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The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

Thief

Rogue Theologian
And hell is living without that one item you love most, for the rest of eternity.

First you must believe in life after death.
Then decide if anyone is in charge.
Then decide if that one person is the one you love most.
Then realize He might not love you back....
and would rather spend eternity with someone else.


Of course...if you lack faith....
You cannot love God.
How do you love what you don't believe in?

If you do love God, then hell would be that place without Him.

Decisions....decisions...decisions.....
 

dancingsky

Well away from here
And hell is living without that one item you love most, for the rest of eternity.

First you must believe in life after death.
Then decide if anyone is in charge.
Then decide if that one person is the one you love most.
Then realize He might not love you back....
and would rather spend eternity with someone else.


Of course...if you lack faith....
You cannot love God.
How do you love what you don't believe in?

If you do love God, then hell would be that place without Him.

Decisions....decisions...decisions.....

Hell would be living with god!
 

NeoSeeker

Searching Low & High
And hell is living without that one item you love most, for the rest of eternity.

First you must believe in life after death.
Then decide if anyone is in charge.
Then decide if that one person is the one you love most.
Then realize He might not love you back....
and would rather spend eternity with someone else.


Of course...if you lack faith....
You cannot love God.
How do you love what you don't believe in?

If you do love God, then hell would be that place without Him.

Decisions....decisions...decisions.....

I'm only familiar with Christianity and the Bible, which appears to me a shining of example of how to misinterpret divinity if there is such a thing as a divine being. The Bible includes some instances of good rules to live by if you can wade through all the terrible allegories written by ancient men. Stories that are supposed to reveal the true nature of a loving God, but in many cases twist him into a sadistic controller. Adam and Eve, Noah's Arc, The Story of Job- I don't find any of these enlightening or inspiring. Just who came up with the concept of Hell? At this point in time, I must say it was the manipulators recruiting for their favorite religion. Believe this or else, burn!

There are so many things we don't know know, that the concept of a higher power seems perfectly reasonable. But the Devil is in the details. ;) Who, what, where, when, why? This is where the problem lays. There is an army of preachers who use the Bible as their standard. WHY? I just don't see it. Are there other religions that might have more credibility, but that credibility depends on vagueness. When it comes to a subject that has no provable facts associated with it. The vaguer the better. :D
 

mickiel

Well-Known Member
The more I think about hell the more I just see no use for it. IF, and I stress IF God didnot like something, such as sin and misery, why would he keep it in existence forever? Why? I can't get pass this in my mind. God could simply " Will anything OUT of existence he does not like", and be done with it. Just be totally done with it, he holds that Power.

So hell makes no sense to me.

Peace.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
The more I think about hell the more I just see no use for it. IF, and I stress IF God didnot like something, such as sin and misery, why would he keep it in existence forever? Why? I can't get pass this in my mind. God could simply " Will anything OUT of existence he does not like", and be done with it. Just be totally done with it, he holds that Power.

So hell makes no sense to me.

Peace.

Maybe He's hoping you'll change your mind.

In the meantime, He will simply hang out with whomever He chooses.
The choice belongs to Him.

The less desirable company will hang out with each other.
How about you?
Worthy to hang out with God are you?
 

mickiel

Well-Known Member
Maybe He's hoping you'll change your mind.

In the meantime, He will simply hang out with whomever He chooses.
The choice belongs to Him.

The less desirable company will hang out with each other.
How about you?
Worthy to hang out with God are you?


Greetings Thief,

I am certainly not worthy, and I agree, he hangs out with who he chooses.

I simply am not chosen.

Peace.
 

Starsoul

Truth
The more I think about hell the more I just see no use for it. IF, and I stress IF God didnot like something, such as sin and misery, why would he keep it in existence forever? Why? I can't get pass this in my mind. God could simply " Will anything OUT of existence he does not like", and be done with it. Just be totally done with it, he holds that Power.

So hell makes no sense to me.

Peace.

That is a reasonable question, but it has an answer. Lets say ,God's level of perfection can be only truly experienced in heaven and He only gave a minute proof of His limitless creative designs to us( His creation)on earth So that we got an idea as to how 'which things lead to what' in this life. Perfection cannot be reached in this world through Human effort because it is just not an achievable attribute, and even if it is achieved to some extent (regarding the frames of references that we have in mind,i.e the world), It can entirely be lost to any natural calamity or human error /disaster( Even if you were the richest person on earth, you're bound to have suffered in some way or the other, but not like a poor person though, because his money does not buy him expensive distractions.)

