the right religion

[tarekabdo12]

especially because other religions can also be linked with scientific findings.

how? I don't know one personally

The other fact is that Muslims do not believe in that religion because of those links with scientific findings. Faith is still the grounding.

I have never seen something think this way; to think that Islam is not the true religion as it's scientific findings, this appears a bit irrational

 

[Riverwolf]

how? I don't know one personally

Ours. Just as Islam claims to have scientific miracles in its holy text, so do some Hindus claim there are scientific miracles in the Vedas:

Miracles of Veda and Purana

Not to mention, there are those (mind you, I'm not one of them; I'm just saying) that claim the civilizations described in the Ramayana and Mahabharata had technology at least as advanced as modern technology, such as flight and even nuclear weapons.

Even disregarding these, Hindu Scriptures are WAY ahead of their time in terms of religious philosophy, with universalist ideas, pantheist and panentheist theologies, etc.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have never seen something think this way; to think that Islam is not the true religion as it's scientific findings, this appears a bit irrational

No, it's more like thinking that the clouds weren't actually designed by an artist, despite the fact that your friend insists that a particular cloud really, really looks like an elephant.

 

[atanu]

That's impossible. There's no such thing as different paths to one God. That is confusion. It only stand to reason that you believe in multiple Gods. So what is the nature of your God, Riverwolf?

Or you may be confused that the path is the goal?

(If your God is all powerful and compassionate then why should he create many paths to confuse people and then punish those who do not take the path taken by Adonis or tarekabdo?)

 

[Brahmin010]

Do not make the mistake of thinking there is only one way to God. This type of religious egoism has been the cause or reason for many wars since the dawn of man. God is not so small that he only expresses himself to one people, one sacred text or one historical epoch.

If you people actually read some religious history, you'd understand that religions are not born out of thin air. Every religion is a gradual unfolding, incorporating many aspects of cultural and religious ideas specific to the time and place.

Take for the example the Hindu and Buddhist religions. They are both offshoots of the ancient and venerable Vedic philosophy of the Indians. Look at the Abrahamic religions, it is obvious that both Christianity and Islam derive it's fundamental monotheistic teachings from it. Yet each adherent to those religions will believe with honest conviction that their religion is the only right way to God. It is also interesting to note that it is usually the adherents of the Abrahamic religions that are so fervently inclined to defend their religion, even to the death of themselves or others.

The best and most noble religious paths are those that teach tolerance, peace and compassion for all living things.

It is incredibly foolish, and utterly rude to impose your religion on anyone, for that would amount to being slaves. Obedience by fear is for slaves and fools. The truly noble spirits will always seek God and find him everywhere, in everything and in everyone. God will acknowledge and bless those who walk the narrow, dark and harsh paths to his abode. For those who believe him our of ignorance, laziness or fear, he will bless you accordingly to your cup.

Keep your so called knowledge to yourself, for what you think is great knowledge here is laughable to the almighty.

God is more wiser, more loving, more compassionate and more powerful than you can conceive in your feeble 3 dimensional intellect. We are not meant to truly know God, at least not here, to do this we must leave this miserable world.

Point is don't think you know the right path to God. For you know nothing. God works in mysterious ways, ways we not are meant to know. Everyone who has found there path is right. Please, let's not judge. That is the domain of God alone.

Peace and Compassion to you all.

 

[Riverwolf]

Please, let's not judge. That is the domain of God alone.

Uh... aren't the statements "Obedience by fear is for slaves and fools", "for what you think is great knowledge here is laughable to the almighty.", and "Point is don't think you know the right path to God. For you know nothing." judgments?

 

[rusra02]

Rusra, I would like to know, in your opinion, how does the Bible prove its divinity?

I think Jesus pretty much answered the question of how you can tell followers of truth: "Wherefore, by their fruits ye shall know them."

1. The Bible is a book of accurate prophecy. It consistently and accurately foretells future events.
2. The Bible's internal harmony. Though written by over 40 men over 1600 years, it is consistent and harmonious throughout.
3. The very fact it has survived and thrived despite centuries of opposition and hatred.
4. It is the best selling, most widely distributed book of all time.
5. It is accurate history, and in harmony with proven science.
6. Many archeological discoveries have confirmed the Bible's account.
7. It has made remarkable changes for the better in people who have actually followed it's teachings, in constrast with many who only pay lip-service to being 'Christians'.
8. It reveals God's appealing and loving personality, explains why we suffer at present, and give a real hope for the future.

The first reason is powerful enough to prove the Bible is not a work of men, but of the one true God. Taken together, the evidence for the Bible's divine authorship is overwhelming.

