The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[URAVIP2ME]

So are you wanting to NOT believe in hell?
Are you willing to call God foolish...hoping He won't send you there?

Don't all of the dead [except those of Matt 12v32] go to hell?
Sinless Jesus even went to hell [Acts 2vs27,31]

Jesus believed in hell. Jesus believed in the Biblical hell.
Jesus believed hell is the stone-cold common grave of mankind.

Because the dead are Not conscious they feel no pain or bliss.
[Ecc 9v5; Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4; Daniel 12vs2,13]

That is why Jesus likened death to deep sleep at John 11vs11-14.

Since hell [gravdom] delivers up all the dead according to Rev 20vs13,14 and then emptied-out hell dies in a second death. Even death dies. Rev 21v4.
So vacant, void of people, hell goes out of existence forever along with death.

 

[Thief]

I was asking Mickiel...but that's okay. He appears to be contradicting himself,
even as he is posting.

So maybe you would 'qualify' hell before assuming what Jesus believed.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So maybe you would 'qualify' hell before assuming what Jesus believed.

Right. We should all qualify before assuming......

Jesus at John 11v11 said his friend was asleep.
When the disciples thought Jesus was talking about usual sleep they told Jesus in verse 12 that if he is asleep he would do well. However, in verse 13 Jesus spoke of his friend's death. So by verse 14 Jesus makes it plain that his friend's sleep was death. -John 5vs28,29.

At first glance Jesus words at Matt [25vs41,46] seem to promote a literal fire.
Jesus never contradicted God's Word which at Ecclesiastes 9v5 says the dead know nothing.

At Mark [9v47,48] the original Greek word translated 'hell' is Geenna.
This word comes from the Hebrew Geh Hinnon meaning Valley of Hinnom.
This Valley was outside of Jerusalem and in Jeremiah's day it was called the 'valley of slaughter' where carcases lie unburied. [Jer 7vs30-34]
So the valley of Hinnon would become, Not a place of torture, but disposal of dead bodies. By the time of Jesus day this valley [Gehenna] was a garbage dump where fire destroyed refuse and carcasses. So Jesus could easily use this valley of Hinnon or Gehenna [hellfire] as a fitting symbol of destruction not torture. Jesus further drives home his point at Matt 10v28 warning God can destroy both body and soul. The soul that sins dies.- Ezekiel 18vs4,20.

Under the Mosaic law justice was that the punishment must fit the crime.
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life...... Punishment was not to be greater than the crime. What crime fits burning forever?

Since literal fire can not burn spirit creatures such as Satan then Jesus words at Matt [25v41] were speaking symbolically just as Jesus was speaking about people not being literal sheep or goats in verse 32. This is in harmony with Psalm [92v7] speaking of the destruction or annihilation of the wicked and not burning them forever.

Sin does not go unpunished. That is why Romans [6v23] says the price tag [or punishment] of sin is: death. 'Death' according to Romans [6v7] is that one's death frees or acquits a person from sin. So 'death' stamps the price tag of sin as "Paid in Full". This does not mean innocent but like a governor can pardon a person so the charges no longer stick. Jesus death pardons excluding ones like those Hebrews 10v26.

The punishment of Matt [25v46] from the Greek word kolasin is used in connection to cutting off or pruning as with tree branches.
So the everlasting punishment then would be forever cut off from life.
Or as 2nd Thess. [1v9] says punished with everlasting destruction.
That is why mortal Satan according to Hebrews [2v14 B] does not burn forever but Satan is destroyed by Jesus. Jesus proved to be the 'seed' of Gen [3v15] that deals Satan [serpent] a fatal death bruise to his head.

Since God takes No pleasure in the death of someone wicked according to Ezekiel [18v23]; 2nd Peter [3v9] , then how could God delight in burning someone for all eternity? Psalm [145v9] says God is good to all.... that is why God desires all to repent rather then 'perish' or be 'destroyed'.

Jesus did not go to Gehenna. Gehenna the place of no resurrection but destruction.
Rather as Peter said Jesus was not left in hell [ haides] - Acts 2vs27,31,32]
which is in harmony with the rest of Scripture.
The Psalms say of the dead that the dead sleep.
Such as:
6v5 that there is no remembrance of God in the grave.
13v3 sleeping the sleep of death
115v17 the dead do not praise God....
146v4 at death thoughts perish.

In connection to the resurrection [Acts 24v15], except for those destroyed of Matthew 12v32; Hebrew 6vs4-6; 10v26, death and hell 'delivered up' the dead according to Rev [20v13,14]. Emptying out hell will mean restoring life to the dead during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth. Then vacant, emptied-out hell, void of people, dies a symbolic second death of never returning and even death will be no more- Rev [21v4]. Our last enemy 'death' [1 Cor 15v26] is destroyed forever. 'Death' swallowed up forever as Isaiah [25v8] says.
So Just as Martha believed at John [11v24] there will be a resurrection on the last day, or Jesus peaceful millennial-long day of ruling over earth, when as the prophet Daniel looked forward [12vs2,13] that the worthy dead will awaken from death's sleep on resurrection morning, so to speak, from the dust of the ground to everlasting life.