Why should God 'will anything out of existence' when He has given PLENTY of Resources to humanity to do so? Its like I give authority and lots of wealth to some powerful & resourceful person, to look over the poor people and provide for their needs, and all that person could give was a tiny fraction of his money and spend the rest on building mansions, expensive cars and huge yatches.. Do all these things add to the welfare of the society in anyway? except an un-necessary display of wealth to keep intact the integrity of the rich man in the eyes of all?

How can people of this world ,where billions of dollars go into killing innocent unarmed people in Afghanistan and Iraq wars (& other terror events), Not hold science and greed responsible for the mayhem in world? if there are sick and ill suffering people, then there are those who own so much they could buy the whole planet and wipe all suffering.

Why then, the question is posed to God rather then those people who have all the resources to alleviate literally every misery on Earth? Should wealth not be a test for Rich people? Do you think that rich people have it all in both worlds without any fair trial of how they earned the wealth and never really got around spending any significant amount for the welfare of humanity?

Why don't people ask NASA the question that it eats around 19 billion dollars of tax payers money every year? And the the rest of the budget is like 3 trillion dollars? And what good has come out of it ever? Have people of the world been affected in any positive way by sending rockets and spaceships into the space? I'm not against research and studies, but even if only 1 billion dollars out of that was spent somewhere usefully on welfare every year in any poor country, there would've been astounding progress for the people living below the poverty line, but no, that is God's area of expertise , He should do it, why should we?

And coming to Health care, a basic right of every human, is denied to those who are in dire need of it, and given for free to those who run the whole world, don't understand how people have the audacity to assign unfairness to God rather than people among themselves?

And as for the answer to why doesn't He? He will, justifiably so, AFTER the Humanity has been given enough resources and opportunities in excess, again and again, so that they have no Lame excuses on the day of judgment that ' Oh I did not have enough money/power/control/resources to do this or that'. God will open the doors of heaven for the oppressed and the sufferers and the arrogant rich who cling to their wealth like glue will deserve another place.

And well for those who would say, 'Hey God I don't believe in Heaven, so i don't think I need it', pretty much has pre-decided where he wants to go. And thats a very unfair concept of reward and punishment, how can people be so pessimistic?
 
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Starsoul

Truth
Greetings Thief,

I am certainly not worthy, and I agree, he hangs out with who he chooses.

I simply am not chosen.

Peace.

That is not true. God chooses all those who are born as Humans on this earth, otherwise you or I both would be some bacteria /virus or a rain drop, what 'will power' would he have against our own creation or the place that we went to?

It 'us' who choose whether 'we' want to hang out with God in this world and the hereafter, Because He has chosen us as his beloved creation long ago before we were even destined to come into this world. Man is listed as the highest Form of creation by God In the Holy texts, and the most dearest, loved one too, because Man has been designed capable enough to learn knowledge and pick clues to His creator on his own , even when all proofs have been erased out of his mind and hidden from his eyes. Thats a very noble and dear quality don't you think?

What is happiness without sorrow? If we lived in a world where everything was pretty neat and everyone plastered a wide grin on their faces, would that be of any value if we had not gone through any suffering before? why would anyone be happy when he hasn't ever seen a sad day?

And in the end we do have a concept of heaven because all suffering will end there and man is to live there forever. Why shouldn't man culture and educate himself to such a noble concept ,what does he have to loose in this world by being aware of the truth behind his existence?
 

Peace

Quran & Sunnah
That is a reasonable question, but it has an answer. Lets say ,God's level of perfection can be only truly experienced in heaven and He only gave a minute proof of His limitless creative designs to us( His creation)on earth So that we got an idea as to how which things lead to what in this life. Perfection cannot be reached in this world through Human effort because it is just not an achievable attribute, and even if it is achieved to some extent (regarding the frames of references that we have in mind,i.e the world), It can entirely be lost to any natural calamity or human error /disaster( Even if you were the richest person on earth, you're bound to have suffered in some way or the other, but not like a poor person though, because his money does not buy him expensive distractions.)

Why should God 'will anything out of existence' when He has given PLENTY of Resources to humanity to do so? Its like I give authority and lots of wealth to some powerful & resourceful person, to look over the poor people and provide for their needs, and all that person could give was a tiny fraction of his money and spend the rest on building mansions, expensive cars and huge yatches.. Do all these things add to the welfare of the society in anyway? except an un-necessary display of wealth to keep intact the integrity of the rich man in the eyes of all?