Jesus believed the Scriptures and quoted from them extensively (what is today commonly called the old testament or Hebrew scriptures).

 

[sojourner]

1. The Bible is a book of accurate prophecy. It consistently and accurately foretells future events.
2. The Bible's internal harmony. Though written by over 40 men over 1600 years, it is consistent and harmonious throughout.
3. The very fact it has survived and thrived despite centuries of opposition and hatred.
4. It is the best selling, most widely distributed book of all time.
5. It is accurate history, and in harmony with proven science.
6. Many archeological discoveries have confirmed the Bible's account.
7. It has made remarkable changes for the better in people who have actually followed it's teachings, in constrast with many who only pay lip-service to being 'Christians'.
8. It reveals God's appealing and loving personality, explains why we suffer at present, and give a real hope for the future.

The first reason is powerful enough to prove the Bible is not a work of men, but of the one true God. Taken together, the evidence for the Bible's divine authorship is overwhelming.

Jesus believed the Scriptures and quoted from them extensively (what is today commonly called the old testament or Hebrew scriptures).

...And other people stick their heads in the sand when it comes to the Bible...

 

[Muffled]

i just want to edit something here, Mohamed wasn't the author of the Quran, he's just a messenger carry a message from the god (the Quran) to all the mankind (the receivers of the message)



so as you believe in that, why you are not a muslim?

He has the words and puts them in a book. That makes him the author even if he is ghost writing.

I suppose you are asking why I don't belong to the Islamic religion. The answer is that I belong to Jesus and He does not send me in that direction.

 

[Muffled]

This is one of the most frightening ideas I've ever read. Just make sure you let God change these peoples minds himself and stay out of it.

I am the voice of God and He rarely stays out of it. Perhaps you could explain what is so frightening.

 

[Muffled]

God wants us to follow the religion that is right for us to follow. Many people -- many religions.

Although there is some truth to this it does not mean that the religion Jesus has us follow is the right religion. Jesus has sent me to a Christian Science church, a Presbyterian church and a Friend's Meeting. In each case he had a purpose for doing so and sometimes that was to learn a particular thing that I wouldn't find in other relgions. In Christian Science I learned about mind over matter (easier said than done); in the Presbyterian church I learned about Calvinism; in the Friend's meeting I learn how to meditate. However both Christian Scientists and Friends are breaking a direct commandment of Jesus to practice communion and the Presbyterians are wrong about election.

 

[islam abduallah]

He has the words and puts them in a book. That makes him the author even if he is ghost writing.

I suppose you are asking why I don't belong to the Islamic religion. The answer is that I belong to Jesus and He does not send me in that direction.

you said before that he's a messenger from god and now you said it's from ghost, i couldn't understand you well

also your words about the jesus revealed that you believe that you are forced to do any thing and the jesus directs you to do without your will, is my understanding right?

 

[islam abduallah]

the assumption of creation is an assumption that I am not willing to make

my dear even if you are wrong, if you find that you are wrong, won't you change your way?

In my mind there is no creation only change.

change means that there was something at first and then it changed to another thing? but our universe wasn't like that and even if it was how changes it?

ultimately if there were creation of something the prior state to creation would have to be a state that is not explainable by existence.

no, it would

example: if nothingness existed existence would still exist

but not in the same place, example i can absorp the air from the bottle through a vaccuum pump, so i can say what inside it is nothingness but i can't say that the air still exisiting in it, you can't gather between them at the same moment at the same place for the same thing , it's impossible

 

[islam abduallah]

Perhaps no religion is the right or true religion. Perhaps there is truth and all religions are simply grasping at part of it.

to say that there's no right religion, so we should study all of them and judge them fairly, if we found errors, contradictions, unbelievable things, and we discussed with the believers about that doubts and we couldn't find a making sense answer so we can say that all of them are wrong, do you do that?

I saw your comment earlier, abduallah, that our way of knowing truth is through the use of our own mind. I have not read through the responses as this is a very long thread now. But can you explain what you mean by using your mind? How do you use your mind to know that your religion is the true religion?

