The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[mickiel]

I

Heaven is gods home..among many things. There is no point in saving the entire human race, if they go there and tell god how to run the place (AGAIN).

The wicked therefore, have an alternative...stay here. Also have you considered the fact that there are truly millions of people who think god is a monster. Theid probably have to be dragged into the pearly gates in order for god to say hello to them.! Dont think he'll wanna resort to violence to get somebody to say howzit, do you?:sad:

You underestimate Gods power, and overestimate our own. It is impossible for any being, muchless a human, to tell God how to do or run anything. There will be only one way to deal with God when he reveals himself, and that is to serve him. And God does not need violence to get his way. Oh he could use it, if he wants, and nothing could stop him.

No, humanity will be totally convinced by a combination of things, to submit to God. Power, Love and a unique opening of our minds and consciousness. PLUS the prior experience of living without God, will be our greatest example. We already know what it is like to be without him. Thats what we willnot want to go back to.

God knows how to change a human. There willnot be a human who rejects him in the finality of all these things combined. We will actually see him, and that seeing will result in believing.

Peace.

 

[Heneni]

You underestimate Gods power, and overestimate our own. It is impossible for any being, muchless a human, to tell God how to do or run anything. There will be only one way to deal with God when he reveals himself, and that is to serve him. And God does not need violence to get his way. Oh he could use it, if he wants, and nothing could stop him.

No, humanity will be totally convinced by a combination of things, to submit to God. Power, Love and a unique opening of our minds and consciousness. PLUS the prior experience of living without God, will be our greatest example. We already know what it is like to be without him. Thats what we willnot want to go back to.

God knows how to change a human. There willnot be a human who rejects him in the finality of all these things combined. We will actually see him, and that seeing will result in believing.

Peace.

We did not like the way things worked in heaven michel, which is why we are here. I'm not underestimating gods power to save, i'm rather considering gods desire to have a bunch of god haters in heaven, and frankly i'm sure, juding from this forum, there are a few who will set up protest the get out of heaven. He sent jesus HERE to save us. So HERE is the rope, of hope. I'm not underestimating gods power, I'm sure god could have just raptured us all to heaven after jesus died, since salvation was accomplished on the cross. That would have been powerful.


Blessed are those who HAVE NOT seen and yet believe. Let me put it this way......I'd like to see everyone in heaven. But i dont think everyone would like to see god. And frankly I dont think everyone cares.

About serving god....does god need anything from us? Do we bring something to god that he requires or he needs? Does god require servants? No...its the other way around. God brings US stuff everyday. He makes the sun come up, and he makes it go down. Do we need it. YES. He makes the grass and the trees grow, he upholds the universe. Do we need it? YES, if he didnt do any of the above, wed be dead by now.

So...god is OUR servant. We cant even if we tried serve GOD. So when you say that when people SEE god, they will be able to do nothing other than SERVE him, im wondering what is it, that you think god requires us to serve him with?

Serve, could mean a type of LOYALTY. Not a servant, but rather subordinate, or follower. In that case, you are assuming that when people SEE god, they will all automatically want to bow down and swear allegiance. Well.....if god cant get satan to do it,whats the hope for mankind? Still, there could be reason to believe that the entire human race will bow down and swear loyalty, allegiance, trust and faithfullness to god, but unless any or ALL of them have LOVE, they have nothing.

So then...does god require anything from us, other than LOVE? Does god require, hope for, or even desire anything other than LOVE? Do you think that when people SEE him, they will automatically fall in love with him? Possibly...though satan doesnt love him, and he has seen him more than all of us put together.

 

[mickiel]

You make some very good points, still, I am convinced of this one thing, no matter who understands it or not; God will get what he desires. In Job 23:13;" God is unique and who can turn him? What his soul desires, that he does." What does he desire? 1Tim. 2:4;" He desires that ALL humans be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth." And this is exactlly what is destined to occur. People openly reject God, because they don't know what they are doing.

When humans crucified Jesus on the cross, Jesus asked his Father to forgive them, because " They know not what they do." Men didn't know what they were doing then, and they still today, don't know what they are doing.

Listen, the destiny of humanity is summed up in Gods Holy Oath, or PROMISE to himself! In Isaiah 45:23 this promise, this Vow of Gods, is shown;"I have Sworn by myself, the word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and willNOT turn BACK, that to me EVERY kneee will bow, EVERY tongue will swear Allegiance to me."