How can people of this world ,where billions of dollars go into killing innocent unarmed people in Afghanistan and Iraq wars (& other terror events), Not hold science and greed responsible for the mayhem in world? if there are sick and ill suffering people, then there are those who own so much they could buy the whole planet and wipe all suffering.

Why then, the question is posed to God rather then those people who have all the resources to alleviate literally every misery on Earth? Should wealth not be a test for Rich people? Do you think that rich people have it all in both worlds without any fair trial of how they earned the wealth and never really got around spending any significant amount for the welfare of humanity?

Why don't people ask NASA the question that it eats around 19 billions of tax payers money every year? And the the rest of the budget is like 3 trillion dollars? And what good has come out of it ever? Have people of the world been affected in any positive way by sending rockets and spaceships into the space? I'm not against research and studies, but even if only 1 billion dollars out of that was spent somewhere usefully on welfare every year in any poor country, there would've been astounding progress for the people living below the poverty line, but no, that is God's area of expertise , He should do it, why should we?

And coming to Health care, a basic right of every human, is denied to those who are in dire need of it, and given for free to those who run the whole world, don't understand how people have the audacity to assign unfairness to God rather than people among themselves?

And as for the answer to why doesn't He? He will, justifiably so, AFTER the Humanity has been given enough resources and opportunities in excess, again and again, so that they have no Lame excuses on the day of judgment that ' Oh I did not have enough money/power/control/resources to do this or that'. God will open the doors of heaven for the oppressed and the sufferers and the arrogant rich who cling to their wealth like glue will deserve another place.

And well for those who would say, 'Hey God I don't believe in Heaven, so i don't think I need it', pretty much has pre-decided where he wants to go. And thats a very unfair concept of reward and punishment, how can people be so pessimistic?

:clap Masha'Allah great post indeed!!! May our Allah bless you!
 

Peace

Quran & Sunnah
Greetings Thief,

I am certainly not worthy, and I agree, he hangs out with who he chooses.

I simply am not chosen.

Peace.

Starsoul said:
It 'us' who choose whether 'we' want to hang out with God in this world and the hereafter, Because He has chosen us as his beloved creation long ago before we were even destined to come into this world. Man is listed as the highest Form of creation by God In the Holy texts, and the most dearest, loved one too, because Man has been designed capable enough to learn knowledge and pick clues to His creator on his own , even when all proofs have been erased out of his mind and hidden from his eyes. Thats a very noble and dear quality don't you think?

While reading mickiel's post and Starsoul post the following sacred Hadith came to my mind and want to share it:

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: Allah the Almighty said:

"I am as My servant thinks I am. I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed. "
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
The more I think about hell the more I just see no use for it. IF, and I stress IF God didnot like something, such as sin and misery, why would he keep it in existence forever? Why? I can't get pass this in my mind. God could simply " Will anything OUT of existence he does not like", and be done with it. Just be totally done with it, he holds that Power.

So hell makes no sense to me.

Peace.

I believe when God was designing hell, he had a certain guest in mind.
 

mickiel

Well-Known Member
I believe when God was designing hell, he had a certain guest in mind.


Well according to Matt. 25:41, eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels.

So according to this biblical prinicipal, and comming from Christ very own words, this fire was NOT prepared for humans. It was not created for us, and I believe not meant for us.

Peace.

Peace.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
That is not true. God chooses all those who are born as Humans on this earth, otherwise you or I both would be some bacteria /virus or a rain drop, what 'will power' would he have against our own creation or the place that we went to?

It 'us' who choose whether 'we' want to hang out with God in this world and the hereafter, Because He has chosen us as his beloved creation long ago before we were even destined to come into this world. Man is listed as the highest Form of creation by God In the Holy texts, and the most dearest, loved one too, because Man has been designed capable enough to learn knowledge and pick clues to His creator on his own , even when all proofs have been erased out of his mind and hidden from his eyes. Thats a very noble and dear quality don't you think?

What is happiness without sorrow? If we lived in a world where everything was pretty neat and everyone plastered a wide grin on their faces, would that be of any value if we had not gone through any suffering before? why would anyone be happy when he hasn't ever seen a sad day?

And in the end we do have a concept of heaven because all suffering will end there and man is to live there forever. Why shouldn't man culture and educate himself to such a noble concept ,what does he have to loose in this world by being aware of the truth behind his existence?

This is not true.

To believe the above quote, long standing storyline about God would have to be denied.

