The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[Imagist]

I do not avoid issues, I have maintained that this is something that God willNOT do. The issue of looking at this eternal hell suffering as if it is something God will do, is just as sick as the thing God is being blamed for, allowing this sick concept of torture to even exist in Eternity. Its just as sick to believe that God will do it, as it is to believe who he will do it to. It is IMPOSSIBLE for God to co-exist with misery forever. It would make God sick if he would do such a thing. I don't avoid the possibility, I just don't believe that God is dimwitted, holding power to eliminate such a thing, and not using the power. I don't view God as stupid or ignorant, thats how I view human reasonings.

Then you deny the bible, which clearly states:

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

BibleGateway.com - Passage*Lookup: Jude 1:7;

or this, directly from the mouth of Jesus:

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[a] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

BibleGateway.com - Passage*Lookup: Luke 16:19-16:31

Either your view of God is wrong, or the bible is wrong.

This isn't some sick concept made up by modern Christians; eternal suffering is and has been deeply and fundamentally linked with Christianity since its beginning.

Why would God co-exist in eternity with anything that he could simply will it out of existance? I would do it, and I am just human, do I hold more sense and wisdom than God? Of course not.

God is far more than what we are even able to imagine.

That's a good question. Don't you see how this points out a fundamental flaw in the concept of the Christian god? You can say that god wouldn't do these things, but the facts according to Christianity are written down, and the facts according to Christianity say that god is gonna fry me. So believe what you want, but if you choose not to believe in eternal suffering, you're choosing not to believe in the Christian god.

 

[Heneni]

Lets just for a minute pretend that this earth will be destroyed by some major natural disaster. When people realise that they are about to die, who will they call on for help? God probably. But the fair thing to do, is to require everyone to ask their own master for help. Does satan love us, or does he hate us? Will he be willing/able to save us/help us?

The bible says, it will be like in the days of noah...everyone will still be doing their thing...getting married, having babies, like there is no impeding danger...untill...there is. Who we are allowed to call on for help, might just be a very significant factor.

 

[Reverend Rick]

If you only had a concept of what eternity is like. Forever and ever, neverending. If you place any kind of continual punishing into eternity, that is insane. If you take a little small needle and stick a small portion of it into someones finger, it may sting for a second, but just think if you did it continually, every second of the day, and everyday of the week, on into a month and longer past a year, it would drive the person insane. If they could last a year. This is the perversion of continual pain for eternity.

Imagine being in a burning building compaired to the small needle in your example. And yet people turn away from the gift of salvation every day.

 

[Imagist]

Lets just for a minute pretend that this earth will be destroyed by some major natural disaster. When people realise that they are about to die, who will they call on for help? God probably. But the fair thing to do, is to require everyone to ask their own master for help. Does satan love us, or does he hate us? Will he be willing/able to save us/help us?

It seems to me that this is a very selfish way of looking at it. You would worship a god just because he can help you out, even if he does terrible things to others?

Imagine being in a burning building compaired to the small needle in your example. And yet people turn away from the gift of salvation every day.

Does it occur to you that this "burning building" of yours only exists because god created it? Why would you turn to the arsonist for help?

 

[Heneni]

It seems to me that this is a very selfish way of looking at it. You would worship a god just because he can help you out, even if he does terrible things to others?

Selfish? If someone is going to do terrible things to people it will be satan, not god. So why are you not in gods camp yet? You either have one or the other master you dont have both. If there was to be a disaster, you should rightly call upon your master and ask him to help you, but what you will get instead is a royal bashing, not from god, but from your trusted master. Its not my selfishness that makes you blind to gods goodness its yours. You are selfish for expecting god to save you when you havent given him the time of day.

And there is no SAVING that will happen in the future. The saving happened on the cross. If there was a disaster, youd have to trust your master to help you. Cause you wouldnt be able to help yourself against the forces of nature or the forces of the universe.

Is god cruel because he allows you to make your own choices? If god is choice A and you passed on choice A, there is only option B left. Cant have your toast buttered on both sides.

To fight against god, is like fighting against yourself. There will only be one looser. You. So make the right choice will ya?

 

[AK4]

This is what you said.



You did? Or do you want to strike that from the record?

The only difference is that god does not listen to the devil, but if we listen to him he becomes our master and loving him would mean you commit idolatory.

Nope i stand by it, you just dont know what your talking about. Read and understand, and lets go to the greek where these words were translated from. We are to have agape love toward each fellow like minded believer as in these verse:



Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love: even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his LOVE.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Strong's Number: 26[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/FONT]ajgavph[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]from (25)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Agape[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]1:21,5[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]ag-ah'-pay [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Noun Feminine [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Definition[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

1. brotherly love, affection, good will, love, benevolence
2. love feasts

[/FONT]
but for our enemies we are to have agapao love for them.


