The Qur'aan Cosmological Model: A delineation of the Origin, Evolution and End of the Universe

[Gjallarhorn]

It is not the same analogy. The Qur'aan makes definite statements. Not random statements. The only problem is you are afraid to investigate it yourself. That is how it appears or you do not know how to go about it.

I have made a definite statement that you will die in four days. If you do in fact die in four days, can I honestly take credit for the results?

 

[al-amiyr]

I have made a definite statement that you will die in four days. If you do in fact die in four days, can I honestly take credit for the results?

Well if you planned to do it for example hired a hit man then you could claim. The whole matter must first be investigated. Again the analogy is not the same.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Well if you planned to do it for example hired a hit man then you could claim. The whole matter must first be investigated. Again the analogy is not the same.

Let's try a different one. Let's say I tell you the sun will rise tomorrow because the magical polka-dot fairies told me so. The sun rises tomorrow. Was I correct?

 

[al-amiyr]

Let's try a different one. Let's say I tell you the sun will rise tomorrow because the magical polka-dot fairies told me so. The sun rises tomorrow. Was I correct?

The sun will rise tomorrow any way. Don't ask the obvious. Ask the impossible.
Let me ask you one. If a man came to you and said. The creator of this universe gave me a code to take control of all the nuclear weapons of the earth and he does do it and takes over the earth just as he said ,"what will your reaction be?" That is the type of question that you should ask.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

The sun will rise tomorrow any way. Don't ask the obvious. Ask the impossible.
Let me ask you one. If a man came to you and said. The creator of this universe gave me a code to take control of all the nuclear weapons of the earth and he does do it and takes over the earth just as he said ,"what will your reaction be?" That is the type of question that you should ask.

You haven't answered my question. Does a valid prediction prove the methods said to give the prediction?

 

[al-amiyr]

You haven't answered my question. Does a valid prediction prove the methods said to give the prediction?

No it does not.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

No it does not.

Then neither the Quran nor your models are true based on your model's statements.

 

[al-amiyr]

Then neither the Quran nor your models are true based on your model's statements.

Either way you would have said what you wanted to say.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Either way you would have said what you wanted to say.

But this way you have agreed with me.

 

[al-amiyr]

But this way you have agreed with me.

You are a master in the art.

 

[Meow Mix]

The Qur'aan has already stated what was only discovered recently.This is where science might have no answers but the Qur'aan Cosmological Model does. The whole of Modern Cosmology is but a fraction of what is contained in the Qur'aan. The Qur'aan has a higher cosmology called The Qur'aan Metacosmogonical Model and one higher than that called The Qur'aan Metacosmological Model and beyond that lies The Hidden Book.

These are some fairly lofty claims -- ones that appear to exceed the scope of the OP; and from my experience with claims from Muslims about anachronistic science in the Qur'aan, these claims seem unique to you.

I do have one objection that applies in general while I wait to see how you justify your claims: are you familiar with subjective validation? It's the tendency of someone with an expectation for something to contain truth due to a pre-existing belief in said truth to actually "find" truth; regardless of whether the source is actually concisely and clearly even in the same context as the supposed truths "found" in the interpretation.

For instance, when the first atomic test occurred at the Trinity Site in the United States, J. Robert Oppenheimer quoted the Bhagavad Gita, "...I am become death, the destroyer of worlds." Oppenheimer wasn't seriously contending that atomic devices are mentioned in Hindu mythology; but my point is that there are seriously those who do make the claim that Hindu mythology contains descriptions of nuclear devices, and that it therefore has knowledge "ahead of its time," and that therefore it must have a Divine hand behind its writing.

It's closely related to the Forer effect. If a passage is vague enough, a person at a later time with greater knowledge might read it with the interpretation that its poetic language is literally describing something that has since been discovered -- and then this is interpreted as divine foreknowledge, when in reality it's just a coincidence that language which was originally intended to be flowery can be interpreted literally, albeit against the original intention of the author.

Is there really advanced cosmological knowledge in the Qur'aan, or is there something like the Forer Effect at work here? Something tells me it is most likely the latter.

 

[al-amiyr]

These are some fairly lofty claims -- ones that appear to exceed the scope of the OP; and from my experience with claims from Muslims about anachronistic science in the Qur'aan, these claims seem unique to you.

I do have one objection that applies in general while I wait to see how you justify your claims: are you familiar with subjective validation? It's the tendency of someone with an expectation for something to contain truth due to a pre-existing belief in said truth to actually "find" truth; regardless of whether the source is actually concisely and clearly even in the same context as the supposed truths "found" in the interpretation.

