The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[Muffled]

As with anything concerning Christianity, this is not something everyone is going to agree upon. People are so widespread on what they should be believing that the original 'church' of Christ has fallen apart into over 33.000 different denominations. Basically disagreeing on everything there can be any debate about, from the literal or figurative interpretation of the Bible to the actual role of God.

Religion isn't just a book. Religion is people and most of all it is the culture people create alongside the teaching of other humans and whatever scripture is available which is regarded as somewhat divinely inspired. Culture is the main ingredient of religion. If we move to the USA and float around there for a bit, we'll get the impression from the people there that hell is a place of eternal pain as a form of punishment (Mat.25:46). If we move elsewhere, people will argue that this is a mistranslation into the word 'eternal', which should have been 'for ages upon ages'.

People can interpret the Bible in many ways, and because the translators were also humans, there must have slipped in some personal bias or 'interpretation' if you find that more comfortable. This makes being a Christian a very complicated matter if you'd ask me, and that's not even beginning to consider the actual faith thing.

In the end, people can choose what to believe or believe in whatever they were brought up in. It is no secret that people brought up in India are more likely to become Hindu than Christian, the opposite is true for America. There are so many religions to choose from, from the Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka Kansas USA, to the A of BC in Luzon Visayas Mindanao Phillipines, to the Zulu Jerusalem Church in South Africa. All this diversity brings me to the point where I'd say that religion is a personal thing, people believe what they wish to believe (if they are not indoctrinated) and because the Bible is so flexible, that means any debate on any Christian matter is quite futile.

Concluding: There are those who choose to believe in an eternal hell, and there are those that choose not to believe in hell at all.

There are not 33,000 truths but only one truth. That means there are most likely 33,000 denominations in error.

I do not agree. I have the truth and have no problem reasoning with those who don't.

That is the problem with most people today. God does not grant people the right to believe what they wish. He says "this is the way, walk ye in it".

 

[MurphtheSurf]

I kind of like that post Murph.

Peace.

Thanks mick, the congregation I worship with is one that focus' on Bible scholarship and knowledge rather than the churches that lean on emotional outbursts and ear tickling.

 

[mickiel]

Christians recognize that there is punsihment for unforgiven sin and that final punishment could be Hell, so we warn people not to go there.

I am curious, why is not the punishment Christ went through enough to satisfy God, why do Christians think humans need to be punished for sins already forgiven by Christ death?

Explain that to me.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

.

I do not agree. I have the truth and have no problem reasoning with those who don't.

".

Supreme confidence, or supreme arrogance?

Peace.

 

[OneThatGotAway]

How would you deal with a man whom you've invited to your house as a guest and true friend; and later found out that his twisted desire is to take over your house and slowly destroy you and your family systematically for his sadistic pleasure?

How much time and freedom would you give him to think it over before you say enough?

After he has raped, tortured, and murdered your family, would you give him a second chance with your new home and family?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I am curious, why is not the punishment Christ went through enough to satisfy God, why do Christians think humans need to be punished for sins already forgiven by Christ death?
Explain that to me.
Peace.

Christians or just so-called Christians? According to Romans 6v7 Christians believe that death frees or acquits a person from sins.
[except those of Matt 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6].

Freed or acquitted does not have to mean innocent. Like the governor that pardons a person means the charges no longer stick. So the sin charges no longer stick. In other words, as Romans 6v23 says 'Death' stamps the price tag of sin as: Paid In Full. However, since we can not resurrect oneself or another we need Jesus to do that for us and he will. Acts 24v15.

Since Jesus ransom covers 'many' and not all [Matt 20v28] then the everlasting punishment for the unforgivable sin is being punished with everlasting destruction. Gone forever. Psalm 92v7.
2nd Thess 1v9.

 

[mickiel]

Since Jesus ransom covers 'many' and not all [Matt 20v28] then the everlasting punishment for the unforgivable sin is being punished with everlasting destruction. Gone forever. Psalm 92v7.
2nd Thess 1v9.

In 1Tim.2:6, why are you replacing the word all, and putting the word " Many" in there? The orginal words are " Ransom for All."

Why are you changing this meaning to a limited terminology, is it to fit your theology?

Peace.