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Strong's Number: 25[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/FONT]ajgapavw[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]perhaps from agan (much) [or cf (5368)][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Agapao[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]1:21,5[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]ag-ap-ah'-o [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Verb [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Definition[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]

1. of persons
   1. to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly
2. of things
   1. to be well pleased, to be contented at or with a thing

[/FONT]

Now do you see a difference in the type of love we are to have for satan. Is he a person? NO! But he is a thing that God created for the sole purpose of tempting and putting man through trials. When God created satan he created him very good for what he was created for-- to be an accuser and adversary to man. And what God creates, it is good for the purpose he created it for--that includes me, you, Adam, Eve, satan, and especially Jesus.

I am (agapao) well pleased (or you can say i have respect) with the satan God created and the trials and tribulations God uses him to put me through. Because God doesnt tempt and cant be tempted.

My ex, i agapao her for the sole purpose the Father used her to drag me to Jesus. I do not have the agape love for her though.

It was a nice try though and dont strike that from the books either.

The only difference is that god does not listen to the devil, but if we listen to him he becomes our master and loving him would mean you commit idolatory

Oh and for this unscriptural statement, then what say you to this

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy F12 him without cause. 4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. 5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. 6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

Now was God talking to himself? Was God using evil (satan) here? Are you calling God a liar?

 

[mickiel]

Selfish? If someone is going to do terrible things to people it will be satan, not god. ?

Again, there is so much of evidence that we just don't know what we are talking about or believing. In Job 42:11, Jobs relatives comforted him from " All the Evil that THE LORD had BROUGHT on him." All the terrible things that happened to Job was brought on him by God! I mean its just plain and simple, but we don't know plain and simple, because we are blind.

In Job 1:10-12, God very plainly " Sicks satan" on Job, even made a bet with satan, daring him to bother Job.

But now this is plain revelation of the truth, something that bypasses the masses, and something other then the truth settles into mens minds.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

In Job 1:22;" Through ALL this Job didnot sin nor did he blame God." We see all kinds of post that look to blame God, because our understanding is blind. Its Gods fault, its really stating that its Gods RESPONSIBILITY, and you know, it really is. It IS Gods fault, or Gods responsibility, and Job trusted in that. He KNEW it was Gods doing, and THAT WAS his trust in God!

This is where we fail. We blame God, but don"t trust in God. This is truth in a nutshell, but nutshell thinking cannot figure out God. God has us covered! Oh, how he has this thing in hand. But we think Gods hand is short on saving. We then limit him, because WE are limited in our thoughts and beliefs. We think we need to rebuild what God has damaged.

We are NOT opened up to God.

Peace.

 

[Imagist]

Selfish? If someone is going to do terrible things to people it will be satan, not god. So why are you not in gods camp yet? You either have one or the other master you dont have both. If there was to be a disaster, you should rightly call upon your master and ask him to help you, but what you will get instead is a royal bashing, not from god, but from your trusted master. Its not my selfishness that makes you blind to gods goodness its yours. You are selfish for expecting god to save you when you havent given him the time of day.

God is the one sending people to hell, not satan. I'm not saying that satan is any good, I'm merely saying that I don't support eternal torture.

Is god cruel because he allows you to make your own choices? If god is choice A and you passed on choice A, there is only option B left. Cant have your toast buttered on both sides.

I never said that god was cruel because he allows people to make choices. He is cruel because he sends people to hell (at least, he is if you accept the Christian god).

In Job 1:10-12, God very plainly " Sicks satan" on Job, even made a bet with satan, daring him to bother Job.

You are trying to defend god, but your very defense makes god sound bad. Are you reading what you are typing? How is god sending satan after Job any better than a nazi sending a dog after an unfortunate Jew?

You have said over and over again that we are closed to god and that we are closed to god and that we don't believe in him, but you haven't responded to my point. We are closed to god because he is essentially evil, sending people to hell and creating monsters like Satan, Hiter, and Stalin. Either you disprove this point or you are wrong.

Please stop repeating yourself and respond to my point.

 

[AK4]

In Job 1:22;" Through ALL this Job didnot sin nor did he blame God." We see all kinds of post that look to blame God, because our understanding is blind. Its Gods fault, its really stating that its Gods RESPONSIBILITY, and you know, it really is. It IS Gods fault, or Gods responsibility, and Job trusted in that. He KNEW it was Gods doing, and THAT WAS his trust in God!

This is where we fail. We blame God, but don"t trust in God. This is truth in a nutshell, but nutshell thinking cannot figure out God. God has us covered! Oh, how he has this thing in hand. But we think Gods hand is short on saving. We then limit him, because WE are limited in our thoughts and beliefs. We think we need to rebuild what God has damaged.