For instance, when the first atomic test occurred at the Trinity Site in the United States, J. Robert Oppenheimer quoted the Bhagavad Gita, "...I am become death, the destroyer of worlds." Oppenheimer wasn't seriously contending that atomic devices are mentioned in Hindu mythology; but my point is that there are seriously those who do make the claim that Hindu mythology contains descriptions of nuclear devices, and that it therefore has knowledge "ahead of its time," and that therefore it must have a Divine hand behind its writing.

It's closely related to the Forer effect. If a passage is vague enough, a person at a later time with greater knowledge might read it with the interpretation that its poetic language is literally describing something that has since been discovered -- and then this is interpreted as divine foreknowledge, when in reality it's just a coincidence that language which was originally intended to be flowery can be interpreted literally, albeit against the original intention of the author.

Is there really advanced cosmological knowledge in the Qur'aan, or is there something like the Forer Effect at work here? Something tells me it is most likely the latter.

I have all these Models with me. I can assure you that I am 100% sane. All who have seen this Model have been astounded. There is nothing like it the world has seen. For example about 18 years ago I presented it to Professor Farrel who ran the astronomy section at the University of Cape Town. This is what he had to say,"I cannot confirm the Arabic but the Model is up to date with Modern Cosmology, and if the Arab scholars will confirm the Arabic verses then it will be a great break through for Islaam in the world and he will read about it in Time Magazine." That was his opinion then. I am very very deeper and further now. It is not a dream or an imagination. Watch this thread I am going to present it here. It will be fully understood.

 

[Lady B]

I have all these Models with me. I can assure you that I am 100% sane. All who have seen this Model have been astounded. There is nothing like it the world has seen. For example about 18 years ago I presented it to Professor Farrel who ran the astronomy section at the University of Cape Town. This is what he had to say,"I cannot confirm the Arabic but the Model is up to date with Modern Cosmology, and if the Arab scholars will confirm the Arabic verses then it will be a great break through for Islaam in the world and he will read about it in Time Magazine." That was his opinion then. I am very very deeper and further now. It is not a dream or an imagination. Watch this thread I am going to present it here. It will be fully understood.

Did the arabic scholars confirm the arabic ?

 

[kylixguru]

Seems to me that this model has a similar pattern to Genesis chapter 1 and the 6 days of creation that have two sets of 3 days that follow a similar template.

Day 1: Light-Dark Day 4: Greater/Lesser Lights
Day 2: Waters/Firmaments Day 5: Fishes/Birds
Day 3: Dry Land/Seas Day 6: Creatures/Man

I'd also like the references on the Hidden Book in the Qur'aan.

 

[Meow Mix]

I have all these Models with me. I can assure you that I am 100% sane. All who have seen this Model have been astounded. There is nothing like it the world has seen. For example about 18 years ago I presented it to Professor Farrel who ran the astronomy section at the University of Cape Town. This is what he had to say,"I cannot confirm the Arabic but the Model is up to date with Modern Cosmology, and if the Arab scholars will confirm the Arabic verses then it will be a great break through for Islaam in the world and he will read about it in Time Magazine." That was his opinion then. I am very very deeper and further now. It is not a dream or an imagination. Watch this thread I am going to present it here. It will be fully understood.

I haven't insinuated that you're insane; but just understand that considerable skepticism regarding these lofty claims are warranted for the time being.

I must await your justification for your claims before considering further.

 

[al-amiyr]

I haven't insinuated that you're insane; but just understand that considerable skepticism regarding these lofty claims are warranted for the time being.

I must await your justification for your claims before considering further.

I just thought that I had to mention insanity because we are speaking and there is a world audience.
I do fully understand. One cannot just except any statement and especially one of this nature without valid proof; it would mean that if it is correct then the whole world might have to reconsider their approach and views.
Yes they are warranted for the time being.
It is for me now to explain it clearly for all to be able to understand and then to examine the results. Henceforward I shall continue. Thanks

 

[al-amiyr]

considerable skepticism regarding these lofty claims are warranted for the time being.

I must await your justification for your claims before considering further.

