The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[Danmac]

The scriptures you cite do not say God will torment people forever in a fiery hell.
See my comments above. The scriptures tell us the wages sin pays is death, not torment forever (Romans 5:12). God told Adam he would positively die, not that he would positively be tormented forever. Adam returned to the dust, just as God said he would.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Danmac]

Quote:
1Tim. 2:4" God desires ALL men to be saved", and in Job 23:13 it says that God does what he desires to do.

What were they being saved from Mickiel?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And isn't hell 'empty' when hell dies a symbolic second death?
Hell [gravedom Ecc 9v5] 'delivered up' those dead in hell Rev 20vs13,14.
So emptied-out, vacant, void of people hell goes out of existence along with death. Death will be no more.- Rev 21v4,5.
Our 'last enemy', not friend, 'death' will be brought to nothing.- 1st Cor 15v26.
Or, as Isaiah [25v8] says: death will be swallowed up forever.

So the definition of the lake of fire is: death, second death to be exact.
What is death but according to Jesus a deep sleep- John 11vs11-14.
[Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4; Daniel 12vs2,13]
Second death is a death of no resurrection but destruction or annihilation [Psalm 92v7]. Except for those of Matt 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6,
then Romans [6v7] applies to those having a resurrection.-
Acts [24v15] whether heavenly or earthly resurrection.

 

[Evandr]

And your "opinion" is contrary to scripture.........

Not completely

Not these scriptures; Romans 5:18" So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to " All Men", even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to " All Men." All of humanity are already justified in Gods eyes, just not your holy eyes.

Although only those who openly choose to follow Satan will be consigned to outer darkness there is a difference between life and exaltation. In Christ all will be made alive (resurrected) but only through strict obedience to the commandments of Christ can one achieve exaltation in the presence of God

1Tim. 4:10" For it is this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of " ALL Men", especially of believers. There are two different groups given salvation here, " All of humanity", and then believers. And your shortsightedness cannot remove that salvation, as you lust to put these people in your hell.

You are correct, all of humanity is resurrected. To believe is to act accordingly and gain the further blessings of those worthy to receive them.

1Tim. 2:4" God desires ALL men to be saved", and in Job 23:13 it says that God does what he desires to do.

And no hell minded Christians can stop him.

Peace.

I think you are taking this one a bit out of context. God does desire all mankind to be saved but He cannot do it for them.

In your reference to Job, Job seeks the Lord and asserts his own righteousness—He says: When the Lord has tried me, I shall come forth as gold. Job indicates that the Lord will do what he desires but remember, there can be conflicts that preclude the Lord's ability to act on His desires, conflicts such as the Lord's desire to save all mankind and His devotion to justice which will prevent Him from doing so.
As I have said before, the only way to reconcile the perfect Love of God and justice is for there to be different levels of glory to which mankind will be forever consigned, one being in the presence of God and others that are not. In reality the definition of Hell is being forever outside the presence of God regardless of how tidy and comfortable the station may be.

 

[Evandr]

And isn't hell 'empty' when hell dies a symbolic second death?
Hell [gravedom Ecc 9v5] 'delivered up' those dead in hell Rev 20vs13,14.
So emptied-out, vacant, void of people hell goes out of existence along with death. Death will be no more.- Rev 21v4,5.
Our 'last enemy', not friend, 'death' will be brought to nothing.- 1st Cor 15v26.
Or, as Isaiah [25v8] says: death will be swallowed up forever.

So the definition of the lake of fire is: death, second death to be exact.
What is death but according to Jesus a deep sleep- John 11vs11-14.
[Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4; Daniel 12vs2,13]
Second death is a death of no resurrection but destruction or annihilation [Psalm 92v7]. Except for those of Matt 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6,
then Romans [6v7] applies to those having a resurrection.-
Acts [24v15] whether heavenly or earthly resurrection.

I disagree. The first death is the death of the body to which all will be resurrected; the second death is experienced the moment a person is forever consigned to a place outside the presence of God regardless of the glory of said place.

 

[mickiel]

What were they being saved from Mickiel?

From sin and its results, from misery and pain and crying and from death. All these things that having a hell surely would be. And in Rev. 21:4 God wipes away all tears from humans and it says there will no longer be any death, no more crying and mourning and no more pain, that all these things will past away.

