The Trinity

[Muffled]

Here's yer culprit:
Council of Constantinople (360) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But since the term ousia [substance or essence], which was used by the fathers in a very simple and intelligible sense, but not being understood by the people, has been a cause of offense, we have thought proper to reject it, as it is not contained even in the sacred writings; and that no mention of it should be made in future, inasmuch as the holy Scriptures have nowhere mentioned the substance of the Father and of the Son. Nor ought the "subsistence" of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit to be even named.

Not even to be named... yet name they did. Priests...

Just because a bunch of theologians gathered and agreed on something, does not prove the veracity of their statement.

The truth is that the Bible does say that God is spirit and the Paraclete is called the Spirit of Truth. With Jesus the appellation is a bit more subtle. Can spirit be considered a substance? I would deem it so since a substance is simply something that exists.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter (Paraclete), that he may be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of truth

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also the holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Since Jesus says He has a kingdom then He is a king. I will grant you that He is not a worldly king but He is my king and that of millions more beside me from one end of the earth to the other. If ever there becomes a question of whether to obey the dictates of my country or Jesus, I will obey Jesus.

Just thought your ^above^ post bears repeating.
-Acts 5v29

 

[Ben Masada]

The Absolute Unity of God -



Isaiah says that, absolutely, God cannot be compared with anyone or anything, as we read Isaiah 46:5. "To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal to , or compare Me with, that we may be alike?"

Therefore, more than one God would have been unable to produce the world; one would have impeded the work of the other, unless this could be avoided by a suitable division of labour.

More than one Divine Being would have one element in common, and would differ in another; each would thus consist of two elements, and would not be God.

More than one God are moved to action by will; the will, without a substratum, could not act simultaneously in more than one being.

Therefore, the existence of one God is proved; the existence of more than one God cannot be proved. One could suggest that it would be possible; but since as possibility is inapplicable to God, there does not exist more than one God. So, the possibilitly of ascertaining the existence of God is here confounded with potentiality of existence.

Again, if one God suffices, a second or third God would be supperfluous; if one God is not sufficient, he is not perfect, and cannot be a deity.

Now, besides being God absolutely One, He is incorporeal. If God were corporeal, He would consist of atoms, and would not be one; or he would be comparable to other beings; but a comparison implies the existence of similar and of dissimilar elements, and God would thus not be One. A corporeal God would be finite, and an external power would be required to define those limits.

Ben

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Ben Masada-

Would you please express your thoughts about Deuteronomy 4v39.

 

[diosangpastol]

WAS Jesus God? Worshipers of Trinity God would answer yes. But did you know that there is someone Jesus called “God”? Open your own Bible to John 20:17 and read Jesus’ own words near the end of that verse,

“I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.”

 

[URAVIP2ME]

WAS Jesus God? Worshipers of Trinity God would answer yes. But did you know that there is someone Jesus called “God”? Open your own Bible to John 20:17 and read Jesus’ own words near the end of that verse,
“I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.”

Good point ^above^ because Jesus was already resurrected by God when he said the words at John 20v17, but the resurrected Jesus had not yet ascended to heaven.
The resurrected and ascended to heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him at Rev. 3v12, and Jesus still thinks he is the Son of God at Rev 2v18.

 

[jtartar]

1+1+1=1? or 1+1+1=3 or 1+1+1= something else?

