the right religion

[1robin]

Hey I know this is digging up a really really old post but I wanted to respond.

Dig away.

I am not necessarily defending "my God" directly. I am offering what seems to me a logical explanation for why people of widely varying beliefs and religions have similar mystical experiences. I believe God will work to help his sincere children seeking light and truth wherever they are.

Since this was so long ago I am using this post alone for context and may be leaving something out.

It appears you are a Mormon and they are always hard to quantify because half of what they believe is consistent with my faith and half is not. I believe many commonalities exist in concepts because the subjects covered are identical (origin, destination, salvation, heaven, hell, eternity, God, angels, miracles, etc...). Every theory will have very common claims, but that in no way makes them all from a divine source. I believe the God given moral conscience is a commonality but the God that gave it is denied more than accepted. However religious experience is not always the same. No other major religion I am aware of even offers nor demands every follower experience God in order to become a member of the faith. The Christian religion contains almost all of those that would claim to have experienced God or been in his presence. I have debated long enough and asked enough other faiths to be certain that almost no one in them claims to have experienced God directly. I have met one Muslim out of hundreds that claimed it, no practitioners of Judaism, no Baha'i, Hindus always know of a Guru in the top of a tree or in a cave that is "enlightened" but you can never talk with them, etc.... Christianity is composed of 100% of those that have been in God's presence. Some who claim to be Christians have not and are there for not Christians, but the billions of actual Christians have experienced Christ directly as John says:

Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]
John 3 - Jesus Teaches Nicodemus - Now there was - Bible Gateway

Those few verses separate Christianity from all other faiths.

As for the God I worship, I worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of heaven and earth, the father of us all. I don't understand very much about him. But what I DO understand is incredible! Why do I believe he exists? Because I have to! There is no other explanation for events and experiences in my life. I am as sure that he exists as I am sure that I exist. I learned about him from scriptures and words of prophets. I tested the truths taught to me. I experienced the results first hand. And now he blesses me every day of my life. And I seek ever to learn more about him and his ways. "For my ways are not your ways neither my thoughts your thoughts. For as the heaven is above the earth so my ways are above your ways and my thoughts your thoughts."

My goal is to live in such a way that I will be able to defend Jesus Christ and expound his gospel. He is my hero and my best friend.

Those are very fine goals. The issue is whether you are doing these things correctly. As I said LDS folks are complex to riddle out. I believe an LDS member can be every bit as saved as any Christian but I do not think Mormonism adds anything to Christianity. IMO it is a false doctrine but that does not mean that Mormons are not Christians. I will not critique Mormonism too much unless you wish to debate it but I find it completely incompatible with the Bible, history, and logic. I do find Mormons very moral people and I believe many are born again Christians but they are so, in spite of Mormonism, not because of it, IMO. God knows who is on his team and only if on the right team will the plays be properly carried out. So, despite the fact I disagree strongly with Mormonism I do agree with what you have said here. Shalom,

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Dig away.

Since this was so long ago I am using this post alone for context and may be leaving something out.

It appears you are a Mormon and they are always hard to quantify because half of what they believe is consistent with my faith and half is not. I believe many commonalities exist in concepts because the subjects covered are identical (origin, destination, salvation, heaven, hell, eternity, God, angels, miracles, etc...). Every theory will have very common claims, but that in no way makes them all from a divine source. I believe the God given moral conscience is a commonality but the God that gave it is denied more than accepted. However religious experience is not always the same. No other major religion I am aware of even offers nor demands every follower experience God in order to become a member of the faith. The Christian religion contains almost all of those that would claim to have experienced God or been in his presence. I have debated long enough and asked enough other faiths to be certain that almost no one in them claims to have experienced God directly. I have met one Muslim out of hundreds that claimed it, no practitioners of Judaism, no Baha'i, Hindus always know of a Guru in the top of a tree or in a cave that is "enlightened" but you can never talk with them, etc.... Christianity is composed of 100% of those that have been in God's presence. Some who claim to be Christians have not and are there for not Christians, but the billions of actual Christians have experienced Christ directly as John says:

Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]
John 3 - Jesus Teaches Nicodemus - Now there was - Bible Gateway

Those few verses separate Christianity from all other faiths.