look dear, what's the difference between Mankind and other animals, why we got that mind which able to build this civilizations, technology, laws,..?
the difference is the mind, the god created the mind for us to know him to follow his path, to be his successive authority on the earth, by this smart minds we can reach the truth, i'll tell you how
for example muslims used to claim that the quran is the miracle of miracles, a book written since 1432 years not changed till now, you can't find 2 copies from it (i mean arabic quran not it's translations) his author challenged the world since 1400 years to get a book like it or even a chapter but till now we couldn't have, many other things Muslims used to claim about Quran, i'm usually said every book is comptent enough to defend amd talk about itself, so you can find the quran and see what muslims claim is right or wrong, is it really deserved to be the word of god or not? also you can do the same with gospel and torah, using your mind to judge those books and others fairly
the problem which most of people face during the looking for the truth is the desires, our desires usually misguide us, for example people who likes the wine, even if you prove to them that it's harmful and because of that the god of islam, judaism prohibited it, they will not accept the religion even if it made sense with them because of the desires, they don't want to give up that, i don't say that all people like that but many of them, and the other mistake i noticed that people judge the message from it's chaff not it's cor, they focus into the branches and chaff of the religion and don't want to look at the core, although that the right that the chaff of any religion is depndent on the core, for example Jews don't eat cheeseburger because it's not allowed for them to eat milk with meat, for the first while it's illogical, but if you talk to a jew he will tell you, that i'm not eating because it's sensible to me, because i'd like to not oppose the god's word, he first satisifed that torah is the last word of god and gospel and quran both are mistaken and then he applies the message on himself, do you get that both points?

It is not that I disagree, but that you may mean something different to what I as a Hindu would mean when saying this. For example, the Vedic scriptures inform us on how to know truth, actually know, not just have faith, and gives us methods to come to know God and Self fully

.
i think we have the same way to know the truth

 

[Riverwolf]

to say that there's no right religion, so we should study all of them and judge them fairly, if we found errors, contradictions, unbelievable things, and we discussed with the believers about that doubts and we couldn't find a making sense answer so we can say that all of them are wrong, do you do that?

That's not the only thing one can do.

The other thing is to just pick the path you like the best. I like Shaivite Hinduism best, so I'm a Shaivite Hindu. It has its flaws, like all religions, but for me, those flaws do not outweigh its values, as they may for others. I don't want to be an atheist, so I'm not.

 

[islam abduallah]

where do you think this writing comes from? It comes from the bible.

first sorry of my late reply
second, yes it comes from the bible, but it doesn't talk about it specially, did the word goespel or torah mentioned in it? no

in english that 'collection' is called the 'bible' and its the bible that the puts an obligation on all muslims to exercise faith in...it says at Al-Baqarah [2]:285 “Each one (of them) [the men of faith] believeth in God, His angels, His books, and His apostles.” The Qur’ān also speaks about the faithful “who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.” at Al-Baqarah [2]:4
well, i like to talk a lot about quran, yes the Quran guided us to beliee that the god revealed a book to jesus and to moses, david, .. and we believe in that, but the quran guided us also to believe that the existing books are already distorted by people, so it;s not still the word of god Allah said "Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?, 2:75 and said "So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn 2:79, and there are many verses which said that the gospel and torah are distorted and they are not more the word that Allah had revealed to moses or Jesus peace up on both

The bible are Gods books, they preceded the Qur’ān, which mentions them often and emphasizes that they contain God’s guidance. We read at Āl ‘Imrān [3]:3, 4, NJD: “He has revealed to you the Book with the truth, confirming the scriptures which preceded it; for He has already revealed the Torah and the Gospel [Injīl in Arabic] for the guidance of men.”

i don't deny the gospel and torah were revealed by the god, but it's distorted, and also of that distortion it's still able to guide people to islam and i'll show that later

 

[islam abduallah]

So what you are actually dismissing, is the writings of the prophets and Moses. Now if you dismiss their writings, then you are in effect dismissing the one who directed them to write....that one is God... and you are ignoring your own Quran which tells muslims to refer to the bible, “If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee.”—Yūnus [10]:94.
Am I wrong to state this? And If I am wrong, then why does the Quran speak so highly of the bible, but not muslims?

yes you are wrong, again allah had revealed the three books, Torah, gospel and quran, torah distorted so allah or the god as you like to call sent the jesus , the it distorted so we got the quran, it's simple i couldn't understand how you misunderstand that?
regarding to the verse you mentioned, it's not a right translation, this verse was talking to Mohamed himself at the begining of the message, the people of macca were unbelievfers, they don't have a message before so they deny the prophecy of mohamed, which makes him frustrated, so allah told him "So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.And never be of those who deny the signs of Allah and [thus] be among the losers" it's not asking to correct the message it's to ask is the god used to send messengers or not? to know the fact of revealtion
i prefer usually to complete the verses, as extracting usually distort the meaning, so the god told him if what the people of makka said get doubts in you ask jews and christians were there prophets and revealtion from the god before or not?
i\'ll tell you the story of the begining of the revealtion, when the holy spirit came to mohamed by the first verse, mohamed run away and he didn't know who is that, and he went to a christian man one of his kin he was the only christian in makka who told him this is the holy spirit who comes to moses and believed i mhamed as a prophet,
do you get my point?
again how the god ask him to believe in the other books and then he told him "The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters, And never be of those who deny the signs of Allah and [thus] be among the losers"
you misunderstand the verse because you don't read it completly

our sensibilities are not Gods. remember that when he created Adam and Eve, he did not create them with clothing... so nudity and sex is not an issue for God... It is only an issue for us because we are imperfect and view such matters imperfectly.