 

[th1bill]

Hell is not a matter for our decision. God has inspired, dictated, the scriptures for men and women to learn about the Spirit World, therefore Eternal Hell exists. The reason? God is a Just God and for justice to meted out there are different ends for the actions of men. The odd thing though is that even though God has made the option of Hell possible to be removed from any individuals judgment, they still "choose" to go to Hell. (Romans 10:9-10)

God loves us in spite of the truth that we have turned our backs on Him. (Romans 5:8) When I was a child there were rules that I had to obey. Many of these rules were for my safety and some, when obeyed, made it easier for my mom and dad to love me and during my pre-adult years I broke all of them and for doing so I received justice, preceded by judgment. In much the same manor, God deals with us.

Because every man has sinned against God (Romans 3:10 & 23) we deserve to be judged. Romans 6:23 spells it out. In application it looks like this. When I was still able to work I received a paycheck for my efforts, on the other hand when I would get caught breaking the traffic laws of Texas I would get a ticket and I had to pay a fine for the deed. In the same manor when we go about performing the deeds of sin we are due recompense for our efforts.

The later half of that verse explains the provision God has made for our relief from our due wage however. As taught throughout the Old Testament, sin can be forgiven for the blood of a perfect sacrifice. In our case, God/Jesus paid the debt Himself. All that we "must" do is contained in Romans 10:9&10. So while many claim God to be unfair, I can do no less than to admit that they are correct but not for the reason they use.

Since all men have sinned, if God ws fair He would allow none into Heaven because the wage due us is the eternal, never ending death of eternal Hell. But God loves you so much that He paid your debt and offers it as a gift. All you need do is to open your hand and take possession of it.

 

[Beta]

While not denying the existence of eternal hell-fire some of us see the difference of punishing and punishment.
In the first inst. 'man is mortal' and could not by any stretch of the imagination survive in this eternal-burning hell which was prepared for the devil and his angels - not prepared for man Mat.25v41.
It had to be an eternal fire because the devil and his angels are eternal spirit-creatures. MAN is not a spirit being but flesh and blood and will therefore burn-up when cast into that fire as punishment for unrepentant / unforgiven sins. Being mortal no man will be eternally punished but perish in the fire :no: In my view that is what the Bible teaches

 

[mickiel]

.

Because every man has sinned against God (Romans 3:10 & 23) we deserve to be judged. Romans 6:23 spells it out. In application it looks like this. When I was still able to work I received a paycheck for my efforts, on the other hand when I would get caught breaking the traffic laws of Texas I would get a ticket and I had to pay a fine for the deed. In the same manor when we go about performing the deeds of sin we are due recompense for our efforts.

.

I fail to see the due recompense for a human sinning and unrepentant for what, lets say 70 years of living, then God turns around and gives that human 999 billion, 888trillion, 765 million- times infinity- with no end- eternal punishing. Thats not due recompense, its wicked insanity.

God is not wicked or insane, the belief in eternal hell punishing is whats insane and wicked.

Peace.

 

[Haydaman]

Eternity within itself is eternal suffering, regardless of whether you're in Heaven or Hell, they're one in the same.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

In 1Tim.2:6, why are you replacing the word all, and putting the word " Many" in there? The orginal words are " Ransom for All."
Why are you changing this meaning to a limited terminology, is it to fit your theology?
Peace.

Sorry, my bad. I was not comprehensive enough in my reply.
God wants all to repent and not perish or be destroyed.
2nd Peter 3v9 B

1st John 1v7 says the blood of Christ cleans all of us from sin.
In that sense 1st Tim 2v6 is clear that that Jesus gave his life as a ransom for all. But do all accept Jesus? Because all do not that is why Jesus words at Matthew 20v28 says that Jesus gave his life as a ransom for: "many".
So it is all 'except' for those of Mt 12v32; Heb 6vs4-6; 10vs26,38.

Jesus illustration of Luke [19vs14-27] show Jesus enemies hate him.
Jesus commands at verse 27 is to slay his enemies.
At the minor fulfillment of Matthew chapter 24 at the siege of the year 70 many were slain. At the major fulfillment the words from Jesus mouth will slay those at Armageddon that are hated enemies of his.
see: Isaiah 11vs3,4; Rev. 19vs11,14,15.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

While not denying the existence of eternal hell-fire some of us see the difference of punishing and punishment.
In the first inst. 'man is mortal' and could not by any stretch of the imagination survive in this eternal-burning hell which was prepared for the devil and his angels - not prepared for man Mat.25v41.
It had to be an eternal fire because the devil and his angels are eternal spirit-creatures. MAN is not a spirit being but flesh and blood and will therefore burn-up when cast into that fire as punishment for unrepentant / unforgiven sins. Being mortal no man will be eternally punished but perish in the fire :no: In my view that is what the Bible teaches

Both angels and humans are created mortal.
Their lives depend on obedience to God.
Adam was not offered immortality but eternal life.
The immortal have life from within [ proven faithfulness, not proven unfaithfulness] John 5v26.
Eternal or everlasting life is dependent of obedience to God.