We are NOT opened up to God.

Peace.

Tell em Mikiel!!! :clap

Let me take it a little further. Its not the problem of blaming God because He is responsible for it all, the problem is ACCUSING God of wrong doing. Job knew God was responsible and was the "blame" but Job didnt have the audacity to tell his God that He was wrong for doing what He was doing.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Job 1 Read This Chapter[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1:22 In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing. [/FONT]
(I like this translation)


Who is man to tell God He is wrong? Did He make this world the way it is for purpose? Yes, he has given man an experience of evil, so when he corrects everything in the future YOU WILL APPRECIATE THE GOOD THAT HE WILL GIVE EVERYONE WHO EVER LIVED.

 

[AK4]

God is the one sending people to hell, not satan. I'm not saying that satan is any good, I'm merely saying that I don't support eternal torture.



I never said that god was cruel because he allows people to make choices. He is cruel because he sends people to hell (at least, he is if you accept the Christian god).



You are trying to defend god, but your very defense makes god sound bad. Are you reading what you are typing? How is god sending satan after Job any better than a nazi sending a dog after an unfortunate Jew?

You have said over and over again that we are closed to god and that we are closed to god and that we don't believe in him, but you haven't responded to my point. We are closed to god because he is essentially evil, sending people to hell and creating monsters like Satan, Hiter, and Stalin. Either you disprove this point or you are wrong.

Please stop repeating yourself and respond to my point.

I just did in the post above.

 

[Heneni]

Are you calling God a liar?

This is getting a bit old now...it had some punch in it, when you first used it many years ago, but its getting stale on you right now.

 

[Heneni]

Tell em Mikiel!!! :clap

You really do need all the support you can get.

 

[roli]

I really am looking to understand God, but not this God that humans teach, but the real God of Love , Joy and Peace. Not this God of eternal hell punishing, but the God of Patience, forgiveness and Mercy. You know, the real God, not this insane lunatic that many are trying to pass God off as being. You know, this lunatic that will place humans in this eternal Pain amphlipier and punish them for billions upon trillions of untold time and on into infinity. I just can't imagine how out of control this hell fire belief has gotten. And how much these bloodthirsty christians who teach it have ruined Gods reputation.

The eternal punishing of anything, muchless a human, is a sick concept, yet many believers have swallowed it into their belief, hook, line and sinker. And THAT is evidence of just how much foolishness we will absorb.

Peace.

If God were not a just God, he'd be no God at all, being just and bringing about punishment in no way depicts a lack of love on his part, why is it people seem to portray him that way....or is it man that just want to live as they choose and so to justify themselves they paint God out to be some vengeful, hating, wrathful God.

I don';t know about you but a little fear of the power behind Niagra Falls does a life good and quite possibly prolongs it. Reverence and awe in it's natural power can be healthy.
If you muder, steal and commit any unlawful acts against civil or natrual laws you will suffer the consequence, will you then blame the one who brings justice down upon you for not demonstrating love.
Justice in no way proves love is absent.

 

[Heneni]

If God were not a just God, he'd be no God at all, being just and bringing about punishment in no way depicts a lack of love on his part, why is it people seem to portray him that way....or is it man that just want to live as they choose and so to justify themselves they paint God out to be some vengeful, hating, wrathful God.

I don';t know about you but a little fear of the power behind Niagra Falls does a life good and quite possibly prolongs it. Reverence and awe in it's natural power can be healthy.
If you muder, steal and commit any unlawful acts against civil or natrual laws you will suffer the consequence, will you then blame the one who brings justice down upon you for not demonstrating love.
Justice in no way proves love is absent.

Good point.

 

[Heneni]

God is the one sending people to hell, not satan. I'm not saying that satan is any good, I'm merely saying that I don't support eternal torture.

I dont support eternal torture either. This earth is hell. But if you like you can extend your temporary contract to a more permanent one elsewhere.

I never said that god was cruel because he allows people to make choices. He is cruel because he sends people to hell (at least, he is if you accept the Christian god).

God sends you with your master of choice on your way to eternal bliss.

You are trying to defend god, but your very defense makes god sound bad. Are you reading what you are typing? How is god sending satan after Job any better than a nazi sending a dog after an unfortunate Jew?

To prove a point you are not getting.

Please stop repeating yourself and respond to my point

If im repeating myself its because you dont get the point im making about your point.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

If God were not a just God, he'd be no God at all, being just and bringing about punishment in no way depicts a lack of love on his part, why is it people seem to portray him that way....or is it man that just want to live as they choose and so to justify themselves they paint God out to be some vengeful, hating, wrathful God.