Thats the elimination of any hell belief in my view, and a wonderful prophecy showing God is caring and loving. Two other things which cancel out hell.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

Not completely


. In Christ all will be made alive (resurrected) but only through strict obedience to the commandments of Christ can one achieve exaltation in the presence of God


.

Strict obedience sounds so much like the Pharisees,

so much like them.

Peace.

 

[Thief]

Plenty of scripture getting tossed back and forth....no one seems to notice...
such knowledge is not a saving grace.

The Fallen Angel knows the scriptures....all of them.
He knows the prophets....all of them.

But for all the Devil may know...He does not live in heaven.

Any such thing a guaranteed position in heaven?...nay.
If God is willing that His favored Angel may fall....then nay...no such position.

If God has what it takes to go on without His favored Angel...now fallen...
what then of you?

 

[Evandr]

Strict obedience sounds so much like the Pharisees,

so much like them.

Peace.

God is God and the Pharisees are the Pharisees. Strict obedience does not have to mean pain, unrighteous subjugation and the loss of free will. In this case it is strict obedience to the laws and statutes of the Gospel that bring joy in this life and exaltation in the kingdom of God. Why cast a dark shadow on that? Strict obedience to directives given is the only way to successfully get through a mine field. This analogy is especially relevant when it come to working your way around the demands of justice, in fact, it is the only way so be grateful and stop finding things wrong with the laws of the Gospel, they are designed to help you not hinder you.

 

[mickiel]

God is God and the Pharisees are the Pharisees. Strict obedience does not have to mean pain, unrighteous subjugation and the loss of free will. In this case it is strict obedience to the laws and statutes of the Gospel that bring joy in this life and exaltation in the kingdom of God. Why cast a dark shadow on that? Strict obedience to directives given is the only way to successfully get through a mine field. This analogy is especially relevant when it come to working your way around the demands of justice, in fact, it is the only way so be grateful and stop finding things wrong with the laws of the Gospel, they are designed to help you not hinder you.

Strict obedience, Laws, demands of Justice, all have the smell of the Pharisees ways of thinking. I never liked how they treated others and their tendency to be so self righteous. I quess because I have never been able to " Strickly Obey God', I just don't complettely trust in those terms.

Rather, I trust in those things I need from God, such as forgiveness, Mercy, Grace, Love and Kindness, and I constantly need them because of my foolish ways. And I believe thats what mankind needs from God, and we certainly wouldnot make it if God himself is as strict as the Pharisees.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

If God has what it takes to go on without His favored Angel...now fallen...
what then of you?

I believe the " Fall" of Angels is a myth. They never fell, they were "Thrown." They never were good at one time then fell to evil, they all were created evil from their conception in my view of scripture.

And God has what it takes to forgive, to be Gentle and Kind, Merciful and Longsuffering, and those are the things God has in store for humanity.

Peace.

 

[Thief]

I believe the " Fall" of Angels is a myth. They never fell, they were "Thrown." They never were good at one time then fell to evil, they all were created evil from their conception in my view of scripture.

And God has what it takes to forgive, to be Gentle and Kind, Merciful and Longsuffering, and those are the things God has in store for humanity.

Peace.

You're tying to go two directions at once.
And your sentence structure doesn't help.

So...God created evil angels....and threw them out of heaven?
Then you say of God that.... He is merciful?

There's a difference between conflicting ideas.. as compared to convoluted.
Do you know the difference?

 

[mickiel]

You're tying to go two directions at once.
And your sentence structure doesn't help.

So...God created evil angels....and threw them out of heaven?
Then you say of God that.... He is merciful?

There's a difference between conflicting ideas.. as compared to convoluted.
Do you know the difference?

I believe God created the demons in some part of Heaven, for their own purposes in his will, and cast them out when he was finished with their creation.

I understand that I can be convoluted and my sentence structure is weak, I ask that you pardon those things and bear with me.

Peace.

 

[Thief]

I believe God created the demons in some part of Heaven, for their own purposes in his will, and cast them out when he was finished with their creation.

I understand that I can be convoluted and my sentence structure is weak, I ask that you pardon those things and bear with me.

Peace.

