The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[Thief]

Who do you propose has a desire for hell? I certainly don't.

Not my proposal.
I was answering some else's post....as if he could be right.

 

[Beta]

Believers' Tactics 101:

Step 1: Get posed a legitimate question about an apparent dilemma
Step 2: Offer an answer that references the dilemma but doesn't solve it
Step 3: When the atheist points out the dilemma still exists, start using special pleading fallacy to ensure that no response is possible by putting the problem outside the bounds of human understanding; i.e. claiming God does something inexplicable that "solves" the dilemma

So far I haven't seen a single theist answer these questions without resorting to special pleading fallacies...

Fallacies are called "fallacious" for a reason people...

You have received a valid response to your problem of un-answered questions.
You have been offered a 'starting point' with God Heb.11v6.
If you refuse to accept it you can hardly blame anyone but yourself.
I would say there is plenty logic in that ???

 

[NeoSeeker]

No, atheists just don't want to believe in god, that yearning is too obvious to ignore.

A yearning does not guarantee existence of said God.

I'll very much agree with >>beta here, since there is lack of belief on your side of the argument, i cannot refer to any divine laws or the word of god, for it's going to be entirely lost on you, no matter how convincing it may seem.

What makes quoting scripture convincing to a non-believer? I agree. The real problem is what is the source of these divine laws? The followers swear by them. The questioners ask for evidence.

1st) How did the huge mass of the universe came into being by it own self? And why is it still in the process of expansion? There has to be a significant bigger Matter which gave rise to the visible energy forms that we see today.

Unfortunately the wonders of the universe do not have to point to one head dude who is responsible or is faintly aware of us, or has a personal relationship with each individual human. It's a big maybe originating from human beings desire to want a celestial father to look after and take care of them.

You have received a valid response to your problem of un-answered questions.
You have been offered a 'starting point' with God Heb.11v6.
If you refuse to accept it you can hardly blame anyone but yourself.
I would say there is plenty logic in that ???

The individual would have to accept your scripture as truth before any progress can be made. That is the challenge, unless your religion is happy to accept blind followers.

 

[Reverend Rick]

In the almost 300 pages of this thread, I have asked this several times without answer.

Why would someone who does not believe in God worry about where he is going to send them?

 

[Melvin.George]

Espically if the bait is filtered through the bible. The use of the bible for anything but salvation is contridiction and blindness. The bible is a book about how we all have a destiny with God, certain religious believers are making it a sadistic book on torture and the slaughter of unbelieving sinners. They think Jesus was beaten to death in order that those who reject God may be beaten for eternity.
Holding no real concept of Gods grace, they pervert the purpose of the Prince of Peace .

There are 162 mentions of hell in the new testament...70 by Jesus himself. Here are a few samples:

"The Son of Man shall send out His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
(Mat 13:41-42)

"So it shall be at the end of the world. The angels shall come out and separate the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Mat 13:49-50

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Away from me, you that are under God's curse! Away to the eternal fire which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels!"
"These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life."
(Mat 25:41 & 46)

"And if your foot offends you, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life lame than to have two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched where
their worm (conscience) dies not, and the fire is not quenched."
(Mark 9:45-46)

"And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame."
(Luke 16:23-24)

"He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil."
(John 3:18-19)

" - in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, ...."
(2Th 1:8-9)

"And a third angel followed them, saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."
(Rev 14:9-11)

"And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire."
(Rev 20:15)

"But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
(Rev 21:8)

 

[mickiel]

In the almost 300 pages of this thread, I have asked this several times without answer.

Why would someone who does not believe in God worry about where he is going to send them?

Why do you think God has to send humans somewhere?

Peace.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Why do you think God has to send humans somewhere?

Peace.

See what I mean, I get a question instead of an answer.

 

[Melvin.George]

See what I mean, I get a question instead of an answer.

I'm guessing he could feel the way I do. A loving caring god wouldn't have to send us anywhere. Methinks god is made in man's image and not the other way round.

 

[mickiel]

See what I mean, I get a question instead of an answer.

Why does God need to send humans to this place?

Explain that.

Peace.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I asked my question first. If you show me some respect and answer my question, I will be glad to answer yours as well.

We can have a dialog if you wish and talk to each other both asking and answering questions if you like.

There is a difference between talking AT someone and talking WITH someone.

 

[Beta]

If 'this place' is the lake of fire God sends unrepentant sinners there Mat.25v41.

 

[Beta]

The individual would have to accept your scripture as truth before any progress can be made. That is the challenge, unless your religion is happy to accept blind followers.

May I point out that scripture is not ' my ' scripture but GOD's. And yes - one would have to believe and accept God's Word as truth before progress can be made. We are all free agents to believe or not to believe so I would say your argument is really with God.

 

[NeoSeeker]

In the almost 300 pages of this thread, I have asked this several times without answer.

Why would someone who does not believe in God worry about where he is going to send them?

They shouldn't, but as the hedge-your-bets religious types, maybe they worry if they are wrong? However, the debate of whether a just and loving but absentee God would or should send his children to Hell is a good philosophical discussion imo.

May I point out that scripture is not ' my ' scripture but GOD's. And yes - one would have to believe and accept God's Word as truth before progress can be made. We are all free agents to believe or not to believe so I would say your argument is really with God.

How do you know it is God's but not the work of imaginative men? When I was a child at my Presbyterian Church, I became aware of the book called the Bible. This is the truth I was told by a bunch of adults who 1) knew the truth, 2) guessed at the truth and this seemed pretty good to them, 3) had visions of God telling them this was the truth, 4) Went along with it because it's better to be safe than burn in hell. 5) other?