Buddy, NOTHING can stop this vow of God from becomming the complette destiny of all of created humanity. Gods promise to himself, will result in the total rehabilitation of all of humanity. It does not matter what people believe, how they feel, how vehemently they reject God, none of that matters.

Not to God. He will bring us to our knees and we will swear complette heartfelt obedience to him. And we will live happily everafter with him.

This is the destiny of all humanity, so Swears God.

Peace.

 

[Heneni]

You make some very good points, still, I am convinced of this one thing, no matter who understands it or not; God will get what he desires. In Job 23:13;" God is unique and who can turn him? What his soul desires, that he does." What does he desire? 1Tim. 2:4;" He desires that ALL humans be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth." And this is exactlly what is destined to occur. People openly reject God, because they don't know what they are doing.

When humans crucified Jesus on the cross, Jesus asked his Father to forgive them, because " They know not what they do." Men didn't know what they were doing then, and they still today, don't know what they are doing.

Listen, the destiny of humanity is summed up in Gods Holy Oath, or PROMISE to himself! In Isaiah 45:23 this promise, this Vow of Gods, is shown;"I have Sworn by myself, the word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and willNOT turn BACK, that to me EVERY kneee will bow, EVERY tongue will swear Allegiance to me."

Buddy, NOTHING can stop this vow of God from becomming the complette destiny of all of created humanity. Gods promise to himself, will result in the total rehabilitation of all of humanity. It does not matter what people believe, how they feel, how vehemently they reject God, none of that matters.

Not to God. He will bring us to our knees and we will swear complette heartfelt obedience to him. And we will live happily everafter with him.

This is the destiny of all humanity, so Swears God.

Peace.

Of course god desires for ALL mankind to be saved. He doesnt pray that we dont get saved, he doesnt hope that we wont be saved, he doesnt work stuff out so that we wont be saved.

It doenst mean that ALL will take the rope of hope.

But anyway, this thread is not about universal salvation. I applaud your desire and hope for all mankind. But this i know...if god does not change the hearts and minds of people before they get to heaven, we'll have another earth in no time.

 

[mickiel]

Of course god desires for ALL mankind to be saved. He doesnt pray that we dont get saved, he doesnt hope that we wont be saved, he doesnt work stuff out so that we wont be saved.

It doenst mean that ALL will take the rope of hope.

But anyway, this thread is not about universal salvation. I applaud your desire and hope for all mankind. But this i know...if god does not change the hearts and minds of people before they get to heaven, we'll have another earth in no time.

This thread is all about Universal Salvation, and nothing but. There is no " If" God does not change the hearts and minds of people, he will.

Thats why we were created in the first place, to live. We were not created to " Choose if we will live", our destiny is not our choice. Our destiny is Gods desire, its Gods will, its Gods choice. Its Gods, not we ourselves. You keep leaving room for humans to choose their destiny. God has not based our destiny on our choice, too many of us are stupid enough to choose anything but God.

Salvation is too important to God for him to leave it to human choice.

Peace.

 

[nightfly]

This thread is all about Universal Salvation, and nothing but. There is no " If" God does not change the hearts and minds of people, he will.

Thats why we were created in the first place, to live. We were not created to " Choose if we will live", our destiny is not our choice. Our destiny is Gods desire, its Gods will, its Gods choice. Its Gods, not we ourselves. You keep leaving room for humans to choose their destiny. God has not based our destiny on our choice, too many of us are stupid enough to choose anything but God.

Salvation is too important to God for him to leave it to human choice.

Peace.

mickiel, you are so right! We do not have no choice with GOD! Good post !

 

[Heneni]

This thread is all about Universal Salvation, and nothing but. There is no " If" God does not change the hearts and minds of people, he will.

Thats why we were created in the first place, to live. We were not created to " Choose if we will live", our destiny is not our choice. Our destiny is Gods desire, its Gods will, its Gods choice. Its Gods, not we ourselves. You keep leaving room for humans to choose their destiny. God has not based our destiny on our choice, too many of us are stupid enough to choose anything but God.

Salvation is too important to God for him to leave it to human choice.

Peace.

Oh dear, well i dont want to go to heaven!!!!! Please can I stay????:foot:

(just kidding).

I have a very different perspective on why I am here in the first place. Destiny is such a catchy term. It inspires dreams and visions and hope.

But..i am an eternal being. I existed before this earth was created. I knew god and he knew me. My destiny was not to fall into sin. My god did not look at me, talk to me, love me and care for me, knowing that he destined me to come here. I am not here, because god has destined me to come here. I'm here because I wanted to rule myself. I want to return to my god, because I miss him and love him.