Okay....

So let's move more basic reasonings.
Why would God create an evil being?

Is it not more likely...having allowed free will....the 'fallen'...or 'thrown' angel
chose to be insubordinate?

A command was given...and out of free will...someone said...'nay'.

 

[Evandr]

Strict obedience, Laws, demands of Justice, all have the smell of the Pharisees ways of thinking. I never liked how they treated others and their tendency to be so self righteous. I quess because I have never been able to " Strickly Obey God', I just don't complettely trust in those terms.

Rather, I trust in those things I need from God, such as forgiveness, Mercy, Grace, Love and Kindness, and I constantly need them because of my foolish ways. And I believe thats what mankind needs from God, and we certainly wouldnot make it if God himself is as strict as the Pharisees.

Peace.

God is not the strict one, the demands of justice are. God, through His son Jesus Christ has made available a path around the demands of justice that we can actually traverse but it does mean a fair amount of exactness in keeping the commandments to be successful. Nobody is going to force you but, by the same token, nobody is going to force the hand of justice to stay its due if that is what you choose, it's up to you. If you think the Pharisees were difficult to deal with just wait until you are faced with the demands of justice without Christ being able to mediate for you. You'll be forever trying to satisfy that bill, and it won't be fun (did I mention forever?)

 

[mickiel]

Okay....

So let's move more basic reasonings.
Why would God create an evil being?

Is it not more likely...having allowed free will....the 'fallen'...or 'thrown' angel
chose to be insubordinate?

A command was given...and out of free will...someone said...'nay'.

God created evil in order to institute his Plan of Salvation, we couldnot have one without the other, and I think this is misunderstood. Angels have no " Free Will", they were created " As Is", and can only be as is, they do not, cannot change. Free will is an overblown belief, we have what I call " Limited Will", and it is not free from the influences we have on our Consciousness.

Our wills are limited, we just like to believe their free.

Peace.

 

[Thief]

God created evil in order to institute his Plan of Salvation, we couldnot have one without the other, and I think this is misunderstood. Angels have no " Free Will", they were created " As Is", and can only be as is, they do not, cannot change. Free will is an overblown belief, we have what I call " Limited Will", and it is not free from the influences we have on our Consciousness.

Our wills are limited, we just like to believe their free.

Peace.

We are not far apart.
You say as you please...do as you please...and to that extent you have some free will.

If you speak...are they not your words?
If your hand does anything at all...was it not that you thought you should?
and because you felt like it?

Or maybe you believe you are Someone else's puppet?

Are you seeking to be free?
Hoping to say there is no hell?...and by denial make the escape...
the escape the evil angels could not do for themselves?

 

[mickiel]

If you think the Pharisees were difficult to deal with just wait until you are faced with the demands of justice without Christ being able to mediate for you. You'll be forever trying to satisfy that bill, and it won't be fun (did I mention forever?)

This kind of reasoning suggest that Christ " Has not" mediated for " All" of humanity already. 1Tim. 2:6 says that he gave himself a ransom for all, he mediated for all, so to " threaten" someone and suggest they willNOT have Jesus Ransom applied on their behalf, IS the Pharisetical aittitude I was mentioning that I never have liked. Its an open " Willingness to condemn others." Which was an ugly way of the Pharisee.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

We are not far apart.
You say as you please...do as you please...and to that extent you have some free will.

If you speak...are they not your words?
If your hand does anything at all...was it not that you thought you should?
and because you felt like it?

Or maybe you believe you are Someone else's puppet?

Are you seeking to be free?
Hoping to say there is no hell?...and by denial make the escape...
the escape the evil angels could not do for themselves?

Thinking and Consciousness are two different things. Our thinking has a limited freedom, our Consciousness does not.

Peace.

 

[Thief]

Thinking and Consciousness are two different things. Our thinking has a limited freedom, our Consciousness does not.

Peace.

You have made a separation where no separation belongs.

You are conscious...now...and you can be sure of it.
You are reading these words.

If you were sleeping, drugged, or dead...your ability to be aware would be gone. You would be unconscious.

Without your thoughts, you cannot be aware.

Perhaps you can escape hell...by surrendering your awareness?
But then....how would you say even the simplest of things?....'I am'.