If we truly respected our bodies in the way God does, we would not feel ashamed of them, nor would we look at them in a negative way and lust for them. imperfect desire is the only reason why we hide ourselves...we are ashamed of our own feelings and those feelings are a result of our sinfulness.

i think the god knows well that we are imperfect, and we are not like him and we will feel shame and shy if we read that and we will not be able to read it loudly, isn't he know all of that?

When a man and woman can look at each other as equals, and not in a sexually perverse way, then we will not need to hide ourselves from each other. Adam and Eve did not need to hide themselves until after they sinned...from that point on they were perverted. But God is not perverted. That is why he can openly express male and female sexuality without feeling ashamed of it. He created it and called it 'very good'... so if we have distorted Gods good things, that is our own blemish...not Gods.

the god had revealed to us after the sin of eve and adam, and heknows well that we are sinner and he allows us to marry, do you imagine marriage without sex? he created males and femals for that to discourse and then get children and then the life will continue and he upt enjoyment in that relation to like it to get babies and the mankind continue?, were the god forgot that while revealing that? didn't he know what he had created?

Well those rules were only directed to Jews under the mosaic law covenant. We understand that when the womb was open, it was bringing forth more sinful people into the world. It is really Gods feeling toward sin that made the menstruation 'unclean'

i know that christians are not asking to do that, i know that well, but the god asked the believers from moses era to jesus to do that, right? in your opinion according to these verses what the women should do to avoid miscleaning anything, she can't do anything except flying to avoid touching anything, it's illogical orders and it's a pure insult for women

All sinful mankind, men and women, are unclean in Gods eyes.

totally disagree,

And this law about menstruation was to highlight that sin. Gods command to Adam and Eve was to 'go forth and multiply'...but they didnt begin to do that until after they had sinned. So the womb of mankind was corrupted and every child born came forth in an imperfect and unclean state. The law highlighted the need for a savior from the unclean state.

ok, i agree that the blood is unclean but the women itself no, no

 

[islam abduallah]

One suggestion as to how they may be counted is as follows: By taking Abraham to David, 14 names, then using David as the starting name for the second 14, with Josiah as the last.

wrong, because it's a way from the way of mentioning the generations in matthew, but for honesty it could be so I’ll accept your suggestion,

no, thats not what I said. Matthew would have written his list from available records which were, at that time, located in Jerusalem. What I was saying was that it was not necessary for him to list every name because the jews knew the important names that would prove ones ancestry. We have the example of Ezra the priest, in proving his priestly lineage, at Ezra 7:1-5, omitted several names contained in the listing of the priestly line at 1 Chronicles 6:1-15. So this shows that the Jews knew their ancestry very well and it was not essential to name every single ancestor.

the jews knew but the people after jews like us need to know too if it's important and deserve to be mentioned in a holy book, and again you said that Matthew wrote them through records not a revealtion don't you see that we are saying the same thing? that it contains sopme parts which not the word of god.

God said 'This is my 'son' the beloved' So God approved Jesus as his Son. he was a prophet, but he was MORE then a prophet.

how to be prophet and moer than a prophet in the same time? also don't you believe that all of us are sons of god?

He was originally an angel in heaven who had been given the responsibility to be the one who God would use to save mankind.

agree on the second part, but give me the proof that he was a n angel in the heaven

He is the Messiah, the annointed of God. And Jesus also identified himself as the Messiah by the works that he performed in harmony with prophecy. Jesus raised people from the dead, he cured the sick, he fed the hungry, he walked on water... all these miracles he performed were evidence that he was one God promised to send. And with Gods own verbal declaration, we can be absolutely confident that he was

.
i belieev in all of that but i want to know why he's the mesiah how do you know that? did the god put some description to the Messiah in torah?


Yes, but hopefully you will understand why the Christian position is that women are not required to always were a head covering.

We do not take a lead role, a role assigned to men, in our congregations. So for that reason we have no need to show men our submission to their leadership because we already show our submission by letting them be the leaders.