 

[Thief]

Well there's the difference.

I believe God to be spirit.
The sons of God are spirit.
The kingdom is not of this world.

The resurrection is in spirit...not body.
The incorruptible body is spirit...not flesh.

The resurrection happens during your last breath.
One desire will be waiting for you as you surrender your last breath.
You will desire to stand up.
You should do so.

Eternal darkness is physically real.

If you fail to renounce the flesh.... ('it is finished')....
the body goes into the box, and the box into the ground.
No form of light follows anyone into the grave.

When...if...you stand up, the angels will be there to see what came of the dust.

If you.... say as They say....do as They do...fine...no problem.
You might be allowed to follow.

Their choice ....not yours.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Well there's the difference.
I believe God to be spirit.
The sons of God are spirit.
The kingdom is not of this world.
The resurrection is in spirit...not body.
The incorruptible body is spirit...not flesh.
The resurrection happens during your last breath.
One desire will be waiting for you as you surrender your last breath.
You will desire to stand up.
You should do so.
Eternal darkness is physically real.
If you fail to renounce the flesh.... ('it is finished')....
the body goes into the box, and the box into the ground.
No form of light follows anyone into the grave.
When...if...you stand up, the angels will be there to see what came of the dust.
If you.... say as They say....do as They do...fine...no problem.
You might be allowed to follow.
Their choice ....not yours.

The rebellious sons of God mentioned at Genesis [6vs2,4] were also spirit and sons of God. Adam [Luke 3v38] is also a son of God. The spirit sons are a heavenly creation whether demonic or holy. Adam was Not spirit but a fleshly, physical creation. Adam was created after all angels were created.

Jesus does take some humans [little flock of Luke 12v32] to heaven to rule with him for a thousand years as Rev [5vs9,10; 20v6] says. Whereas other faithful humans become part of the 'other sheep' of John [10v16] such as starting with the sheep-like ones of Matthew [25v32] that are alive at the time of Jesus 'glory' and they remain alive and keep on living right into the start of Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth.

Jesus is the one that fulfills the promise to Abraham [Gen 12v3;22vs17,18; Rev 22v2] that all families of the earth will be blessed and all nations of the earth will be blessed. Jesus referred to Psalm 37vs11,29 that the humble meek would inherit [not heaven] but inherit the earth.

The kingdom is not of this world because it is a heavenly kingdom,
but the effects of that kingdom will be felt on earth.
It will have the effect as a large 'stone' hitting and smashing all enemies.
See Daniel 2vs 34,45.

Daniel [12vs2,13] Looked forward to an earthly resurrection.
Even king David [Acts 2v34] did not ascend up to heaven.

 

[mickiel]

So are you wanting to NOT believe in hell?
Are you willing to call God foolish...hoping He won't send you there?

I deserve some kind of punishment, but not to be tortured forever.

Good greif man, where are your senses?

Peace.

 

[Danmac]

I deserve some kind of punishment, but not to be tortured forever.

Good greif man, where are your senses?

Peace.

You appear to be ignorant of the seriousness of your crime against God. You are choosing sides. You have "chosen" to reside where satan resides. Satan's eternal home is hell. Do you wish to reside with him for eternity? Yes or no. If you do, it is "your" choice, don't blame the consequences of "your" foolish choices on God.

 

[MurphtheSurf]

All these posts, all these opinions, yet there is only one who backs up anything with scriptures.
C'mon guys, take a closer look.

 

[Thief]

Concerning 'choice'.....

You say as you please....and do likewise.
Whatever proceeds of your speech....you said it.
Whatever your hand performs....you did it.

Whatever you say or do....you thought you should do it...or
it was that you felt like it.

You think you are in control....to some degree, yes.
You have choices to make....to some degree, yes.

Then some day, as we all do, you will lay down to surrender your last breath.
And you will stand up from the dust or.... you won't.
And when you stand up from the dust, there will be two angels before you,
and one other behind you.

If you have done well, said as it truly is....
The two before you will ask you to follow.
If not, the one other behind you will laugh.

To walk in heaven, should you not say as They would say...do as They would do?
If you already perform accordingly...fine..no problem.

If not, that one other behind you, will lead you away.

Have I not said so in this topic thread?
Is not hell, the absence of God?..the one you love most.

And does He, and His angels, have the ability to go on without you?

 

[Thief]

All these posts, all these opinions, yet there is only one who backs up anything with scriptures.
C'mon guys, take a closer look.