Must be read from post #1 to follow
​

Before we can embark on this simple quest to see whether or not the Qur'aan has a satisfactory and complete explanation for the existence of the universe, we need first have to present from the Qur'aan itself the relevant Qur'aanic verses for analysis.
For the sake of not wanting to be accused of not faithfully rendering the appropriate Qur'aanic verses I have decided to present the translations of mostly non-Muslim scholars to remove any such doubts. Over half of the presented translations go back prior to 1929 when it was discovered that the universe was undergoing expansion.Therefore it cannot be said that this knowledge of the 'big bang' is not contained in the Qur'aan.
Remember these are only translations and not the real Qur'aan which is in the perfect branch of the Arabic language which Arabs in the world do not speak.
The two Qur'aanic Cosmological verses go into very great detail about the entire structure of the universe from before its beginning until after its ultimate fate. The General Theory of Relativity is but a dot as compared to the details one find in these two Qur'aanic cosmological verses.I present to you here the first of the two Qur'aanic cosmological verses that when place together produces hundreds of geometric delineations of the various phases of the universe including details beyond plank time. After I have presented the second two Qur'aanic cosmological verses in posts to follow I shall begin with the detailed analysis. Hope that the debate can begin! Please do not go too much off topic and make unnecessary unrelated remarks. Take as your example the quoted lady above and be an intelligent logical no nonsense critic. Then we will be able to progess and see whether this Model will lead us to The Theory of Everything or die an ignominious death.

Translation of the first of the two Qur'aanic Cosmological Verses: The Qur'aan Chapter 21:30 The Prophets.

​

[FONT=&quot](01) - 1734 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]translation [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]---[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Do not the unbelievers therefore know,[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]that the heavens and the earth were solid[/FONT][FONT=&quot],[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]and[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]We clave the same in sunder[/FONT][FONT=&quot];[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]And[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]made every living thing of water?[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Will they not therefore believe?[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]George Sale pub. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]1734[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Christian Scholar[/FONT]​

- - -​

[FONT=&quot](02) - 1861 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]translation [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]---[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Do not the infidels see[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]that the heavens and the earth were both a solid mass,[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]and[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]that we clave them asunder,[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]and[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]that by means of water we give life to everything?[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Will they not then believe?[/FONT]​

Rev. John Medows Rodwell pub. 1861​

[FONT=&quot]Christian Scholar[/FONT]​

- - -​

[FONT=&quot](03) - [/FONT]1880[FONT=&quot] translation [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]---[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Do not those who misbelieve see [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]that the heavens and the earth were both solid,[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot] and[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]we burst them asunder; [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]and[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot] we made from water every living thing – [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]will they then not believe?[/FONT]​

Edward Henry Palmer pub. 1880​

[FONT=&quot]Christian Scholar[/FONT]​

- - -​

[FONT=&quot](04) - [/FONT]1917[FONT=&quot] translation [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]---[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Do not those who disbelieve see[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]that the heavens and the earth were closed up,[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]so[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]We rent them.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]And[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]We made from water everything living.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Will they not then believe?[/FONT]​

Maulana Muhammad Ali pub. 1917​

Ahmadi Muslim Scholar​

- - -​

[FONT=&quot](05) - [/FONT]1930 [FONT=&quot]translation [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]---[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Have not those who disbelieve known[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]that the heavens and the earth were of one piece,[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]then We parted them,[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]and[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]we made every living thing of water?[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Will they not then believe?[/FONT]​

M. Marmaduke Pickthall pub. 1930​

Christian turn Muslim Scholar​

- - -​

[FONT=&quot](06) - [/FONT]1934[FONT=&quot] translation [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]---[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Do not the Unbelievers see[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]before we clove them asunder? [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]We made from water every living thing.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot] Will they not then believe?[/FONT]​

Abdullah Yusuf Ali pub. 1934​

Muslim Scholar​

- - -​

[FONT=&quot] (07) - [/FONT]1955 [FONT=&quot]translation [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]---[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Have not the unbelievers then beheld[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]that the heavens and the earth were a mass all sewn up,[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]and[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]then We unstitched them[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]and[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]of water fashioned every living thing?[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Will they not believe?[/FONT]​

Arthur John Arberry pub. 1955​

Christian Scholar​

- - -​

[FONT=&quot](08) - [/FONT]1956 [FONT=&quot]translation [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]---[/FONT]​

Are the disbelievers unaware​

that the heavens and the earth were but one solid mass​

which We tore asunder,​

and​

that We made every living thing from water?​

Will they not have faith?​

Nessim Joseph Dawood pub. 1956​

Jewish Scholar​

- - -​

 

[al-amiyr]

considerable skepticism regarding these lofty claims are warranted for the time being.

I must await your justification for your claims before considering further.

This post must be read from post #57
This is the second of the two Qur,aanic cosmological verses we have mentioned in the previous post. Read them carefully.