Christian women respect the headship principle given by the Apostle at 1Corinthians:
11:3 "But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God"

Lets just say the scriptures actually did require women to always wear a headcovering to show our submission to men... then it would require men to also wear a headcovering to show their submission to Christ. And Christ would be required to wear a headcovering to show his submission to God.

haha, surly not the gospel said it's shame for men to cover their heads, and also i believe women don't wear to show their submission to men, but to the god who ordered her to do that, not for men, do the men allow her to enter the paradise, no, she did that for the sake of god not for any other thing
we don't believe like yuo that the head of women are men, both indeed are equal

I dont mean any offense to the muslim headcover, i am only trying to help you see why christians dont wear the same sort of covering under normal circumstances.

don't worry, i understand that well , you are polit to offend me

 

[islam abduallah]

That's not the only thing one can do.

The other thing is to just pick the path you like the best. I like Shaivite Hinduism best, so I'm a Shaivite Hindu. It has its flaws, like all religions, but for me, those flaws do not outweigh its values, as they may for others. I don't want to be an atheist, so I'm not.

oh! dear, it seems that i forgot your question about the four witnesses i'm really sorry, i'll post it today "god willing"

i'm sorry but what you said is to follow what yuo like is what i called is to follow the desire, i myself i don't like that and i disagree with that, if i found flaws in my religion i think i have to change it, it's my opinion, don't feel offensive.

 

[Madhuri]

to say that there's no right religion, so we should study all of them and judge them fairly, if we found errors, contradictions, unbelievable things, and we discussed with the believers about that doubts and we couldn't find a making sense answer so we can say that all of them are wrong, do you do that?

What I actually think is that there is a truth, and everyone interprets it differently. The whole truth may (hypothetically) be present within every religion, but individuals only grasp some of that truth, not having the knowledge or experience to see the whole truth. This is why sometimes I think that the desire to seek and know truth is more valuable than what religion we claim to belong to. For if we are always seeking, then we are always learning and coming closer to understanding reality.

look dear, what's the difference between Mankind and other animals, why we got that mind which able to build this civilizations, technology, laws,..?
the difference is the mind, the god created the mind for us to know him to follow his path, to be his successive authority on the earth, by this smart minds we can reach the truth, i'll tell you how
for example muslims used to claim that the quran is the miracle of miracles, a book written since 1432 years not changed till now, you can't find 2 copies from it (i mean arabic quran not it's translations) his author challenged the world since 1400 years to get a book like it or even a chapter but till now we couldn't have, many other things Muslims used to claim about Quran, i'm usually said every book is comptent enough to defend amd talk about itself, so you can find the quran and see what muslims claim is right or wrong, is it really deserved to be the word of god or not? also you can do the same with gospel and torah, using your mind to judge those books and others fairly
the problem which most of people face during the looking for the truth is the desires, our desires usually misguide us, for example people who likes the wine, even if you prove to them that it's harmful and because of that the god of islam, judaism prohibited it, they will not accept the religion even if it made sense with them because of the desires, they don't want to give up that, i don't say that all people like that but many of them, and the other mistake i noticed that people judge the message from it's chaff not it's cor, they focus into the branches and chaff of the religion and don't want to look at the core, although that the right that the chaff of any religion is depndent on the core, for example Jews don't eat cheeseburger because it's not allowed for them to eat milk with meat, for the first while it's illogical, but if you talk to a jew he will tell you, that i'm not eating because it's sensible to me, because i'd like to not oppose the god's word, he first satisifed that torah is the last word of god and gospel and quran both are mistaken and then he applies the message on himself, do you get that both points?
.
i think we have the same way to know the truth

I agree that many people pick and choose what sounds good to them. But this is my point- many people also follow a religion because it makes sense to them and because it matches their experiences of the world and life. This, for example, is why I consider the Bhagavad Gita to be the essential scripture, the highest wisdom. So I can say that I know my religion is the right religion for the reasons you explain. But most people see the truth in their religion.

It is when we see that our own convictions are no more valid than any other person's convictions that we can begin to question: is there a right religion? Is there a wrong religion? What makes my perception more intelligent than that other person's?

And perhaps we don't find the answers- maybe we can't. It is said that the first sign of real wisdom is admitting you do not know much.

It seems to me that life is about learning and growing and for those who seek to learn and grow, the answers will naturally come. The religion is the vehicle to truth, but the destination is the same no matter which path we take. The only difference between the seeker and non-seeker is that the seeker is open to learning but the non-seeker already believes he has all the answers and therefore closes his mind to anything new.