The Return of Christ

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We believe Angels are humans on earth

Yet, Quran says for Mohammad (s) to say he does not claim to be an Angel. Same with Nuh (a) saying it "I do not say I am an Angel". And many places showing disbelievers are contending why not Angels brought down with Mohammad (s) and replies.

 

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Then what? If that happened how would anyone know it was Jesus? Beyond ridiculous.

You would know through miracles he provides.

 

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We believe that the Day of Judgment is the day of the coming of the Manifestation of God.

Which is an impossible interpretation according to many verses about it in the Quran. For example, it saying when it occurs, there will be no denial of it's occurrence. Meaning everyone would acknowledge it.

 

[Ajax]

In the NT, the Son of Man does refer to Jesus and the NT writers might have 'believed' and thus wrote that we would see Jesus return in the clouds, but that is nothing Jesus said.

So you disregard the Gospels, claiming that the writers may have written whatever they believed, even in Mark 8:31 where Jesus appears to say it himself... I don't completely disagree with you, but then what makes you think that the gospel of John which was by far the last written, contains any truth, and that the author didn't write whatever he believed?

 

[CG Didymus]

He did say he'd be back. I think it means exactly what it says that he will return.

Me too. And Quran and hadith say the same.

It doesn't matter what verses you throw at Baha'is, especially this Baha'i. For them, it can't be the same, physical Jesus coming back. Their whole religion depends on their prophet, Baha'u'llah, being the return of Christ.

But I think it is ridiculous for any Baha'i to claim that any verses in the gospels that imply that Jesus himself said he'd never come back should be taken literally. Their whole thing is to make verses in the Bible and NT symbolic.

But even when the language of the NT is taken even by Christians to be symbolic, it still seems to be talking about Jesus. Like in Revelation... it is the "Lamb" that opens the scroll. It is the "Lamb" that returns. As far as I know, the Baha'is never attempt to refer to Baha'u'llah as being this "Lamb". At best, some try and claim that the "Lamb that was slain" is their other prophet, the Bab.

But it's just words written down by the followers of Jesus. Even when the gospel writers say they are quoting Jesus, it's just them claiming that is what he said. So, why and how could a Baha'i possibly, then try to claim those were the real and exact words of Jesus?

But then, do Christians or Muslims have anything better? It all ends up depending on what a person wants to believe. Christians and Muslims say Jesus will return. Baha'is say that he won't, but they say the "Christ" spirit will return and has returned.

 

[CG Didymus]

First we have to clarify who was the Son of Man the NT writers wrote about..

The term, "Son of a Man, is used by Jesus 80 times as a way to refer to himself (32 times in Matthew; 14 times in Mark; 26 times in Luke; and 10 times in a different way from the Synoptic Gospels in John). In all these texts Jesus is the speaker; no one ever addresses him as Son of a Man. The identification with Jesus is, however, in most texts clear, and in some texts even explicit e.g., Mark 2:10-11 "But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins. So he said to the man, I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” and Mark; 8:31 "He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again."

So for someone who believes the Bible, Jesus said three times that he will return. Whether that was truly said (with divine knowledge) or made up by him or the authors, is another story.

The Baha'is have other problems. One that I argue about with them is their belief that Jesus didn't come back to life physically. Now, for me, I'm not arguing if it happened or not... I'm arguing whether or not the gospel writers make the claim that it did happen. And I think they did.

The strongest one is where the writer has Jesus has one of the disciples touch him, and Jesus tells him that he has flesh and bone and is not a ghost. Plus, in Acts it says that Jesus showed himself to be alive by many proofs. Yet... Baha'is say "no." That the resurrection was symbolic. And that the physical body of Jesus died and only his spirit rose.

Another problem for them... is that they don't only have to make it so Jesus, himself, doesn't return, but they have to explain how Kalki from the beliefs of some of the Hindu sects and the Maitreya from some of the Buddhists sects, is also their prophet, Baha'u'llah. It's not that clear... And it takes some very creative interpreting to get their guy to be the fulfillment of those prophecies.

They, naturally, think the interpretations make perfect sense, and it is obvious that their prophet is the guy.

But I think it is obvious that they do what they have to do to the Bible, to the NT, to any Scriptures to make their prophet fulfill what he needs to fulfill to be the guy... the return of the promised one, not only of Christianity, but of any and all religions.

But, absolutely for sure, it is critical for Baha'is not to have Jesus returning. He has to be dead and gone and a thing of the past.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet, Quran says for Mohammad (s) to say he does not claim to be an Angel. Same with Nuh (a) saying it "I do not say I am an Angel". And many places showing disbelievers are contending why not Angels brought down with Mohammad (s) and replies.