Those are very fine goals. The issue is whether you are doing these things correctly. As I said LDS folks are complex to riddle out. I believe an LDS member can be every bit as saved as any Christian but I do not think Mormonism adds anything to Christianity. IMO it is a false doctrine but that does not mean that Mormons are not Christians. I will not critique Mormonism too much unless you wish to debate it but I find it completely incompatible with the Bible, history, and logic. I do find Mormons very moral people and I believe many are born again Christians but they are so, in spite of Mormonism, not because of it, IMO. God knows who is on his team and only if on the right team will the plays be properly carried out. So, despite the fact I disagree strongly with Mormonism I do agree with what you have said here. Shalom,

WOW! I appreciate such an intelligent and respectful response. Obviously you disagree with Mormonism or you would be a Mormon. I'm up for discussing our beliefs in a little more detail but maybe here isn't the correct time or place? Anyway thanks.

 

[Ouroboros]

Christians the only ones teaching rebirth of the spirit and baptism? Don't think so. Mandaeans do too.

 

[1robin]

WOW! I appreciate such an intelligent and respectful response. Obviously you disagree with Mormonism or you would be a Mormon. I'm up for discussing our beliefs in a little more detail but maybe here isn't the correct time or place? Anyway thanks.

That is fine, just let me know. Shalom.

 

[1robin]

Christians the only ones teaching rebirth of the spirit and baptism? Don't think so. Mandaeans do too.

I said of the major faiths, not of all. There are literally tens of thousands of faiths and of course most make exclusive claims, so not more than one can be right. It is beyond my or anyone's capacity to know what is true of each one. However it is most likely that the ones that have the largest congregations contain the most evidence. I debate the most likely not the totality. It is impossible.

Here was my statement;

No other major religion I am aware of even offers nor demands every follower experience God in order to become a member of the faith. The Christian religion contains almost all of those that would claim to have experienced God or been in his presence.

Does that clear up your contention?

 

[Ouroboros]

Does that clear up your contention?

Except for "Those few verses separate Christianity from all other faiths."

That's what I referred to. Sure, some exactly phrased words in a specific sequence are unique to that exact verse in just that book that belongs to Christianity, but the idea behind those words in those verses are not unique to Christianity. So if you're picky and only mean the sequence of letters and words, then every religion is unique and separate itself from every other religion because every religious book has a unique set of sequence of letters in some unique way, but the ideas and thoughts of rebirth is not something that separates Christianity from all other faiths, if that's what you originally intended to refer to in that comment.

By the way, I also consider Zoroastrians idea of cleansing through fire to be symbolism of spiritual rebirth for the person. It might not be in your specific chosen English words, but the idea is still very similar. God giving you or cleansing your inner being.

I think John the Baptist also had this idea. And probably many others too. Most mystery religions involving initiation might suggest this thinking as well, freemason comes to mind.

 

[1robin]

Except for "Those few verses separate Christianity from all other faiths."

That's what I referred to. Sure, some exactly phrased words in a specific sequence are unique to that exact verse in just that book that belongs to Christianity, but the idea behind those words in those verses are not unique to Christianity. So if you're picky and only mean the sequence of letters and words, then every religion is unique and separate itself from every other religion because every religious book has a unique set of sequence of letters in some unique way, but the ideas and thoughts of rebirth is not something that separates Christianity from all other faiths, if that's what you originally intended to refer to in that comment.

By the way, I also consider Zoroastrians idea of cleansing through fire to be symbolism of spiritual rebirth for the person. It might not be in your specific chosen English words, but the idea is still very similar. God giving you or cleansing your inner being.

I think John the Baptist also had this idea. And probably many others too. Most mystery religions involving initiation might suggest this thinking as well, freemason comes to mind.

I have no really been discussing a single verse or group of them. The main point is there are billions of Christians who will testify to the claim, they experience the presence of God. Not a single actual Christian got to be that way without it. Judaism does not offer this, Islam certainly does not offer this, Hinduism only offers it to a select few Gurus, Baha'i does not offer this universally, and neither does Buddhism.


Now if you wish to pick some relatively obscure religions and challenge what I claimed then pick your best one and we can investigate, but my claim only concerned the major faiths and they do not offer what Christianity does nor contain a meaningful fraction of adherents that make the claim. It is beyond simple verses it is claimed experience. Anyway pick your best and we can compare.

 

[Benoni]

The right religion is no religion. Who did Jesus get upset with but the religious of his day.

