The Prospect of Going to Hell

[Trailblazer]

Have you got an inside line on this, is there a brochure?

I only wish there was a brochure.

No, there is no brochure on what heaven will be like, but praising god and talking to pious goody goodies is something people do in this life. It is no longer necessary to be doing that in the next life. There will be other things to do.

 

[Balthazzar]

It sounds like you're carrying a heavy burden. Remember, 1 John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Forgiveness is a central promise of your faith.

Umm, yes and no ... I'm labouring to enter into a more restful state. It's a Hebrews 4 reference. We work, we honor that which is important, and we continue in this way in hope of achieving that which we labor for. When I'm done I'll be done, but until then, I labor as I do for a desired end, and often enough experienced in-between the difficulties that present themselves in life. It's not at all all bad. It's just life and our place in it.

 

[Alien826]

Why would you think heaven or eternal life would be boring? Just look at the amazing beauty, variety, abundance, and intricacies of this world and the universe, which according to the scriptures is damaged. The new heaven and earth promises to be flawless perfection and beauty with endless possibilities for learning, pleasure, enjoyment and love.

I also think heaven would eventually be boring, even given your description of it. The problem lies with two things. First my own capacity to maintain interest in even "perfect" things and second the idea that it never ends. I can see how waking up every morning knowing that the new day will offer some amazing experience that I have never known before is attractive, BUT will that still apply after 100 years? A million years? Forever?

A possible solution might be to have my memories wiped every 100 years or so and to effectively start over.

The Buddhist view, as I understand it, is to attain a mental posture where I just feel detached from everything and continue in a state of bliss. Imagine that feeling you have when you first wake up, all warm and comfortable, just before you feel the need to get up and pee. That would go on forever.

 

[Balthazzar]

Why would you think heaven or eternal life would be boring? Just look at the amazing beauty, variety, abundance, and intricacies of this world and the universe, which according to the scriptures is damaged. The new heaven and earth promises to be flawless perfection and beauty with endless possibilities for learning, pleasure, enjoyment and love.

This sounds nice, but I don't recall this ever being in the text books. It's this way already, but we have a lot of catching up to do. Our ills mostly amount to what we don't yet understand and how we interact with the world around us. Maybe one day, after we catch up and sync ourselves more so in tune with that to which we belong than we are current day, eh?

 

[Trailblazer]

I also think heaven would eventually be boring, even given your description of it.

No worries, heaven won't be as described.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I only wish there was a brochure.

No, there is no brochure on what heaven will be like, but praising god and talking to pious goody goodies is something people do in this life. It is no longer necessary to be doing that in the next life. There will be other things to do.

The notion of spending an eternity stroking the overbearing ego of the biblical God or any other narcissistic deity does not appeal to me at all.

No worries, heaven won't be as described.

I believe that a person's afterlife is primarily determined by them, meaning their character and the decisions (good or bad) they've made in their life can affect what happens to them after they die. Of course, we're all just sharing what we personally believe, whether it's based on our religious beliefs or not.

We can speculate all we want about the afterlife or base our beliefs on some holy book, but I don't believe we will truly know for sure until we die and cross over. As I stated earlier today in another post, I personally reject all of the Bible's assertions about the afterlife, and I no longer fear dying since I renounced my belief in the biblical God. However, I am curious about how my life will end and whether I will cross over into the spirit world. But I am not concerned about what will happen to me on the other side. To be honest, I believe that none of us truly knows what will happen to us after we die. Some religious people claim to know based on their preferred religious beliefs, church doctrines, and religious texts, but in my opinion, they're speculating just like the rest of us. The spirit world could be entirely different from what they expected. I believe the same is true for those who don't believe in an afterlife.

 

[Balthazzar]

The notion of spending an eternity stroking the overbearing ego of the biblical God or any other narcissistic deity does not appeal to me at all.



I believe that a person's afterlife is primarily determined by them, meaning their character and the decisions (good or bad) they've made in their life can affect what happens to them after they die. Of course, we're all just sharing what we personally believe, whether it's based on our religious beliefs or not.