Why would Mohammad be an Angel? He was a Messenger of God.

 

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Why would Mohammad be an Angel? He was a Messenger of God.

Well if he was a saintly human, per your definition, he would be an Angel. Besides your Prophet elsewhere said, in terms of God's Angels it refers to God's chosen as in Prophet Messengers and Imams.

 

[Trailblazer]

You would know through miracles he provides.

How many people would be able to witness these miracles?

 

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How many people would be able to witness these miracles?

Isa (a) is not the only one, Elyas (a), Idris (a) and Khidr (a) are alive as well. I believe consistency wise, every Ahlulbayt has at least one baqee (remaining one), and so I believe the 313 are previous guides and messengers coming back to help the Mahdi (a).

 

[Trailblazer]

Which is an impossible interpretation according to many verses about it in the Quran. For example, it saying when it occurs, there will be no denial of it's occurrence. Meaning everyone would acknowledge it.

I don't know what verses say that, but it could be how you are interpreting it.
You also need to be realistic. Of course there will be denial and not everyone would believe if Jesus returned, at least not right away.

Baha'u'llah wrote that eventually everyone will recognize who He was, but that won't happen for a very long time.

"Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 246-249

reference.bahai.org

 

[Sand Dancer]

This question is for non-believers of the Christian faith. All Christians believe that Christ will return. When you hear them say this what do you think it really means?

To me it's when the Kingdom of God is the way of the world. Heaven on earth.

 

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I don't know what verses say that, but it could be how you are interpreting it.

Verse 2 of Surah Waqia: لَيْسَ لِوَقْعَتِهَا كَاذِبَةٌ

There are many verses saying similar things. But here it's clear there is no regarding it coming to pass a denial.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you disregard the Gospels, claiming that the writers may have written whatever they believed, even in Mark 8:31 where Jesus appears to say it himself... I don't completely disagree with you, but then what makes you think that the gospel of John which was by far the last written, contains any truth, and that the author didn't write whatever he believed?

Yes, I disregard some of what is in the Gospels, as I think that the writers may have written whatever they believed or hoped for.

I have more confidence in certain chapters in the Gospel of John since it is more closely aligned with what I believe as a Baha'i.

 

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There's also verse 42:47 which says similar.

 

[Trailblazer]

To me it's when the Kingdom of God is the way of the world. Heaven on earth.

How do you think that will come to pass and how long do you think it will take?

 

[Spice]

How do you think that will come to pass and how long do you think it will take?

Ineffable.

 

[Sand Dancer]

How do you think that will come to pass and how long do you think it will take?

Sadly, I think it's gonna take a while. We seem to be spiritually regressing. I hope people will humble themselves and be servants, and that others will notice that and want to take part.

 

[Trailblazer]

But, absolutely for sure, it is critical for Baha'is not to have Jesus returning. He has to be dead and gone and a thing of the past.

Baha'is don't need to worry about Jesus returning since He is never going to return.

All Christians have is a belief, a hope, but it is a false hope since Jesus clearly said He was never going to return to this world, period.
Not only that, but there is not one verse in the NT where Jesus says that He is going to return.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

[Ajax]

It doesn't matter what verses you throw at Baha'is, especially this Baha'i. For them, it can't be the same, physical Jesus coming back. Their whole religion depends on their prophet, Baha'u'llah, being the return of Christ.

But I think it is ridiculous for any Baha'i to claim that any verses in the gospels that imply that Jesus himself said he'd never come back should be taken literally. Their whole thing is to make verses in the Bible and NT symbolic.

But even when the language of the NT is taken even by Christians to be symbolic, it still seems to be talking about Jesus. Like in Revelation... it is the "Lamb" that opens the scroll. It is the "Lamb" that returns. As far as I know, the Baha'is never attempt to refer to Baha'u'llah as being this "Lamb". At best, some try and claim that the "Lamb that was slain" is their other prophet, the Bab.

But it's just words written down by the followers of Jesus. Even when the gospel writers say they are quoting Jesus, it's just them claiming that is what he said. So, why and how could a Baha'i possibly, then try to claim those were the real and exact words of Jesus?

But then, do Christians or Muslims have anything better? It all ends up depending on what a person wants to believe. Christians and Muslims say Jesus will return. Baha'is say that he won't, but they say the "Christ" spirit will return and has returned.

All theists believe according to their own preferences. Only one or none could be correct.