You have labeled yourself...truth seeker...and the avatar is no doubt your portrait?

C'mon!...take a closer look!

 

[mickiel]

You appear to be ignorant of the seriousness of your crime against God. You are choosing sides. You have "chosen" to reside where satan resides. Satan's eternal home is hell. Do you wish to reside with him for eternity? Yes or no. If you do, it is "your" choice, don't blame the consequences of "your" foolish choices on God.

Man was not created to have a home in your hell. Your crime against God is spreading this awful lie about hell being for humans.

Peace.

 

[Danmac]

Man was not created to have a home in your hell. Your crime against God is spreading this awful lie about hell being for humans.

Peace.

And your "opinion" is contrary to scripture.........

Mt 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Lu 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Lu 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

As for your twisted opinion.......

2nd Peter3: 16 And as he (Paul) said in all his letters, which had to do with these things; in which are some hard sayings, so that, like the rest of the holy Writings, they are twisted by those who are uncertain and without knowledge, to the destruction of their souls.

 

[MurphtheSurf]

You have labeled yourself...truth seeker...and the avatar is no doubt your portrait?

C'mon!...take a closer look!

So, you have nothing to offer but insults? That and your own homemade theology?

 

[mickiel]

And your "opinion" is contrary to scripture.........

quote]


Not these scriptures; Romans 5:18" So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to " All Men", even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to " All Men." All of humanity are already justified in Gods eyes, just not your holy eyes.

1Tim. 4:10" For it is this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of " ALL Men", especially of believers. There are two different groups given salvation here, " All of humanity", and then believers. And your shortsightedness cannot remove that salvation, as you lust to put these people in your hell.

1Tim. 2:4" God desires ALL men to be saved", and in Job 23:13 it says that God does what he desires to do.

And no hell minded Christians can stop him.

Peace.

 

[Thief]

So, you have nothing to offer but insults? That and your own homemade theology?

You went first with the insults.....

And this topic is not under scriptural debates. This is general religious debates.
Did you want to rebuttal my previous post?
Or complain about insults dealt to you...as you did unto others?

 

[Danmac]

Not these scriptures; Romans 5:18" So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to " All Men", even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to " All Men." All of humanity are already justified in Gods eyes, just not your holy eyes.

Indeed Christ has died for the sins of "all people", but "all people" do not want the gift. To those that ignorantly reject the gift hell awaits them.

1Tim. 2:4" God desires ALL men to be saved", and in Job 23:13 it says that God does what he desires to do.

Saved from what?

 

[rusra02]

And your "opinion" is contrary to scripture.........

Mt 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?


Lu 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

The word translated hell in some bibles is gehenna, a place outside Jerusalem's wall where garbage and dead bodies were burned. Jesus used this as a symbol for everlasting destruction, not torment. Note that both body and soul are destroyed in hell or gehenna.

Lu 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

This account was a parable or illustration Jesus gave to describe the change in circumstances that occurred for classes of people due to Jesus ministry.

Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Note that hell and death are cast into the (symbolic) lake of fire, which is a symbol of second death or destruction. Hell cannot be a place of everlasting torment if it is to be destroyed. Neither can death be literally cast into a real lake of fire. Rather, these things will be destroyed forever. So will all wicked ones be destroyed without hope of a resurrection. They experience the second death, symbolized by a lake of fire.

The scriptures you cite do not say God will torment people forever in a fiery hell.
See my comments above. The scriptures tell us the wages sin pays is death, not torment forever (Romans 5:12). God told Adam he would positively die, not that he would positively be tormented forever. Adam returned to the dust, just as God said he would.

 

[mickiel]

Indeed Christ has died for the sins of "all people", but "all people" do not want the gift. To those that ignorantly reject the gift hell awaits them.




?

If one of your children ignorantly reject a gift from you, does that warrent you punishing them forever? A parent would certainly have to be sadistic to do such a thing. Where is your Love for those who ignorantly reject God?

Peace.

 

[it's_sam]

I'm sure as much as God wants everyone to believe he cannot "teach" them forever and if a stricter lesson is to be learned in hell for their choices in life then it would have its place. I doubt even God would take this any further then needed though, perhaps if you dont learn even in hell you go back to the dust. A sort of last resort to save your soul before you go back to dust. Even if hell isnt a place but a living thought we build in ourselves i do think it does exist in some way. I also seriousely doubt it's the your my religion or your going to hell kind of hell, but something like always a way to learn and not what we expect.

 

[it's_sam]

As Danmac has shown scripture can be used to serve just about any purpose depending on the situation. Most of those quotes were to people of a hard time in life, where they truthfully faced never finding themselves because of the opression on them from wars, slavery, taxes, etc... As mickiel said it is a way to help your spirit grow in God's love, not show how other people are doing it wrong.