 

[Reverend Rick]

They shouldn't, but as the hedge-your-bets religious types, maybe they worry if they are wrong? However, the debate of whether a just and loving but absentee God would or should send his children to Hell is a good philosophical discussion imo.

So let me get this straight, you set up this huge straw man about a God you don't believe in possessing "just and loving" qualities and want me to defend hell?

The God I believe in is a jealous and vengeful God. I am not suppose to judge you, that is his job.

From what I understand, he offers you this gift of salvation. If you choose to accept this gift, your name will be written in the lamb's book of life.

My understanding is, if your name is not in this book, God will toast your butt like a marshmallow in an everlasting tormenting fire for all eternity.

Now answer my question, who ever said God was "just and Loving" of people who deny his gift of salvation?

 

[Meow Mix]

You have received a valid response to your problem of un-answered questions.
You have been offered a 'starting point' with God Heb.11v6.
If you refuse to accept it you can hardly blame anyone but yourself.
I would say there is plenty logic in that ???

Yeah, I apologize for the snippy response I gave, it was a little out of line... I've just gotten so many special pleading responses that I was making a joke about how standard they are.

Let me explain what I mean. You essentially said that there's some unknown morally sufficient reason for God to allow suffering. However, that isn't a response. That's a fallacy -- see special pleading (particularly the bottom example about nobody having the qualifications to understand something): Special pleading - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is a problem of evil and suffering. Throwing up our arms and saying "Somehow, inexplicably, miraculously, God makes it all good -- but we can't know in what way God does it!" doesn't solve anything. It's just utilizing a bad fallacy to sweep a problem under the rug.

 

[Beta]

How do you know it is God's but not the work of imaginative men? When I was a child at my Presbyterian Church, I became aware of the book called the Bible. This is the truth I was told by a bunch of adults who 1) knew the truth, 2) guessed at the truth and this seemed pretty good to them, 3) had visions of God telling them this was the truth, 4) Went along with it because it's better to be safe than burn in hell. 5) other?

Because the Bible (the Word of God) tells us not to put our trust in men , not to make the arm of flesh our strength.
Far too many people go along with what preachers teach instead of reading and relying on God / Christ.

 

[Beta]

Yeah, I apologize for the snippy response I gave, it was a little out of line... I've just gotten so many special pleading responses that I was making a joke about how standard they are.
Let me explain what I mean. You essentially said that there's some unknown morally sufficient reason for God to allow suffering. However, that isn't a response. That's a fallacy -- see special pleading (particularly the bottom example about nobody having the qualifications to understand something): Special pleading - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is a problem of evil and suffering. Throwing up our arms and saying "Somehow, inexplicably, miraculously, God makes it all good -- but we can't know in what way God does it!" doesn't solve anything. It's just utilizing a bad fallacy to sweep a problem under the rug.

My dear , now it is my turn to apologize, I could not make head or tail of the link you provided. I am a simple person who is not much into debating human perplexities. God tells us not to lean on our own understanding and I am happy to rely on HIS Help and HIS Word for guidance. But I know God has no need to plead nor has any of his followers. God tells us to mend our ways by becoming obedient to Him and that will improve our situation and condition. We are in a personal salvation not yet in a general. I can not speak for the actions of others.

 

[Melvin.George]

if your name is not in this book, God will toast your butt like a marshmallow in an everlasting tormenting fire for all eternity.

Like I said...god was made in man's image. Not the other way around. If you believe that your god is the true god and every one else will burn for the rest of eternity why don't you start strapping dynamite to your chest and wiping out some of the others like the other crew that believes everyone else will roast?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If 'this place' is the lake of fire God sends unrepentant sinners there Mat.25v41.

According to Rev 20vs13,14 the lake of fire is: the second death.
So the definition of the lake of fire is symbolic death.
Death according to Jesus [John 11vs11-14] is the opposite of life.
The dead sleep the deep sleep of death not knowing anything.
Compare Ecc 9vs5,10 Psalm 6v5; 23v3; 115v17; 146v4

With 'second' death there is no resurrection.
Notice 'second death' comes after all in the Biblical hell [gravedom] are 'delivered up' according to Rev 20vs13,14. Then 'emptied-out hell' the common grave of mankind, is cast into symbolic second death.
Hell [haides/ sheol] will never exist again starting with Jesus 1000-year reign over earth.

At Matthew 25v46 mentions the goats go away into everlasting punishment not everlasting fire. 2nd Thess 1v9 connects punishment with everlasting destruction.... So does Psalm 92v7 in being destroyed or annihilated forever as does Acts 3v23. see also Psalm 78v50.

 

[dancingsky]

According to Rev 20vs13,14 the lake of fire is: the second death.
So the definition of the lake of fire is symbolic death.
Death according to Jesus [John 11vs11-14] is the opposite of life.
The dead sleep the deep sleep of death not knowing anything.
Compare Ecc 9vs5,10 Psalm 6v5; 23v3; 115v17; 146v4

With 'second' death there is no resurrection.
Notice 'second death' comes after all in the Biblical hell [gravedom] are 'delivered up' according to Rev 20vs13,14. Then 'emptied-out hell' the common grave of mankind, is cast into symbolic second death.
Hell [haides/ sheol] will never exist again starting with Jesus 1000-year reign over earth.

At Matthew 25v46 mentions the goats go away into everlasting punishment not everlasting fire. 2nd Thess 1v9 connects punishment with everlasting destruction.... So does Psalm 92v7 in being destroyed or annihilated forever as does Acts 3v23. see also Psalm 78v50.

To me those verses seem like gobbledegook and shouldn't be interpreted literally.