Wasn't God's favored Angel thrown out of heaven?
The cause for the dismissal varies from one belief to another, but the basic idea runs firm in several forms of faith.

If God is such that He would have His favored Angel cast down....
then there is no such thing as a secured position in heaven.

Most forms of faith suggest some level of discipline is required for entry.
How much more is required that you are allowed to remain?
 

Beta

Well-Known Member
Well according to Matt. 25:41, eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels.

So according to this biblical prinicipal, and comming from Christ very own words, this fire was NOT prepared for humans. It was not created for us, and I believe not meant for us.
Peace.
Peace.
You are quite right that hell-fire was not prepared for man per se - but never-the-less the unrepentant sinner will have his end in it though he himself will become ashes (burn up) Mal.4v3 and not be tormented eternally.
 
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Starsoul

Truth
This is not true.

To believe the above quote, long standing storyline about God would have to be denied.

Wasn't God's favored Angel thrown out of heaven?
The cause for the dismissal varies from one belief to another, but the basic idea runs firm in several forms of faith.

If God is such that He would have His favored Angel cast down....
then there is no such thing as a secured position in heaven.

Most forms of faith suggest some level of discipline is required for entry.
How much more is required that you are allowed to remain?


I dont' know whats a rogue theologian, but i wonder how a rogue theologian knows atleast this much :)

I'm not going to ask you to confirm it, just informing since you asked, because it is the truth whether it finds a place in your head /heart or not, depends all upon where your faith and logic is focused at, denial or belief. The Holy Quran contains the whole story about the fallen 'spirit', and it was Not an Angel.

And before I proceed, i'd let you know that i am aware of the soft sympathetic corner some rogue theologians have for the 'fallen spirit', and they have yet to understand that God's sympathy and kindness with His creations is way beyond our reach of imagination and we dis-regard that actual kindness in face of the fact that the 'fallen spirit' is a grave enemy of all humanity and is continuously working aggressively to create huge distances between Man and His creator by offering close-ended logic and countless other deceptive ways of turning man against God.

I Know its going to get a lot of negative criticism, but You must know the truth even if you don't believe in it, someday you may come across something that confirms it to you, maybe and maybe not, so I'd humbly request everybody to not ask silly questions regarding this, If they have any questions they can ask God themselves, He has a better of revealing things personally to people who seek to understand, I'm just presenting what has been told in the Quran and in ahadith collectively.

Briefly, I'll name the 'fallen spirit' as his name has been mentioned in the Quran, as 'Iblees'.
I would've quoted the verses directly, but i do not have access to my books at the moment.

So, Iblees used to be the king of the jinns (if you know what they are, the other form of creation which we cannot see through naked eyes but two other creations of God have been listed in the Quran, One is Angel, other is Jinns and shayateen, shayateen are the infidel jinns).

Angels were all made of light and Jinns were all made of fire.

When Man was not created, there were Angels and Jinns who used to worship God. Iblees was the king of the jinns and Angels have their own separate authorities . Iblees, before the creation of Man was among the top most worshipers of God, and he was hence one of the most learned and dearest to God. he had been given a lot of knowledge and respect. But that dearness had instilled a sense of arrogance into him which revealed itself outrageously later.

When then God created Man from clay and water(it is said in the Quran that Man was created out of clay and water), and man was made the syed (sardar/sir/ high position) of heaven over the worshipping angels and Jinns. Then God revealed His Creation ,Man, to His other creations (Angels and Jinns) and told them that Man is going be to be Superior to both and they must bow down to Man.

All acknowledged the new creation of God and in God's obedience bowed down to Man (as all the creations knew the Omnipotence and Omniscience and Sovereignty of God). Except iblees, the king of Jinns. He went mad in anger and fury. And refused to bow down to man. Now, God, having the powers he has could just show His displeasure over the dis-obedience of His OWN creation and could've just annihilated Iblees for showing extreme arrogance and dis-obedience, but He did not. He asked him, 'Why so, why do you not choose to bow down to man?"

And Iblees, said, 'Him?!! No way! I am way better than Him, I was made out of fire and fire is superior. why then i would acknowledge superiority of Man created out of mud, over me?! ( That was the audacity of iblees and he in his disobedience went far ahead and called God's creation not only inferior but, mocked and criticized man regarding his origin calling him to have arised from mud). And he willingly gave up the chance God gave him to offer his apologies.

So, Now after iblees having shown his true colors and nature, stepped down from obedience of God, out of jealousy and arrogance. Then Iblees asked God for one last favour, and God granted him.