 

[Muffled]

That's how you see it, but its not the way I see it, and that's great, that's how it should be.

I don't believe that. I believe things should be seen correctly. For instance if the sun comes up and I say it is a bright day but you say it is a dark day. I believe it is due to you not seeing correctly as if you had a black bag over your head to block out the light.

I believe it would be useful for you to examine how you see things and assess whether it is logical to see things that way.

I am going to give a parable so you can see what I mean. A man hires a guide who knows where the bridges are to cross the river but the guide has not been there in a long time and the bridge no longer exists. So the man says to himself, there are no bridges because I don't see any and teh guide is not dependable. Another man hires the same guide and gets the same results but he can see that there must be a bridge because the guide knew of one, so he goes back and hires a new guide who has been guiding more recently and that guide leads him to a bridge one half mile up-river from the old one.

I believe the moral of the story is that the old ways have good concepts even if some things have changed but the new way (Jesus) is a correct guide because He always has current information.

 

[1robin]

The right religion is no religion. Who did Jesus get upset with but the religious of his day.

That is completely false. He got upset with the misuse of religious authority. He was mad at religion's abuse not it's use. It is impossible that not X is the best X. You are not just incorrect it is impossible that you could ever be correct.

 

[Muffled]

I said:

"You cannot logically claim that not any Christians who where raised in South Korea would have been skeptics if they had been raised in the U.S."

Do you agree with that?

I definitely disagree. I believe the US now encourages skepticism but that may not yet have percolated into South Korea.

 

[Muffled]

Yes, by implication. The Bible says that God is good, and its implies that he is fair, and moral. You cannot logically claim that not any Christians who where raised in South Korea would have been skeptics if they had been raised in the U.S. No good, fair, and moral God would destroy anyone after they died who rejected Christianity if they had lived in one place, and would have accepted it if they had lived in another place. So, by implication, the God of the Bible does not exist.

I believe you are implying knowledge that you do not have.

God has made it quite clear that the gospel will be preached to everyone. The person is responsible for believing God despite whatever traditions he was brought up in.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

there r many religion in the world, but surly there r only one right religion, but how could we reach the right believe, the right path?

The answer to that is within our own heart/soul. It's what we feel inside and how we identify with that feeling.

There's no right/wrong religion or path. I'd like to think that all paths lead to the same destination...eventually.

What is the 'right' belief/path for me, is only for me. If there are others walking on the same path, it is only for them.

Even within my own school/branch of Hinduism, while we are all worshiping the same God and reading the same texts, approaches can still vary widely from one student to the next. That's just how it is.

Sure, there will be some who may disagree with what I am doing because it's 'not the way it should be done according to a certain scripture or a certain saint who wrote it', but that is what they believe. It doesn't make what I do/believe in any less important or relevant.

When one finds their place...when they have discovered the love of their chosen deity/aspect/God, they become firm and resolute in their Faith (whatever Faith that is). When this love pervades your whole being, whatever others say/do/worship just doesn't matter anymore....as long as you just continue doing whatever it is you are doing because it's obviously working...

Just follow your heart...but that's not to say your mind isn't important either, but don't be too critical or judgmental about things you experience...they aren't called 'experiences' for nothing.

 

[Benoni]

The answer to that is within our own heart/soul. It's what we feel inside and how we identify with that feeling.

There's no right/wrong religion or path. I'd like to think that all paths lead to the same destination...eventually.

What is the 'right' belief/path for me, is only for me. If there are others walking on the same path, it is only for them.

Even within my own school/branch of Hinduism, while we are all worshiping the same God and reading the same texts, approaches can still vary widely from one student to the next. That's just how it is.

Just follow your heart...but that's not to say your mind isn't important either, but don't be too critical or judgmental about things you experience...they aren't called 'experiences' for nothing.

Sure, there will be some who may disagree with what I am doing because it's 'not the way it should be done according to a certain scripture or a certain saint who wrote it', but that is what they believe. It doesn't make what I do/believe in any less important or relevant.

When one finds their place...when they have discovered the love of their chosen deity/aspect/God, they become firm and resolute in their Faith (whatever Faith that is). When this love pervades your whole being, whatever others say/do/worship just doesn't matter anymore....as long as you just continue doing whatever it is you are doing because it's obviously working...

I do not believe there is many paths/abobes BUT I believe Jesus is the way and the truth. In God's timing this all will be revealed and opened to all of us; but not now.