Being an angel [fallen or otherwise] is mortal in that disobedient angels can be destroyed. The first prophecy of Genesis 3v15 Jesus proved to be the 'seed' that will deal Satan a fatal death bruise to his head, and crush Satan under his feet. see: Romans 16v20.

What does Jesus do to Satan at Hebrews 2v14 B ?__________

So the fire of Matt 25v41 is symbolic of destruction.
Satan is a liar [John 8v44] and according to Rev.[21v8] all [unrepentant] liars end up in the lake which means the second death. In others words, Rev [20v14] has the definition of the lake defined as the second death.
Death in perpetual sleep and not wake up.
Death according to Jesus [John 11vs11-14] is being in a deep sleep-like state or conscious of nothing at all as King Solomon wrote at Ecclesiastes 9v5,10.
[Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4; Jeremiah 51v57 B]

So the everlasting punishment of Matt 25v46 is everlasting destruction in second death. 2nd Thess 1v9 equates everlasting punishment with everlasting destruction.

As far as eternal hellfire: Please notice Rev. 20vs13,14. All in hell are 'delivered up' out of hell. Then, it is emptied-out hell, vacant hell, and death that are then thrown into the lake of fire or second death of no returning.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I fail to see the due recompense for a human sinning and unrepentant for what, lets say 70 years of living, then God turns around and gives that human 999 billion, 888trillion, 765 million- times infinity- with no end- eternal punishing. Thats not due recompense, its wicked insanity.
God is not wicked or insane, the belief in eternal hell punishing is whats insane and wicked.
Peace.

Under the Constitution of the Mosaic law justice meant equality.
Foot for foot, tooth for tooth, life for life, etc.

Eternal or everlasting punishment is according to 2nd Thess 1v9 everlasting destruction. Destruction is reserved for Satan [Heb 2v14 b] and those of Matt 12v32; Heb 6vs4-6; 10v26; Psalm 92v7. No future life for those slain by Jesus- Isaiah 11v4; Rev 19vs11,14,15. They do not wake up from their death.
Jeremiah 51v57; but remain in an unconscious state. Ecc 9v5,10.

 

[Azakel]

Eternity within itself is eternal suffering, regardless of whether you're in Heaven or Hell, they're one in the same.

This is your Opinion friend. To me, an Entreaty to myself, or with my goddess would not be Suffering ^_^
But to all there own.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Hell is not a matter for our decision. God has inspired, dictated, the scriptures for men and women to learn about the Spirit World, therefore Eternal Hell exists. The reason? God is a Just God and for justice to meted out there are different ends for the actions of men. The odd thing though is that even though God has made the option of Hell possible to be removed from any individuals judgment, they still "choose" to go to Hell. (Romans 10:9-10)
God loves us in spite of the truth that we have turned our backs on Him. (Romans 5:8) When I was a child there were rules that I had to obey. Many of these rules were for my safety and some, when obeyed, made it easier for my mom and dad to love me and during my pre-adult years I broke all of them and for doing so I received justice, preceded by judgment. In much the same manor, God deals with us.
Because every man has sinned against God (Romans 3:10 & 23) we deserve to be judged. Romans 6:23 spells it out. In application it looks like this. When I was still able to work I received a paycheck for my efforts, on the other hand when I would get caught breaking the traffic laws of Texas I would get a ticket and I had to pay a fine for the deed. In the same manor when we go about performing the deeds of sin we are due recompense for our efforts.
The later half of that verse explains the provision God has made for our relief from our due wage however. As taught throughout the Old Testament, sin can be forgiven for the blood of a perfect sacrifice. In our case, God/Jesus paid the debt Himself. All that we "must" do is contained in Romans 10:9&10. So while many claim God to be unfair, I can do no less than to admit that they are correct but not for the reason they use.
Since all men have sinned, if God ws fair He would allow none into Heaven because the wage due us is the eternal, never ending death of eternal Hell. But God loves you so much that He paid your debt and offers it as a gift. All you need do is to open your hand and take possession of it.