He asked,' Let me have One chance to prove to you that I am better, I will deceive, mislead and trick man into disbelief and he will disobey you as much as I do and more. And then man , who you assign as your superior creation will be disgraceful and deny you , owing to my deceptive temptations. And there will be no place for them in heaven.'

God agreed and said, ' They might get deceived by you temporarily, but Man is my dearest, he will have the capability to come back to me and acknowledge his mistakes( grave or minor) and I shall forgive Man whenever he asks me for forgiveness! You will tire of deceiving man but I will not tire of forgiving him, lest he keeps seeking it to mend his ways, untill one day when I shall call upon all creation on the day of Judgment.'

' He shall be not like you, firm in arrogance and willing to burn in hell fire forever, he will be meek and humble and will recognize Me as His creator even if that knowledge is hidden from him.' And Except for those who abide by your terrifying deceptions which look charming on the exterior, but their pursuit will lead to hell where you and your companions will burn forever.'

Hence ,the earth and everything was created and Man was put into it for the test of his capabilities, (primarily those of, seeking His creator and seeking forgiveness for his dis-obedience even if in a moment of ignorance or arrogance, he got swept away by Iblees's temptations). The qualities, of seeking forgiveness and seeking his creator made man not only dear to God but also superior over all other creation.

The divine books carrying the Message of God and the Messengers were sent so that humanity was informed of the truth in time. Iblees ,the shaitaan said, 'I will lure man into the pleasures of this world and he will forget the reason of his creation, he will indulge in dis-obedience of God and i will be victorious ( inspite of the fact that he knows that his victory is hell bound and so is his loss, but such is the menace of shaitaan,'the fallen spirit' that he wants to satisfy his anger by making man burn with him in hell).

And sadly those who will choose the deception of iblees over the truth of God, would choose denial when the true message of God reached them, and they would hence choose hell for themselves. God has given iblees limited powers, and his tricks are weak in the eyes of faithful and believing, his deceptions usually reveal their ugly face when one chooses to indulge in them, its only man's repeated denial of evil and good that pushes him far away from the creator.

So, once this mortal universe reaches its decision point which Allah Subhanao Ta'lla (God) has promised iblees, man and all creation, The truth will reveal itself infront of everybody, the whole creation will turn into dust and infront of everybody then, Allah will create again for those who do not believe, but by that time it will be too late to believe because the trial time duration is only till our lives last in this world.

And giving yourself a chance to believe and seek that truth is every person's right upon himself. And the just use of that right determines one's secure postion in heaven or hell because creation is not going to be repeated again for trial as man will go through a fair trial only once on the day of judgment. Jealousy, anger, and the possibility to err will be no more and all other negative qualities will be removed from man, so will all the sufferings that he goes through..

So when a perfect world of no suffering exists in the form of heaven, and the sorrows of this world just have a temporary dulling effect, then why would somebody, sensible enough consider, grieving for a lifetime, holding on to one sorrow or the other, Better than focusing his energies and capabilities on something productive and of welfare in nature? Why would one want hell for themselves when heaven is desperately calling out for them for herself? Why not read about seeking heaven rather than showing anger to God as to why He made hell?

When a believing person knows that this world is just a test, and he has to show some patience to be the man that he was made to be,( unlike the infidel shaitaan who had no patience and could not wait to ask for a chance to destroy as much humanity as he could), it is just a wise and positive approach to let bygones be bygones and focus on the eternal future of glory and joy. Whichever way you look at it, it is the best approach even if you don't really believe in God, heaven, or hell . One day some will. InshAllah .
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
There is NO evidence hell exists, unlike compelling evidence that you can give yourself cancer by abusing your body!

On the contrary, anyone who knows their science knows that there is a mantle of earth over a core of fire. When the mantle is broken usually two things happen. At first fire is spewed forth; afterwards everything collapses back into the fiery depths. Everything upon the earth at the time is first melted and then subsumed into the core of the earth.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
The 'you must be saved' dogma is of course one of fear!

In that case I most graciously permit you to go to hell if you wish. Since you are now under no obligation to be saved, you can rationally address whether you really want to go there.
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
On the contrary, anyone who knows their science knows that there is a mantle of earth over a core of fire. When the mantle is broken usually two things happen. At first fire is spewed forth; afterwards everything collapses back into the fiery depths. Everything upon the earth at the time is first melted and then subsumed into the core of the earth.
How is this scientific evidence of hell? It isn't proven that anything lives in there.
 
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