​

Translation of the second of the two Qur'aanic Cosmological Verses: The Qur'aan Chapter 21:104 The Prophets.
​

[FONT=&quot](01) - 1734 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]translation [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]---[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]On that day[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]We will roll up the heavens,[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]as the angel al Sijil rolleth up the book wherein every man's actions are recorded.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]As We made the first creature out of nothing,[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]so We will also reproduce it[/FONT][FONT=&quot] at the resurrection. [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]This is a promise which it lieth on Us to fulfil:[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]We will surely perform it.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]George Sale pub. 1734[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Christian Scholar[/FONT]​

- - -​

[FONT=&quot](02) - 1861 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]translation [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]---[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]On that day[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]we will roll up the heaven[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]as one rolleth up written scrolls.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]As we made the first creation,[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]so will we bring it forth again.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]This promise bindeth us;[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]verily, we will perform it.[/FONT]​

Rev. John Medows Rodwell pub. 1861​

[FONT=&quot]Christian Scholar[/FONT]​

- - -​

[FONT=&quot](03) - [/FONT]1880 [FONT=&quot]translation [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]---[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]The day when[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]we will roll up the heavens[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]as es-Sigill rolls up the books;[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]as we produced it at its first creation[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]will we bring it back again –[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]a promise binding upon us;[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]verily, we are going to do it.[/FONT]​

Edward Henry Palmer pub. 1880​

[FONT=&quot]Christian Scholar[/FONT]​

- - -​

[FONT=&quot](04) - [/FONT]1917 [FONT=&quot]translation [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]---[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]The day[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]when We roll up heaven[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]like the rolling up of the scroll of writings.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]As We began the first creation,[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]We shall reproduce it.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]A promise (binding) on Us.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]We shall bring it about.[/FONT]​

Maulana Muhammad Ali pub. 1917​

Ahmadi Muslim Scholar​

- - -​

[FONT=&quot](05) - [/FONT]1930[FONT=&quot] translation [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]---[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]The Day[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]when We shall roll up the heavens[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]as a recorder rolleth up a written scroll.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]As We began the first creation,[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]We shall repeat it.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot](It is) a promise (binding) upon Us.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Lo! We are to perform it.[/FONT]​

M. Marmaduke Pickthall pub. 1930​

Christian turn Muslim Scholar​

- - -​

[FONT=&quot](06) - [/FONT]1934 [FONT=&quot]translation [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]---[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]The Day[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]that We roll up the heavens[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]like a scroll rolled up for books (completed),-[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]even as We produced the first creation,[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]so shall We produce a new one:[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]a promise We have undertaken:[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]truly shall We fulfil it.[/FONT]​

Abdullah Yusuf Ali pub. 1934​

Muslim Scholar​

- - -​

[FONT=&quot] (07) - [/FONT]1955 [FONT=&quot]translation [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]---[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]On the day[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]when We shall roll up heaven[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]as a scroll is rolled for the writings;[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]as We originated the first creation,[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]so We shall bring it back again –[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]a promise binding on Us;[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]so We shall do.[/FONT]​

Arthur John Arberry pub. 1955​

Christian Scholar​

- - -​

[FONT=&quot](08) - [/FONT]1956 [FONT=&quot]translation [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]---[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]On that day[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot] We shall roll up the heaven[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot] like a scroll of parchment.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]Just as We brought the First Creation into being,[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot] so will We restore it.[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]This is a promise We shall assuredly fulfil.[/FONT]​

Nessim Joseph Dawood pub. 1956​

Jewish Scholar​

- - -​

[FONT=&quot] (9) - [/FONT]1980 [FONT=&quot]translation [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]---[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]On that Day [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]We shall roll up the skies [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]as written scrolls are rolled up; [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot][and] as We brought into being the first creation,[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot] so We shall bring it forth anew[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot] a promise which We have willed upon Ourselves: for, behold, We are able to do [all things]![/FONT]​

Muhammad Asad pub. 1980​

Jewish Scholar turn Muslim​

 

[Meow Mix]

Why is the context of rolling up the skies so specifically like that of a two dimensional rolling (such as with a parchment)? Doesn't that seem like an unrealistic way for a Big Crunch to occur? Or are you contending that in the QCM, Allah will overcome the accelerated expansion in some bizarre method such as making the universe two dimensional and rolling it up?

Also, supposing that we're talking about a future miracle here, how can anyone hope to even attempt to falsify the model?

 

[dust1n]

I said the Qur'aan says that the universe is going to be in a run away expansion. That is what the Qur'aan says and that is also the present observations.I have spoken about it almost twenty years ago and it is on record. I have given over 200 lectures on the subject during that period. I continued "and somewhere beyond that ALLAAH (God) will intervene and then bring it back again. It will not return because of its own gravitational attraction but because it will be stopped brought back. Therein is a very big difference.

But we won't be around hundreds and thousands of years to ever know if it reverses direction and that a supernatural occurrence will take place. I'm not sure I understand why God would just make the universe expand indefinitely only to come back later to make it collapse on itself... only to come back later to make it explode again...