If eternal hell exists then why does Rev 20vs13,14 say that after all those in hell are delivered up out of hell, then emptied-out hell, hell that is void of people, vacant hell is then cast into the lake which means the second death?

Sure we deserve to be judged and Jesus judges in righteousness.
There will be the resurrection of the just and unjust -Acts 24v15.
Since we can't resurrect oneself or another we need Jesus to do that for us.

What is the price tag for sin? Isn't the price we pay for our sins: death?
So that shows the words of Romans 6v7 to be true because Romans 6v7 says the one that is dead is freed or acquitted from sin. So 'death' stamps' the price tag for sin as Paid In Full. That does not make a person innocent but just like a governor that pardons a person means the charges no longer stick.
[The only exception are those of Matt 12v32; Heb 6vs4-6; 10v26.]

Just as Jesus did not remain in hell [Acts 2vs27,31] all in hell will be 'delivered up' according to Rev 20vs13,14, so no one stays in hell [gravedom]. Some are resurrected to heaven, and the rest can be part of the humble meek to inherit the earth as Jesus promised. Psalm 37vs11,29. During Jesus peaceful millennial reign over earth Jesus will also fulfill the promise to Abraham that all families of the earth will be blessed, and all nations of the earth will be blessed.
Genesis 12v3; 22vs17,18; Rev 22v2.

 

[mickiel]

Sorry, my bad. I was not comprehensive enough in my reply.
God wants all to repent and not perish or be destroyed.
2nd Peter 3v9 B

.

What God wants, he gets it all, how can he be shortchanged by anything a human could do? If God wants a person to be with him, nothing can limit that, BECAUSE its what God desires. What many fail to understand is that Salvation is totally based on what God wants.

And we all are VERY fortunate of that.

Peace.

 

[Evandr]

What God wants, he gets it all, how can he be shortchanged by anything a human could do? If God wants a person to be with him, nothing can limit that, BECAUSE its what God desires. What many fail to understand is that Salvation is totally based on what God wants.

And we all are VERY fortunate of that.

Peace.

It is my belief that as man is, God once was; as God is man may become. Now, given that we all have within us the spark of divinity being that God is our eternal Father, and given that, in the beginning we were all given the tools necessary to become like Him, it is obvious that our failure to reach that goal is indeed shortchanging God.

God desires all His children to return to Him but it is quite evident that all will not, not because of anything that God failed to do but what the individual failes to do.

I also bhelieve that progression towards that goal does not end in the death of the mortal body BUT, those who lived with the opportunity to choose and then rejected what God gave them, well, that's that and there will be no more chance to change ones mind. For those, progression after mortality simply means you will get the carrot you needed to make the right choices but only those who needed no carrot other than what we get in mortality are those who have the potential for eternal progression, nay sayers and those who reject God will only go so far and then they will find an end. This is damnation and yes, it certainly does short change God.

 

[mickiel]

It is my belief that as man is, God once was; as God is man may become. Now, given that we all have within us the spark of divinity being that God is our eternal Father, and given that, in the beginning we were all given the tools necessary to become like Him, it is obvious that our failure to reach that goal is indeed shortchanging God.

.

Now see this right here throws off your thinking, in my view. The belief, and I say errouneous belief, that in the beginning man was given " All the tools to become like God", is simply in gross error. Humanity was NOT, and NEVER has been given " All the tools", in fact he was not given the " Spiritual Tools", which is the ONLY way to become like God, we were only given " Physical Tools", with which its just not even possible to become like God.

Peace.

 

[Evandr]

Now see this right here throws off your thinking, in my view. The belief, and I say errouneous belief, that in the beginning man was given " All the tools to become like God", is simply in gross error. Humanity was NOT, and NEVER has been given " All the tools", in fact he was not given the " Spiritual Tools", which is the ONLY way to become like God, we were only given " Physical Tools", with which its just not even possible to become like God.

Peace.

When I said "in the beginning" I was referring to pre mortal existance, that time when everyone, even Jesus Christ, the Son of God both spiritually (as we all are) and in the flesh (as only He is) was given life. We were all given the same opportunity to progress and spent who knows how many millenia preparing for this time of trial called our mortal probation wherein we are tested to see if our character was such that we need no carrot to entice us to keep the commandments.

Such progression certainly did not begin at birth and does not end at death. The choices we made along that journey in premortality did and does have an effect on our mortal existence and when and where we were slated to enter mortality. It has been said that in these last days the very best and very most rebellious of God's children are coming forth. I guess it has something to do with balance.