We can speculate all we want about the afterlife or base our beliefs on some holy book, but I don't believe we will truly know for sure until we die and cross over. As I stated earlier today in another post, I personally reject all of the Bible's assertions about the afterlife, and I no longer fear dying since I renounced my belief in the biblical God. However, I am curious about how my life will end and whether I will cross over into the spirit world. But I am not concerned about what will happen to me on the other side. To be honest, I believe that none of us truly knows what will happen to us after we die. Some religious people claim to know based on their preferred religious beliefs, church doctrines, and religious texts, but in my opinion, they're speculating just like the rest of us. The spirit world could be entirely different from what they expected. I believe the same is true for those who don't believe in an afterlife.

We all have our own understanding and know far less than what we presume we know and understand, so I am in agreement with much of what you stated. The proverbial truth associated with how we understand life. Proverbs 3:5

Truth gets twisted up and life changes to the extent where we are required to "repent" every now and then, if only to remain truer to ourselves and how we relate to life.

 

[Balthazzar]

Who do we trust if not ourselves? Who should we follow? I wonder if the guy in the drivers seat would be satisfactory as someone we might ought to trust. Some call him Jesus. I kind of doubt it, but I am making the reference to the name.

Anyway, shouldn't we lean less on other people's understanding no less than we lean on our own? As if they are any better equipped than we are or could be, by learning to exercise more accurate discernment in life

I hope this guy isn't Jesus.

Seriously ...

He's insane

 

[Balthazzar]

 

[Balthazzar]

Ok, I may should repent ... but I'm a line walker, so ...

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe that a person's afterlife is primarily determined by them, meaning their character and the decisions (good or bad) they've made in their life can affect what happens to them after they die. Of course, we're all just sharing what we personally believe, whether it's based on our religious beliefs or not.

I believe that a person's afterlife is determined by them, meaning that their character and the decisions they've made in their life will determine what happens to them after they die. That is a Baha'i belief but it is also confirmed by books that I have read such as The Afterlife Revealed.

We can speculate all we want about the afterlife or base our beliefs on some holy book, but I don't believe we will truly know for sure until we die and cross over.

I agree that we will not know about the afterlife till we cross over and that is a Baha'i belief.

According to Baha'i beliefs, God has never revealed the nature of the soul after death.

"The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men. The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 155-158

According to Baha'i beliefs, the mysteries of the afterlife have not been revealed by God, and one reason that they have not been revealed is explained in the passage below.

"Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: “Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.” The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 345-346

However, I am curious about how my life will end and whether I will cross over into the spirit world. But I am not concerned about what will happen to me on the other side.

I am curious but I am also concerned. I am not concerned because I am worried that I will go to hell, but I think it is only natural for one to be concerned about where they will spend all of eternity! Given there is no brochure or guidebook, the mere thought of going somewhere I have never been before and somewhere I know nothing about is daunting, to say the very least.

Sure, there are promises in the Bible and in the Baha'i Writings. For example:

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
(Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329)

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 323-329

All Baha'is that I know simply 'believe' in the promises of Baha'u'llah, but I need more assurance than scriptures can offer.
Without more I am not counting on anything.

To be honest, I believe that none of us truly knows what will happen to us after we die. Some religious people claim to know based on their preferred religious beliefs, church doctrines, and religious texts, but in my opinion, they're speculating just like the rest of us. The spirit world could be entirely different from what they expected. I believe the same is true for those who don't believe in an afterlife.

And therein lies the problem. Christians and Baha'is can be so sure that the afterlife will be blissful and glorious, but that is simply a faith-based belief. The spirit world could be entirely different from what they expected.

Moreover, generic promises for all believers make no sense to me because even if the afterlife is blissful and glorious for most people that does not mean it will be blissful and glorious for everyone. I am not like most people in this life so why would I be like most people in the afterlife?