I don';t know about you but a little fear of the power behind Niagra Falls does a life good and quite possibly prolongs it. Reverence and awe in it's natural power can be healthy.
If you muder, steal and commit any unlawful acts against civil or natrual laws you will suffer the consequence, will you then blame the one who brings justice down upon you for not demonstrating love.
Justice in no way proves love is absent.

Well stated.

 

[mickiel]

Mercy triumphs over judgement any day. Its not the act of discipline that is the question, its the outcome of the discipline that really matters with God. Why does God punish? He does it for reproof, for correction, for building and restoring, not for pain with no purpose. Or pain as being punishment. Pain or punishment that has no good result, is worthless and narrow. And the narrowminded adhere to it.

God is not narrowminded, humans are.

Peace.

 

[Imagist]

God is the one sending people to hell, not satan. I'm not saying that satan is any good, I'm merely saying that I don't support eternal torture.



I never said that god was cruel because he allows people to make choices. He is cruel because he sends people to hell (at least, he is if you accept the Christian god).



You are trying to defend god, but your very defense makes god sound bad. Are you reading what you are typing? How is god sending satan after Job any better than a nazi sending a dog after an unfortunate Jew?

You have said over and over again that we are closed to god and that we are closed to god and that we don't believe in him, but you haven't responded to my point. We are closed to god because he is essentially evil, sending people to hell and creating monsters like Satan, Hiter, and Stalin. Either you disprove this point or you are wrong.

Please stop repeating yourself and respond to my point.

I just did in the post above.

No, you didn't.

To reiterate, you are supposedly trying to prove that god is not essentially evil.

The closest thing to that in your post is:

Who is man to tell God He is wrong? Did He make this world the way it is for purpose? Yes, he has given man an experience of evil, so when he corrects everything in the future YOU WILL APPRECIATE THE GOOD THAT HE WILL GIVE EVERYONE WHO EVER LIVED.

"Who is man to tell God He is wrong?" essentially means "Don't question what I believe" which is not an argument, it's an order.

"Did He make this world the way it is for purpose? Yes, he has given man an experience of evil, so when he corrects everything in the future YOU WILL APPRECIATE THE GOOD THAT HE WILL GIVE EVERYONE WHO EVER LIVED."

The "he created evil so that you will appreciate when it's fixed" argument is ridiculous because I would appreciate more if the world were perfect. God supposedly controls the concept of appreciation, so he could have made me appreciate everything from manure to genocide, but he didn't; instead he created suffering and evil, which I very much DON'T appreciate.

Furthermore, god will not give good to everyone who ever lived, according to the bible. I have already disproved that by my previous bible quotes.

If God were not a just God, he'd be no God at all, being just and bringing about punishment in no way depicts a lack of love on his part, why is it people seem to portray him that way....or is it man that just want to live as they choose and so to justify themselves they paint God out to be some vengeful, hating, wrathful God.

Let's see, we have vengeful:

10 But that day belongs to the LORD, the Lord Almighty—
a day of vengeance, for vengeance on his foes.

BibleGateway.com - Keyword*Search: vengeance

We also have wrathful:

28 In furious anger and in great wrath the LORD uprooted them from their land and thrust them into another land, as it is now."

BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in over 35 languages and 50 versions.

Seems like I don't need to justify myself by "paint[ing] God out to be some vengeful, hating, wrathful God." He's already painted himself that way.

I don';t know about you but a little fear of the power behind Niagra Falls does a life good and quite possibly prolongs it. Reverence and awe in it's natural power can be healthy.

But god is not a mindless stream of water; he actively chooses to cause death, destruction, and overall suffering.

If you muder, steal and commit any unlawful acts against civil or natrual laws you will suffer the consequence, will you then blame the one who brings justice down upon you for not demonstrating love.

If I harm another person, I can't blame the one who punishes me. But only a small fraction of the suffering caused by god is punishment. The most of the suffering in the world was created by god for no apparent reason.

Mercy triumphs over judgement any day. Its not the act of discipline that is the question, its the outcome of the discipline that really matters with God. Why does God punish? He does it for reproof, for correction, for building and restoring, not for pain with no purpose. Or pain as being punishment. Pain or punishment that has no good result, is worthless and narrow. And the narrowminded adhere to it.

God is not narrowminded, humans are.

What good result comes from eternal suffering in hell? It seems to me that this is "worthless and narrow", but god caused it. I guess that makes god narrowminded...

 

[mickiel]

There is no such thing as eternal hell suffering, but I don't expect an Atheist to believe that, because there is a growing number of Atheist that have been influenced by this degrading belief, even Atheist can be narrow in their view.

I find it rather narrow that an Atheist would believe in eternal hell suffering.

Peace.