Destiny is a term loosly applied by christians who want to feel like they have a purpose. Does the lily in the field ask itself.... WHAT IS MY PURPOSE? What should I be today? What should I do today? Where am I going to tomorrow? What is my destiny?

Its designed to be a lily. I am designed to be deity. And I understand and fully comprehend my fall, and the brokeness of my spirit due to my recklessness and rebellion. I am far less than I was created to be. Its not my destiny to return to my god, its my hope and my joy, and my reason for going on each day. If it was my destiny, id take it for granted. Id sit around and wait for destiny to arrive. I'd wollow in my own self-pity, or worse id pride myself in my accomplishments, id think of myself as worthy to be in his presence. Id think, id deserve him. Its my destiny. I dont deserve anything! What he has done for me, what he has accomplished for me, is nothing compared to the betrayal, the rebellion, and the lack of love, i showed my maker.

Its not my destiny to return to god. It is my hope. And since I hope and long for him to return, i have faith in him, trust him, obey him, love him. If it was my destiny to be with him, id have no reason to obey, to love, or to trust. Id be a stranger in heaven.

Thanks anyway for your response. I love the fact that YOU have hope for mankind. And i'm sure that god shares your feelings. And I'm sure if it depends on god, and as far as our hard hearts will allow him entry into it, and our lives surrendered and willing to be given up, so that we can find new life, we will all be saved.

But what salvation is NOT...is destiny.

Destiny to me....is a destination...and we are all on our journey to somewhere. Salvation is a rescue not a destination.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I am curious, do you know someone who is not having trouble? Or are you suggesting that you have no trouble understanding certain things in your life experiences?

Peace.

No, I am suggesting I can see why you are having trouble understanding the concept of the God presented in the Bible. It is not apparent that you have done even a cursory study of the Biblical God nor is it apparent you can even follow a statement and make a pertainant and coherent reply to such.

 

[mickiel]

No, I am suggesting I can see why you are having trouble understanding the concept of the God presented in the Bible. It is not apparent that you have done even a cursory study of the Biblical God nor is it apparent you can even follow a statement and make a pertainant and coherent reply to such.

I hold no intrest in your view of me, nor am I inclinded to respond to your insults.

My words are simply not for you.

Peace.

 

[Imagist]

It matters not to me how many people are sold on there being eternal suffering, I kind of think that those who die hard believe it, would eat popcorn and watch the suffering, because they really desire it to happen. They crave it, yearn for it, which is why they defend it. Its their view of God, and its a horrible view.

In Romans 5:18, is the key to eternal life for all of humanity. Because of one mans sin, that resulted in the condemnation of all. And that resulted in a growing amount of hell doctrines, birthed from this condemnation of all men. But what men refuse to see is the latter part of verse, through the righteous act of another man, Jesus Christ, that RESULTED in the Justification of that SAME ALL MEN!

Its a done deal, we all make it! That is the Good News.

Peace.

Do you deny that the bible references a lake of fire and the throwing of people into it, or do you not believe in the bible?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I hold no intrest in your view of me, nor am I inclinded to respond to your insults.

My words are simply not for you.

Peace.

Yes, I cannot seem to find my gibberish translator.

 

[mickiel]

Do you deny that the bible references a lake of fire and the throwing of people into it, or do you not believe in the bible?

I have never denied those things because they are true. The bible most certainly asserts that humans are thrown into the Lake of Fire, but it also states that the Lake was " Prepared for satan and his demons", not for humans. So I believe the reason for the Lake, is different for humans, as compared to what God is getting out of it for Demons. I think demons are doomed, and will be destroyed in the Lake, but not humans.

In Revelations 21:5-6, God says that he is " Making ALL things New", and further states that he is GIVING the water of Life WITHOUT COST!" I am highly motivated in mind and belief by these promises, to make everything new and Give Salvation without a cost or demand to it.

I just think it spells Salvation for everyone, and shows the great hope we can have in God.

Peace.

 

[AK4]

I dont remember if i posted this here but oh well

Before i give you just some of the MANY scriptures that will debunk this GWT Judgement scenario, lets make this person who is getting judged be you, YOUR NAME HERE. Lets see if you still love this knid of a god and where your heart is.



god: YOUR NAME HERE , you are judged guilty and now i will destroy you, YOUR NAME HERE , forever (or barbeque you for those who believe in a hell). Yeah I know I created you, YOUR NAME HERE , for dishonor and you had no choice in that matter and yes I know I said numerous times in my word that I am a god of love and rich in mercies, but you, YOUR NAME HERE , have served your purpose of dishonor. Yes I did create you, YOUR NAME HERE , along with creation in subject of vanity, not willingly, and with hope, but Im sorry, well not really because you, YOUR NAME HERE , knew my standards and you didnt live up to them. You, YOUR NAME HERE , fail short ONLY here. See you , YOUR NAME HERE ,were timid and fearful and because of that i must annihilate you, YOUR NAME HERE , (or barbeque) in my very hot and steamy lake of fire that is unquenchable and the worm never rots. Its final. You, YOUR NAME HERE , had one shot and blew it. Yes,yes, I judge in righteousness and this is fair. I created you, YOUR NAME HERE , for dishonor and that was your purpose. You, YOUR NAME HERE , have no other purpose and now i will focus on the 10% of all humanity that has ever lived that i gave my grace to and they followed. I love them more than i love you, YOUR NAME HERE , and they are my favorites now. Thank you for doing everything i wanted you,YOUR NAME HERE , to do and now good(bad)-bye!! ( I didnt capitolize god in any of that because that is not a god i would worship)


21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Quote:
Again, this is just how you feel, not what the bible teaches. You give me no proof. Just saying that "all will be saved in the name of Jesus" doesn't do it.

Again think about this scenario. And again, do you believe God teaches this in his Word. Do you think this is justice? Fair? Just for being timid and fearful?

This not how i feel and it sure isnt what He teaches in His Word.

Dont just think about this, PRAY ABOUT THIS.

ps--And this is the good new gospel that was to be preached to the world?! When we even Jesus said no one can come to Him unless Father draws/drags them.
So in your interpretation of the Word, someone who dont chose to follow Christ is condemned forever when THE ONLY WAY TO HIM IS IF THE FATHER DRAWS HIM---do you see a contradiction there.

 

[mickiel]

Interesting bit of writting AK4.

One thing about God. He has got to be very, VERY, Powerful, and such power as his, just will demand results. But listen, God is Love, Peace, Mercy, Paitence, Kindness, Gentleness, and all these things at far greater levels than we know. EVERYTHING that God wants to get done, get accomplished, therefore MUST be done by these charactheristices that he holds in the highest! And the results will REFLECT God! Reflect his characther, his ways and means.

Thus, our future, our destiny, our only hope, truly rest in these ways of God! And that speaks good for us, we are VERY fortunate that God is how he is, and NOT how men teach him to be.

Once a human mind understands this, understands God, there will be no room for failure in ANY humans destiny. Because there is no room for it in Gods mind. In Gods Heart.

Peace.

 

[Heneni]

Thus, our future, our destiny, our only hope, truly rest in these ways of God! And that speaks good for us, we are VERY fortunate that God is how he is, and NOT how men teach him to be.

Peace.

Your a man too...and you could be teaching us something that god is NOT.

You dont seem to understand that if it was as wonderful as you make it out to be...and dont misunderstand me..id love for it to be as you have described, god would have to force people into heaven that dont want to be there.

Who doesnt want to go to heaven? You'd be surprised! Most people find the idea boring. They wonder what they are going to do there anyway. And singing halleluja songs to god every second of eternity seems quite understandably a bit over the top. I'm sure that if the boat started sinking people wouldnt mind getting into a life boat, only because they know it can save them, but the cold water of the ocean is hardly nicer than the luxury of the boat. And if god saved humankind...some will really miss being on the boat!

I think you are underestimating the importance of a relationship with god.

 

[mickiel]

Your a man too...and you could be teaching us something that god is NOT.

You dont seem to understand that if it was as wonderful as you make it out to be...and dont misunderstand me..id love for it to be as you have described, god would have to force people into heaven that dont want to be there.
.

You don't seem to understand that it is nothing to God to use force. God is force, or power, and why would he not use his power to deliver his creations into life eternal? It does not matter to God what people want and don't want. Notice Philippians 3:21, God has the Power to " Subject all things to himself." You don't seem to get that. God will subject all humans who do not want to be with him. And he is perfectly able to change their minds, their outlook on things, their outlook on themselves. Doing that is absolutely nothing to God, its very easy for him to get his way, their is no oppisition to his will, certainly not a humans disposition to be with him.

There is no such thing as opposing God, there is no choice in this. We will be with him, no matter how foolish we imagine being in heaven is like, and this constant singing songs to him and heaven being boring is rediculus, fairy tale like description of heaven. Its an insult to Gods intelligence to assume that his world is boring. THIS life we now live is what is boring and sinful.

My goodness, the things we allow to enter into our minds is just as rediculus.

Peace.

 

[Heneni]

You don't seem to understand that it is nothing to God to use force. God is force, or power, and why would he not use his power to deliver his creations into life eternal? It does not matter to God what people want and don't want. Notice Philippians 3:21, God has the Power to " Subject all things to himself." You don't seem to get that. God will subject all humans who do not want to be with him. And he is perfectly able to change their minds, their outlook on things, their outlook on themselves. Doing that is absolutely nothing to God, its very easy for him to get his way, their is no oppisition to his will, certainly not a humans disposition to be with him.

There is no such thing as opposing God, there is no choice in this. We will be with him, no matter how foolish we imagine being in heaven is like, and this constant singing songs to him and heaven being boring is rediculus, fairy tale like description of heaven. Its an insult to Gods intelligence to assume that his world is boring. THIS life we now live is what is boring and sinful.

My goodness, the things we allow to enter into our minds is just as rediculus.

Peace.

I find the idea of god dragging me into heaven kicking and screaming rediculous.

I'm curious..do you think that god will give satan another go?

 

[AK4]

Interesting bit of writting AK4.

One thing about God. He has got to be very, VERY, Powerful, and such power as his, just will demand results. But listen, God is Love, Peace, Mercy, Paitence, Kindness, Gentleness, and all these things at far greater levels than we know. EVERYTHING that God wants to get done, get accomplished, therefore MUST be done by these charactheristices that he holds in the highest! And the results will REFLECT God! Reflect his characther, his ways and means.

Thus, our future, our destiny, our only hope, truly rest in these ways of God! And that speaks good for us, we are VERY fortunate that God is how he is, and NOT how men teach him to be.

Once a human mind understands this, understands God, there will be no room for failure in ANY humans destiny. Because there is no room for it in Gods mind. In Gods Heart.

Peace.

I couldnt agree more

 

[mickiel]

I find the idea of god dragging me into heaven kicking and screaming rediculous.

I'm curious..do you think that god will give satan another go?

Hes not going to drag you, hes going to unlock common sense in your mind, and you will run willingly into heaven, once you are shed of your foolishness. Its just idiotic for a human to even conceive or entertain the thought of rejecting complette happiness, just stupid reasonings. Well, anyway, thats just more evidence of how much we need God, he has to save some of us from ourselves. Good greif.

As far as satan being given another go, good greif, where do these beliefs come from? satan is as doomed as the flesh of humans is, there will be no futre for satan. He was created to be a destructive force, and he himself will be destroyed, he is not life as we understand it to be. He is destruction, and God will destroy the destruction, not change it or recreate it. His purpose will have been complette.

Peace.

 

[Heneni]

Hes not going to drag you, hes going to unlock common sense in your mind, and you will run willingly into heaven, once you are shed of your foolishness. Its just idiotic for a human to even conceive or entertain the thought of rejecting complette happiness, just stupid reasonings. Well, anyway, thats just more evidence of how much we need God, he has to save some of us from ourselves. Good greif.

As far as satan being given another go, good greif, where do these beliefs come from? satan is as doomed as the flesh of humans is, there will be no futre for satan. He was created to be a destructive force, and he himself will be destroyed, he is not life as we understand it to be. He is destruction, and God will destroy the destruction, not change it or recreate it. His purpose will have been complette.

Peace.

I'll be the first to admit that god has some pretty impressive convincing tactics. But when Jesus walked on this earth...he didnt convince THOUSANDS.

God will destroy satan? But I thought god has some pretty impressive convincing powers? Shouldnt satan after two thousand years have been convinced by now? If god is going to save the entire human race, why not give old nick another go as well. You said that god is not reluctant to use power. (Although gods kingdom is built on love not power)

And if satan was created to be destroyed...then his children probably are too, and the same bible that you imply hints towards universal salvation, calls some...children of the devil.

In all honesty you cannot advocate the salvation of all humankind unless you consider the fact that god...who is merciful and kind and loving..wont use that same power to save satan. But you draw the line at satan dont you...its ok if god saves all of us...but old nick...well, NO! He is destined for destruction. He is a creation of god as well, what makes you think your better than him?