 

[InChrist]

An eternity spent praising god and talking to pious goody goodies, no thanks.
I don't want 'flawless perfection and beauty', give me flawed any day.

I don’t think you actually comprehend the eternal states of either existence in the new heaven and earth or separation from God… but the choice is yours.

 

[Truthseeker]

That is a sweet movie. Sara and I enjoy that.

 

[Altfish]

I don’t think you actually comprehend the eternal states of either existence in the new heaven and earth or separation from God… but the choice is yours.

I don't think yo actually comprehend what atheism is ... but the choice is yours.

 

[Alien826]

The notion of spending an eternity stroking the overbearing ego of the biblical God or any other narcissistic deity does not appeal to me at all.

Right. It seems to me that these descriptions of "god" are based on human rulers of the time. Power obsessed, insecure, requiring constant stroking of their fragile egos, requiring exact forms of address and so on. It seems to me (and I'm still working from a base of humanity) that a truly all powerful being would have such a level of self confidence that it wouldn't need "praise" or adoration or any of that stuff. Do you demand that an ant worship you?

Incidentally, have the read the book What Dreams May Come by Richard Matheson? Not the movie with Robin Williams (which was admittedly entertaining) but the original book. The story is entertaining, but there's a lot of stuff at the end where he presents "proof" that his vision of the afterlife is accurate. I never actually took it far enough to check that, but the guy seems to be personally convinced. I found it internally cohesive, though I wasn't convinced, obviously. For example, the idea that we actually form (not create, but shape) the spirit world ourselves. That was reflected in the movie where the protagonist found himself in a personal world based on a painting and had to make an effort to break out of it.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Right. It seems to me that these descriptions of "god" are based on human rulers of the time. Power obsessed, insecure, requiring constant stroking of their fragile egos, requiring exact forms of address and so on. It seems to me (and I'm still working from a base of humanity) that a truly all powerful being would have such a level of self confidence that it wouldn't need "praise" or adoration or any of that stuff. Do you demand that an ant worship you?

Well said, in my opinion.

Incidentally, have the read the book What Dreams May Come by Richard Matheson? Not the movie with Robin Williams (which was admittedly entertaining) but the original book. The story is entertaining, but there's a lot of stuff at the end where he presents "proof" that his vision of the afterlife is accurate. I never actually took it far enough to check that, but the guy seems to be personally convinced. I found it internally cohesive, though I wasn't convinced, obviously. For example, the idea that we actually form (not create, but shape) the spirit world ourselves. That was reflected in the movie where the protagonist found himself in a personal world based on a painting and had to make an effort to break out of it.

I've seen the movie, but I haven't read the book.

 

[Trailblazer]

Right. It seems to me that these descriptions of "god" are based on human rulers of the time. Power obsessed, insecure, requiring constant stroking of their fragile egos, requiring exact forms of address and so on. It seems to me (and I'm still working from a base of humanity) that a truly all powerful being would have such a level of self confidence that it wouldn't need "praise" or adoration or any of that stuff. Do you demand that an ant worship you?

Yes, I agree. Those depictions of God are not depicting the one true God, they are depicting an anthropomorphic god.
An all-powerful God does not want or need or demand anything from humans.

God does not want worship for Himself. God only wants us to worship Him for our own benefit.
It does not affect God if we choose not to worship Him. Baha’u’llah made it perfectly clear that God has no needs since God is self-sufficient, thus God cannot have a “need” to be worshiped.

“This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 166

God does not demand worship, God enjoins us to worship Him, and that is only for our own benefit, not for God’s benefit.

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings, p. 140

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260

God cares about humans so God wants them to know Him and worship Him, but God does not need anyone to know Him and worship Him, because God is entirely self-sufficient so God does not have needs. Only humans have needs.

“Your Lord, the God of mercy, can well dispense with all creatures. Nothing whatever can either increase or diminish the things He doth possess.” Gleanings, p. 148

God has the power to dispense with all of His creatures in one split second but He doesn’t do so because He loves them.