In my Fathers house are many mansions; or Greek abiding place. All people have a different abiding place then me. My place is not to condemn that abiding place but to seek, ask and knock to know God in a deeper abiding place that I am now. If God has not called you in another abiding place/spiritual room/spiritual plane/deeper understanding then that is all you can understand. Many are shallow, superficial, and religious or where ever God has placed them; you cannot change that; only God’s spirit has that power to draw all men to Himself.

I do agree we should follow our spirit with in us. But I also believe their is a way and mans religious beliefs prevent us from seeing.


Matt 7:13-15 13 is not speaking to sinners, God’s Word is written to believers because the world could careless what God’s Word says, for they are dead in trespasses and sin.

Matt 7:13-15 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. KJV

A narrow way is your approach to God’s Word with no, I mean no preconceived bias. There is no room for your religious baggage, it is far too narrow. Men follow their false prophets in other words: religion, creeds, dogmas, Popes, pastors and orthodoxy; and reject the Christ with in us all.

 

[psychoslice]

I don't believe that. I believe things should be seen correctly. For instance if the sun comes up and I say it is a bright day but you say it is a dark day. I believe it is due to you not seeing correctly as if you had a black bag over your head to block out the light.

I believe it would be useful for you to examine how you see things and assess whether it is logical to see things that way.

I am going to give a parable so you can see what I mean. A man hires a guide who knows where the bridges are to cross the river but the guide has not been there in a long time and the bridge no longer exists. So the man says to himself, there are no bridges because I don't see any and teh guide is not dependable. Another man hires the same guide and gets the same results but he can see that there must be a bridge because the guide knew of one, so he goes back and hires a new guide who has been guiding more recently and that guide leads him to a bridge one half mile up-river from the old one.

I believe the moral of the story is that the old ways have good concepts even if some things have changed but the new way (Jesus) is a correct guide because He always has current information.

Yes a good parable, but Jesus maybe the current guide for that time, but he is not now, also what Jesus said can be taken in many ways, its how you see what he supposedly said. There is not just one bridge, there are many, don't cling to just one bridge, there are new bridges made every day, I have made mine, and you must make yours.

 

[Ingledsva]

I do agree we should follow our spirit with in us. But I also believe their is a way and mans religious beliefs prevent us from seeing.

Yet you try to push "your version" of one of those man-made religions onto other people.



*

 

[Benoni]

Yet you try to push "your version" of one of those man-made religions onto other people.



*

No I do not. I give you scripture and you try to push your opionion. If I am wrong prove it with God's Word.

 

[Ingledsva]

I do agree we should follow our spirit with in us. But I also believe their is a way and mans religious beliefs prevent us from seeing.

Yet you try to push "your version" of one of those man-made religions onto other people.

No I do not. I give you scripture and you try to push your opionion. If I am wrong prove it with God's Word.

You don't seem to understand, or be able to answer, simple questions from people.

YOU yourself said MAN'S RELIGIOUS BELIEFS - PREVENT - us from seeing.

When I point out that YOU - too - are pushing - YOUR VERSION - of a MAN MADE religious belief - -

You foolishly answer with a reply containing the word SCRIPTURE = which is man made religious dogma! And on top of that - man-made dogma - you add your own peculiar Benoni-Man-Made version!


The religions of Abraham are no different then any other MAN-MADE religion.


*

 

[illykitty]

The right belief for me probably isn't right for someone else. And I'm fine with it because I don't have The Truth, as IMO, there's no such thing.

 

[Benoni]

You don't seem to understand, or be able to answer, simple questions from people.

YOU yourself said MAN'S RELIGIOUS BELIEFS - PREVENT - us from seeing.

When I point out that YOU - too - are pushing - YOUR VERSION - of a MAN MADE religious belief - -

You foolishly answer with a reply containing the word SCRIPTURE = which is man made religious dogma! And on top of that - man-made dogma - you add your own peculiar Benoni-Man-Made version!


The religions of Abraham are no different then any other MAN-MADE religion.


*

If you do not believe in God's Word then you really do not have anything worth while to say what is truth about God's Word. I am speaking to believers who say they believe something but cannot back it up with God's Word. If that Benoni's version then so be it. At least my foundation is God's Word

What is your foundation? Self. Go for it. You are so passionate about something you could careless about.