Ezra" said the poster. What's wrong with saying that?
I believe that what is objectionable here is that Par's unusual view of Deuteronomy, isolating the part that talks about Israel's failure from the part that talks about Isreal then recovering. Its a cycle as I understand it. Why not isolate the other part instead about Israel being a treasure? It is cherry picking.
Also he seems to think that prophets can't make errors, which doesn't make sense to me. They obviously can. If they couldn't make errors they would be more than prophets. Many of the prophets were recorded to make errors. It doesn't mean they weren't prophets, just that they made an error.
I believe that what is objectionable here is that Par's unusual view of Deuteronomy, isolating the part that talks about Israel's failure from the part that talks about Isreal then recovering. Its a cycle as I understand it. Why not isolate the other part instead about Israel being a treasure? It is cherry picking.
Also he seems to think that prophets can't make errors, which doesn't make sense to me. They obviously can. If they couldn't make errors they would be more than prophets. Many of the prophets were recorded to make errors. It doesn't mean they weren't prophets, just that they made an error.
Last edited:
CMike
Well-Known Member
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
I don't get you exactly, please.
Do you mean that Moses the prophet/messenger of the One-True-God made a mistake or an error in the verses of Deuteronomy - Chapter 31:9,24,26-29.
Please express yourself fully in this connection.
What is the error in the verses? Please
Regards
CMike
Well-Known Member
I think I somewhat understand what you are asking.
Who Wrote the Torah?: Moses Response on Ask the Rabbi
The Torah was given to the entire Jewish people at Mount Sinai. (In fact, all Jewish souls past, present and future were there at the time.)
As for the actual verses, the Torah was dictated from God to Moses, letter-for-letter. From there, the Midrash (Devarim Rabba 9:4) tells us that prior to his death, Moses wrote 13 scrolls.
Twelve of these were distributed to each of the Twelve Tribes. The thirteenth was placed in the Ark of the Covenant (with the stone Tablets). If anyone would come and attempt to rewrite or falsify the Torah, the one in the Ark would "testify" against him.
As for the final 8 verses of Deuteronomy, the Talmud has two opinions:
1) Moshe wrote it himself, simply following God's instruction to write about his own death, or
2) The final 8 verses were written by Joshua.
(sources: Talmud Menachot 30a, Gittin 60a)
Below answers another frequent question.
How Did the Torah Exist Before it Happened? - Questions & Answers
Who Wrote the Torah?: Moses Response on Ask the Rabbi
The Torah was given to the entire Jewish people at Mount Sinai. (In fact, all Jewish souls past, present and future were there at the time.)
As for the actual verses, the Torah was dictated from God to Moses, letter-for-letter. From there, the Midrash (Devarim Rabba 9:4) tells us that prior to his death, Moses wrote 13 scrolls.
Twelve of these were distributed to each of the Twelve Tribes. The thirteenth was placed in the Ark of the Covenant (with the stone Tablets). If anyone would come and attempt to rewrite or falsify the Torah, the one in the Ark would "testify" against him.
As for the final 8 verses of Deuteronomy, the Talmud has two opinions:
1) Moshe wrote it himself, simply following God's instruction to write about his own death, or
2) The final 8 verses were written by Joshua.
(sources: Talmud Menachot 30a, Gittin 60a)
Below answers another frequent question.
How Did the Torah Exist Before it Happened? - Questions & Answers
There is a lot of dirt on Moses (and on many of the prophets). Here is an example of Moses making a mistake: He killed a man in Egypt. So right from the start we know that Moses was a murderer. How can a murderer write anything pure?
Here is an example of Moses making a mistake with his miraculous staff which was one of the signs given: He became angry and instead of speaking to the rock to produce water he disobeyed and attacked it with the staff. The sign given to him to prove he was a prophet he abused it to disobey, merely because he was angry. It proves that he never overcame his anger problem. Perhaps that is why he killed an Egyptian man -- in anger.
He personally broke with his own hands the first set of 10 stone commandments. Probably he did this in anger, too. Moses was not a man who made no mistakes, but a man who made mistakes.
He also was ruling the Israelites poorly until his father in law came to visit and pointed out how to make improvements. He ruled them poorly, yet he was responsible for many of the written decisions in the Tanach. Shall we then conclude that everything he wrote was perfect? It is not right to attribute perfection of writing to such an imperfect man. Maybe if he had more self control I could accept that.
I'm merely showing that prophets in the Tanach made mistakes. I don't know what all of their mistakes were, but they definitely made mistakes. So if they made mistakes then there is no reason to presume that those mistakes were limited in scope.
The stories in Judges even suggest that one prophet deceived another and kept him from doing his duty. So how can anyone insist that everything the prophets wrote was correct? It does not follow. You can choose to believe that everything they wrote was correct, but I don't see any reason to assume that.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
If Jesus had had a problem with the Prophets, He would have said so.
He had no problem with the Torah, but we only have a quote of him reading Isaiah. He doesn't comment on 'The Prophets' much, but he himself says that Moses made the judgement call about divorce. So the picture I'm getting, possibly, from Jesus is that the 10 commandments were the only part that was untouched by Moses. I haven't thought too deeply about that.Disciple said: