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The Situation in Egypt
- Thread starter croak
- Start date
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
So what IS the Muslim Brotherhood's position on Israel?
Bismillah
Submit
The answer is self evident I don't understand how one cannot come to the obvious answer.
Muslim Brotherhood:
Muslim Brotherhood:
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
OK - some more from the MB website:
The Aim is the Foundation and the Work Stems From it
Since the aim was what originally impelled us to follow the path, it became necessary that we reclarify and redefine this aim as it had become obscure and confused: I suspect that we have succeeded in doing so, and have come to the conclusion that it is our duty to establish Allah’s sovereignty over the world. To guide all of humanity to the precepts of Islam and its teachings (without which mankind cannot attain happiness).
The Origins of Our Goal
It is precisely this aim which the Muslim Brotherhood wish to advocate, so that the Islamic Ummah understands it as it ought to be understood, and they are thus procured to salvage mankind with full determination and energy. They have not fabricated it, nor have they invented it of their own accord. It is no more than the message which is apparent in every verse of the Noble Qur"an, a message which emerges with clarity and precision in every Hadeeth of the Prophet (PBUH), is manifest in every deed of the first Muslims (who are the best examples for the proper understanding of Islam and its revival).
My dear brother in Islam , take it easy! What you consider today as obscure and far away was commonplace to your predecessors. Your striving (jihad) will never bear fruit until it becomes just that- believe me, the earliest Muslims understood the Noble Qur"an the first time they read it: what we are handing on to you today was revealed to them.
I say to you in sincerely that the creed of the Muslim Brotherhood is what they live by: they place their hope for the good in it, and they die because of it. They see in it whatever comfort, beauty, felicity, and truth their souls aspire to:
Dear brothers, if you agree with us on this principle, know that your allegiance to Allah (SWT) compels you to evaluate the important duty which has been placed on your shoulders. So be active in working for this and know that sacrifice lies in it’s way. So are you from these workers?
The Right of Humanity
Allah then commanded them to strive to their utmost for His sake, by spreading this message and making it universal amongst man with argument and proof, even if they scorned at it recklessly unjustly and rebelliously, with both the sword and the tongue.
And if mankind has oppressed the clear evidence and has been
reckless than war is better in this world than peace.
Monks by Night and Knights by Day
Then Al-Haqq (SWT) showed mankind the connection between the individual responsibility, such as prayer and fasting, with ones responsibility towards the community, showing them that the first was a means to the second, and that the correct belief was the foundation of both of these, so that there could be no way for some people to shirk their individual obligations by arguing that they were carrying out their communal ones, nor could there be any way for others to shirk their communal duty with the argument that they were preoccupied with their ritual obligations totally absorbed in their communion with Allah . How precise and wise is the saying, "Who is fairer in speech than Allah?"
O Muslims, worshipping your Lord, striving to make your religion strong, and honouring your Sacred Law, is your duty in this life. For if you perform these as they should be performed, you will be amongst those who are saved; but if you perform only some of them or neglect them altogether, then I quote to you the words of Allah (SWT):
From the descriptions of the Companions of Muhammad (PBUH), since Allah chose them above His creation, and the pious forefathers, occurs the following: ‘Monks by night and knights by day.’ You can just see one of them at night, standing in his oratory, clutching his beard, sincerely murmuring and weeping saying: ‘O world, allure some other than myself!’ And when at the break of dawn and the call to arms rings out, summoning the fighter to jihad, you would seen him, a wolf on the back of his mount, shouting the war cry, which the entire battlefield resounded with.
An Imperialism of Education and Reform
The Muslims have travelled to the furthest countries of the earth with the Qur’an on their chests, their homes on their saddles and their swords in their hands, and with the clear proof on the tips of their tongues, inviting mankind to accept Islam or the paying of jizya, or else face combat. Anyone who accepted Islam became their brother; what was theirs became his too. Anyone who paid the jizya was under their protection and liability, they stood by his rights, observing the pact made with him, and faithfully keeping to the conditions accepted by him. Anyone who remained unyielding was fought by them until God granted them victory.
Ikhwanweb :: The Muslim Brotherhood Official English Website
The Aim is the Foundation and the Work Stems From it
Since the aim was what originally impelled us to follow the path, it became necessary that we reclarify and redefine this aim as it had become obscure and confused: I suspect that we have succeeded in doing so, and have come to the conclusion that it is our duty to establish Allah’s sovereignty over the world. To guide all of humanity to the precepts of Islam and its teachings (without which mankind cannot attain happiness).
The Origins of Our Goal
It is precisely this aim which the Muslim Brotherhood wish to advocate, so that the Islamic Ummah understands it as it ought to be understood, and they are thus procured to salvage mankind with full determination and energy. They have not fabricated it, nor have they invented it of their own accord. It is no more than the message which is apparent in every verse of the Noble Qur"an, a message which emerges with clarity and precision in every Hadeeth of the Prophet (PBUH), is manifest in every deed of the first Muslims (who are the best examples for the proper understanding of Islam and its revival).
My dear brother in Islam , take it easy! What you consider today as obscure and far away was commonplace to your predecessors. Your striving (jihad) will never bear fruit until it becomes just that- believe me, the earliest Muslims understood the Noble Qur"an the first time they read it: what we are handing on to you today was revealed to them.
I say to you in sincerely that the creed of the Muslim Brotherhood is what they live by: they place their hope for the good in it, and they die because of it. They see in it whatever comfort, beauty, felicity, and truth their souls aspire to:
‘Has not time come for those who believe that their hearts should be effected by Allah’s remainder and that which has been sent down as the truth? Lest they become like those who received the scripture before them, and the term was prolonged for them and so their hearts hardened? and many of them were transgressors.’
(Surat-al-Hadeed (57), ayah 16)
(Surat-al-Hadeed (57), ayah 16)
The Right of Humanity
Allah then commanded them to strive to their utmost for His sake, by spreading this message and making it universal amongst man with argument and proof, even if they scorned at it recklessly unjustly and rebelliously, with both the sword and the tongue.
And if mankind has oppressed the clear evidence and has been
reckless than war is better in this world than peace.
Monks by Night and Knights by Day
Then Al-Haqq (SWT) showed mankind the connection between the individual responsibility, such as prayer and fasting, with ones responsibility towards the community, showing them that the first was a means to the second, and that the correct belief was the foundation of both of these, so that there could be no way for some people to shirk their individual obligations by arguing that they were carrying out their communal ones, nor could there be any way for others to shirk their communal duty with the argument that they were preoccupied with their ritual obligations totally absorbed in their communion with Allah . How precise and wise is the saying, "Who is fairer in speech than Allah?"
O Muslims, worshipping your Lord, striving to make your religion strong, and honouring your Sacred Law, is your duty in this life. For if you perform these as they should be performed, you will be amongst those who are saved; but if you perform only some of them or neglect them altogether, then I quote to you the words of Allah (SWT):
‘Did you then think that We created you in play (without a purpose), and that you would not be brought back to Us? Almighty is Allah the King, the Truth!’
(Surat-an-Nur (23), ayahs 115-116)
(Surat-an-Nur (23), ayahs 115-116)
An Imperialism of Education and Reform
The Muslims have travelled to the furthest countries of the earth with the Qur’an on their chests, their homes on their saddles and their swords in their hands, and with the clear proof on the tips of their tongues, inviting mankind to accept Islam or the paying of jizya, or else face combat. Anyone who accepted Islam became their brother; what was theirs became his too. Anyone who paid the jizya was under their protection and liability, they stood by his rights, observing the pact made with him, and faithfully keeping to the conditions accepted by him. Anyone who remained unyielding was fought by them until God granted them victory.
Ikhwanweb :: The Muslim Brotherhood Official English Website
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Thanks, Abibi, for the clarification. From your source:
A spokesman for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt on Thursday evening repeatedly refused to commit to maintaining the peace treaty with Israel, or even recognizing Israel, if the Brotherhood becomes a player in the future governance of Egypt.
Asked on CNN if his organization would support the maintenance of the Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty, Mohamed Morsy, a spokesman for the Muslim Brotherhood, dodged a direct answer but said Israel had failed to honor the treaty. He said it would be up to the Egyptian parliament to decide on the fate of the treaty, and that the parliament would reflect the will of the people.
Asked next if an Egypt with a Muslim Brotherhood component in government would even recognize the state of Israel, Morsy again evaded a direct answer despite being pressed several times. “It’s ridiculous to ask about the future,” he said at one point, and then responded with the question: “Does Israel recognize a Palestinian state?”
He also accused Israel of “shedding the blood of the Palestinians for more than 60 years.”
Morsy added that the Brotherhood “are not against the Jews. We are against Zionism. We are against torturing the Palestinian people.”
Morsy also said the Muslim Brotherhood opposed violence. “We do not use violence against anyone,” he said. But what was happening on “Palestinian land,” however, he said, was not violence but “resistance. And resistance is acceptable by all mankind. And it is the right of people to resist imperialism,” he said.
So - do you still maintain the position that Westerners should not be concerned about the future of Israel if the Muslim Brotherhood rises to power in Egypt?
Are Westerners paranoid? Or do you consider the fate of Israel to be simply "none of our business?"
A spokesman for the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt on Thursday evening repeatedly refused to commit to maintaining the peace treaty with Israel, or even recognizing Israel, if the Brotherhood becomes a player in the future governance of Egypt.
Asked on CNN if his organization would support the maintenance of the Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty, Mohamed Morsy, a spokesman for the Muslim Brotherhood, dodged a direct answer but said Israel had failed to honor the treaty. He said it would be up to the Egyptian parliament to decide on the fate of the treaty, and that the parliament would reflect the will of the people.
Asked next if an Egypt with a Muslim Brotherhood component in government would even recognize the state of Israel, Morsy again evaded a direct answer despite being pressed several times. “It’s ridiculous to ask about the future,” he said at one point, and then responded with the question: “Does Israel recognize a Palestinian state?”
He also accused Israel of “shedding the blood of the Palestinians for more than 60 years.”
Morsy added that the Brotherhood “are not against the Jews. We are against Zionism. We are against torturing the Palestinian people.”
Morsy also said the Muslim Brotherhood opposed violence. “We do not use violence against anyone,” he said. But what was happening on “Palestinian land,” however, he said, was not violence but “resistance. And resistance is acceptable by all mankind. And it is the right of people to resist imperialism,” he said.
So - do you still maintain the position that Westerners should not be concerned about the future of Israel if the Muslim Brotherhood rises to power in Egypt?
Are Westerners paranoid? Or do you consider the fate of Israel to be simply "none of our business?"
kai
ragamuffin
So we leave politics out of it and just concentrate on pictures of the protests? what of the political aspirations of the protesters? we ignore whats going on politically? we ignore the organised opposition and concentrate on the pictures and films of the protests?
The Government met opposition groups including the MB yesterday is that not whats happening in Egypt NOW?
El Baradai is proposing a one-year transitional period where Egypt would be run by a three-member presidential council as it prepared for elections. is that not pertinent? or is that OK because its not a MB idea ?although i am sure they will be represented.
This is a "middle Eastern Politics" forum called "the situation in Egypt"?
I find it astonishing certain members do not wish to discuss the political outcome of Mubarak's government ending its rule in the coming months ?
Alceste
Vagabond
Kai, it is only that obsessing about one of the many opposition groups from across the political spectrum working together to bring democracy to Egypt is both boring and ignorant. I know it's comforting to paint the "other" with a broad, worrying brush - it simplifies a complicated world and helps to justify the job of a soldier. Talk about the MB if you're so desperate to do so, but talk about el Baradei ALSO. He's emerging as something of a leader and spokesperson for the movement. Talk about the 25 January Youth. Talk about Omar Suleiman, who is emerging as a leader and spokesperson for the current establishment, which the US continues to back. Talk about the parliamentary record of the opposition leaders and give your thoughts on how capable they might prove to be at delivering on the democratization, civil liberties, social justice and opportunity the protestors are demanding.
In short, this is about Egypt, not the MB. The topic is broader that just the West's fear and loathing of swarthy, kneeling men in turbans, and more complex and fascinating.
In short, this is about Egypt, not the MB. The topic is broader that just the West's fear and loathing of swarthy, kneeling men in turbans, and more complex and fascinating.
Alceste
Vagabond
Also, if any discussion of Egypt MUST entail nothing but hand-wringing about Muslims entering politics, why don't we talk about the PRESENT-DAY EGYPTIAN branch (the branch with sitting members in parliament), and whether their record on social welfare and democratic reform is better or worse than Mubarak's NDP.
kai
ragamuffin
whos obsessing ? simple answers to simple questions are all thats asked and i dont mind talking about any of the opposition figures or organisations but can we possibly do it one at a time to avoid confusion. If we lay off the stereotypes and "phobias" and just stick to Politics that fine by me ,its just no one is answering questions on the MB the biggest organised opposition party in Egypt today. Who by the way have thrown their support behind Al Baradai to negotiate with the government.
kai
ragamuffin
Ok lets talk about the present day Egyptian branch! thats what i and others have been trying to do. you tell me whats the MBs manifesto say about Government? I mean what are the sitting independent Members in Parliaments record on anything? I dont think the MB has finalised its manifesto since the draft was released a few years ago that caused uproar by shredding all the rhetoric the MB was using on about a civil state. even that is incredibly hard to find a source to.
In August, under pressure to provide a degree of insight into its policy orientations, the group"s leadership distributed a preliminary draft of its official party manifesto. Hoping to avoid unnecessary controversy, only a select handful of academics and civil society figures received copies of the document.
Despite this precaution, however, contents of the draft were soon leaked to the local press. In the ensuing debate, critics seized upon two aspects of the document, which, they claimed, confirmed the "undemocratic" nature of the Islamist movement.
http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=14803
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kai
ragamuffin
no one knows anything or doesnt want to talk about it so i guess we haven't really got started , But I suppose i will have to be if no one is interested in what i believe will possibly be the power behind the next Government in Egypt. Ah well apathy!!!
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Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I think it's pathetic that when the Muslim Brotherhood - the largest political group in Egypt, and one that is at the forefront of the "situation in Egypt" - is questioned about it's political motives in that region and how their goals impact that region, including but not limited to Israel (excuse me - PALESTINE), immediately the Middle Eastern version of the race card - "fear of swarthy men wearing turbans" - is thrown on the table with righteous indignation.
CHEAP SHOT. And quite tacky.
But, not surprising. Demonizing those who may not agree with you is exactly the tactic you're accusing others of. So hypocritical!
I for one am absolutely opposed to prejudices such as this one, and I think my life has proven this. In fact, I have a son in law whose stepfather is Muslim, and had such a positive influence in his life that he and my daughter gave their first child an obviously Arabic first name to honor him. I have several moderate Muslim friends and acquaintances and customers who I interact with on a regular basis, and every one of them would be welcome in my home at any time (and some have taken me up on that invitation). I don't have to prove to anyone on this forum that I am not paranoid or prejudiced when it comes to Muslims though -because my friends and customers know that I am most definitely NOT - and really they are who matter to me.
As I have stated ad nauseum - I am not opposed to Islam - I am opposed to Muslim EXTREMISTS - especially those whose PREJUDICES toward the West and Israel -oops, Jews occupying Palestine - is as blatant as those who support the ideals and goals of the Muslim Brotherhood.
You may not want to discuss the MB on this thread, and frankly I don't blame you. The more I dig into their own words from their own site, the more unsavory they look - and as their influence in "the situation in Egypt" grows, I will continue to question their goals on this thread, and others, and hold them accountable for their part in past, present and future events.
CHEAP SHOT. And quite tacky.
But, not surprising. Demonizing those who may not agree with you is exactly the tactic you're accusing others of. So hypocritical!
I for one am absolutely opposed to prejudices such as this one, and I think my life has proven this. In fact, I have a son in law whose stepfather is Muslim, and had such a positive influence in his life that he and my daughter gave their first child an obviously Arabic first name to honor him. I have several moderate Muslim friends and acquaintances and customers who I interact with on a regular basis, and every one of them would be welcome in my home at any time (and some have taken me up on that invitation). I don't have to prove to anyone on this forum that I am not paranoid or prejudiced when it comes to Muslims though -because my friends and customers know that I am most definitely NOT - and really they are who matter to me.
As I have stated ad nauseum - I am not opposed to Islam - I am opposed to Muslim EXTREMISTS - especially those whose PREJUDICES toward the West and Israel -oops, Jews occupying Palestine - is as blatant as those who support the ideals and goals of the Muslim Brotherhood.
You may not want to discuss the MB on this thread, and frankly I don't blame you. The more I dig into their own words from their own site, the more unsavory they look - and as their influence in "the situation in Egypt" grows, I will continue to question their goals on this thread, and others, and hold them accountable for their part in past, present and future events.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Obama said this yesterday:
"I think that the Muslim Brotherhood is one faction in Egypt," Mr Obamasaid. "They don't have majority support."
Barack Obama on Muslim Brotherhood: 'They don't have majority support' - Telegraph
The Muslim Brotherhood does not have to have majority support in order to seize power - either directly or indirectly. They are already adept at working behind the scenes, since though they have been outlawed in Egypt for decades, they are the largest political organization in that area. They don't run candidates as Muslim Brotherhood representatives - OF COURSE. That would be illegal. They run them as independents. Can't say that I blame them.
Furthermore, to give an example of how a party doesn't have to have the majority of public support to win, let's look at an example of how this math works:
At my stepson's high school, the student population is about 20 percent African American. However, this 20 percent nearly invariably places "their candidate" as the winner in any sort of contest which hinges on a student vote. And how is this done? It's done by running only one African American candidate in a contest with multiple candidates - and then they vote basically in a block.
I'm not complaining about this - it's just that the results are always so predictable when this happens, that I wonder why people even complain when it's so OBVIOUSLY democracy at work! When one person gets 20 percent of the vote, and the other 10 people have to split the other 80 percent - well, there's your math at work!
I always get a kick out of it when this happens at school events and people start griping as if it's some sort of conspiracy. It's just a reality of a democratic voting system.
"I think that the Muslim Brotherhood is one faction in Egypt," Mr Obamasaid. "They don't have majority support."
Barack Obama on Muslim Brotherhood: 'They don't have majority support' - Telegraph
The Muslim Brotherhood does not have to have majority support in order to seize power - either directly or indirectly. They are already adept at working behind the scenes, since though they have been outlawed in Egypt for decades, they are the largest political organization in that area. They don't run candidates as Muslim Brotherhood representatives - OF COURSE. That would be illegal. They run them as independents. Can't say that I blame them.
Furthermore, to give an example of how a party doesn't have to have the majority of public support to win, let's look at an example of how this math works:
At my stepson's high school, the student population is about 20 percent African American. However, this 20 percent nearly invariably places "their candidate" as the winner in any sort of contest which hinges on a student vote. And how is this done? It's done by running only one African American candidate in a contest with multiple candidates - and then they vote basically in a block.
I'm not complaining about this - it's just that the results are always so predictable when this happens, that I wonder why people even complain when it's so OBVIOUSLY democracy at work! When one person gets 20 percent of the vote, and the other 10 people have to split the other 80 percent - well, there's your math at work!
I always get a kick out of it when this happens at school events and people start griping as if it's some sort of conspiracy. It's just a reality of a democratic voting system.
Alceste
Vagabond
Don't be a goof. We've discussed them at length. Links were provided, policies quoted. Parliamentary history of democratic activism touched upon. The implications of their understandable chilliness toward Israel discussed. You should start a new thread: "As far as Egypt is concerned, I don't care about anything but the MB and I want to talk about nothing but that, forever. Who's with me?". It looks as though you'll get at least one taker.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
By the way, being the honest person that I am, I am going to point out and correct a mis-statement that I made yesterday. I stated that 40 percent of the world's oil goes through the Suez Canal. I had my factoids mixed up. This is not the case.
What IS the case is that about 40 percent of the world's oil production is from OPEC countries. That's the fact my brain was trying to connect to.
My bad.
I'm frankly surprised that wasn't caught by anyone else on this thread. Doesn't anyone try to verify anything with research?
What IS the case is that about 40 percent of the world's oil production is from OPEC countries. That's the fact my brain was trying to connect to.
My bad.
I'm frankly surprised that wasn't caught by anyone else on this thread. Doesn't anyone try to verify anything with research?
Alceste
Vagabond
By the way, being the honest person that I am, I am going to point out and correct a mis-statement that I made yesterday. I stated that 40 percent of the world's oil goes through the Suez Canal. I had my factoids mixed up. This is not the case.
What IS the case is that about 40 percent of the world's oil production is from OPEC countries. That's the fact my brain was trying to connect to.
My bad.
I'm frankly surprised that wasn't caught by anyone else on this thread. Doesn't anyone try to verify anything with research?
Abibi caught you, but he was subtle about it.
Alceste
Vagabond
Kai,its irrellevant that the MB (oops,soory for mentioning them) are the largest opposition party
El Baradei is not part of the MB, yet he has not only their support but the support of four other opposition groups.