Atruthseeker,
Are you really a truth seeker??
If you are, I beg you to reason on a few things. The Bible is the only authority for Christian doctrines. The Bible tells us not to trust in any man, because there is no salvation in any man, Ps 146:3,4, Jere 17:5. We are to put our complete trust in God and His word, The Bible, 1Pet 1:25. God even promises to protect His word from each generation, Ps 12:6,7.
If we believe in any MAN, it should be what Jesus said. God even ordered that we LISTEN to Jesus, Mark 9:7. So, what did Jesus say about him and his Father??
First though we must know exactly what the trinity means. It means that both are Omnipotent, Omniscient, and have existed forever,and cannot die.
At John 14:28, Jesus said that the Father is greater than I am. The term Allpowerful, is mutually exclusive, onle one can be allpowerful. If someone is greater, can they be equal???
At John 6:57, Jesus says that he lives because of the Father.
All life comes from God, The Father, Ps 36:9, Prov 23:22. The Bible tells us that Jesus was God's very FIRST creation, Col 1:15, Rev 3:14. The Bible even tells us how Jesus then became the helper in creating all other things, Prov 8:22-31.
Jesus said that he did not know everything that God knows, Matt 24:36.
Jesus said that not everything was in his control, Matt 20:23.
Three times during the time Jesus was on earth, God the Father spoke to hgim, from heaven, Matt 3:17, Mark 9:7, John 12:28. It is not possible that Jesus was throwing his voice, because the Bible tells us that Jesus was never deceptive, 1Pet 2:22.
Jesus said that God was his Father and his God, just as He is of everyone who believes, John 20:17.
When a person called Jesus the Good teacher, Jesus corrected him and said, Why do you call me good, Nobody is Good, except ONE, God!!Mark 10:18.
The scriptures say that God judges no one, but has committed all judgement to the son, John 5:22. If God and Jesus were the same person that would be alie, and God hates lies, Ps 5:6, Prov 6:16,17.
Several times the Bible says that Jesus is God's SERVANT, Acts 3:13, 4:27,30.
1Tim 6:16, says that God alone has IMMORTALITY, meaning that He cannot die. Jesus died, and was in the grave for parts of three days, Heb 2:9, Matt 12:40.
A couple of scriptures that are really PROOF TEXTS are Dan 7:13,14, Rev 5:7,8, where God is sitting on His throne and Jesus is brought in before Him. It is pretty hard to be in two places at once.
This monstrocity of a Three Headed God is a blasphemy before God and Christ.
In all these scriptures, where is the Holy Spirit??? Actually the Holy Spirit is the means that God accomplishes things, rmember God is Spirit, so He does not need to touch things in order to use them, Ex 8:19, Luke 11:20. Consider Ps 33:6,9, Ps 103:20,21, 104:30.
In ancient days, NAMES were very important, still are to God, Isa 12:2-5, 26:4.
Ps 148:13, 86:8,10, 89:6-8. Remember God's proper name is Jehovah, the ONLY God, as Jesus said at John 17:3. Jesus is Jehovah's son, John 3:16.

 

[PutYHWH1st]

we can find the truth here about the man made doctrine of the trinity at 'tomorrows world' on a google search

 

[Muffled]

we can find the truth here about the man made doctrine of the trinity at 'tomorrows world' on a google search

That is a lot of lengthy preaching stuff that doesn't go to the heart of the matter.

In one place I read that God isn't a trinity. That is correct. However God has expressed, revealed and manifested Himself in a trinity.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That is a lot of lengthy preaching stuff that doesn't go to the heart of the matter.
In one place I read that God isn't a trinity. That is correct. However God has expressed, revealed and manifested Himself in a trinity.

Where?

Jesus nor Jehovah are ever referred to as 'it or 'itself'.

Yet, Jehovah's spirit at [KJV] Romans 8vs16,26 is referred to as 'itself'.

Greek grammar rules allow for a neuter to be referred to as him.
Just like in English we can refer to a ship as a 'she'.

Calling a ship a 'she' does not turn the ship into a person.
Calling God's spirit [according to Greek grammar rules] as he even though it is an 'it' does not turn God's spirit into a person.

 

[kylixguru]

1+1+1=1? or 1+1+1=3 or 1+1+1= something else?

Here is how the summation of the 3 advents of Messiah manifest as One God.

Advent of the Son: Birth to 12 years old + brief ministry in early 30's.
Advent of the Holy Ghost: 13 years old to 39 years old + periods of incarceration in 30's.
Advent of the Father: 40 years old to the end of a normal lifespan for a man. (One like unto Moses.)

Son: Jesus Christ.
Holy Ghost: Adam or Man who comes to reign as King and lay foundation of new Creation.
Father: Adam or Man redeemed from the fall by Son of Man. Union of Son & Holy Ghost per Isaiah 44:6.

All of these significant portions of the advents of the Godhead resolve to a single lifespan as well as an accumulation of the keys and powers of the previous advents entire lifespans. This is the living vine.

These advents are the Stem, Rod and Branch Messiahs of Isaiah 11.
These advents are the First Goat, Ram and the Second Goat of Yom Kippur of Leviticus 16.

When you understand how all of this works, then you can know the end from the beginning.

 

[Vendetta]

1+1+1=1? or 1+1+1=3 or 1+1+1= something else?

Well the trinitarian concept has always perplexed me. Although the trinity underwent its evolution during the Constantinian period, it still becomes a mystery as to how God can be. Jesus being the fleshly embodiment of God, the Holy spirit being the symbolic power and giver of life, both are seen one and the same as the Father.

But it seems the trinity consist of hylomorphic properties........

The father although the son, is also distict.from the son. The son, although the holy spirit is distinct from the holy spirit. The only similitude I can offer is the example of my arm.

Although my arm is attached to my body and is apart of me I am not an arm but rather, my arm is an extension of my body. My arm has its own individual purpose but those purposes are known to me. I am aware of the intentions of my arm because I empower my arm to actualize those intentions whether its carrying a box or slapping a fundamentalist christian arose the face.

With respect to the trinity one can see that the Son and Holy Spirit are hylomorphic extensions of The Father and although one and the same, The Holy Spirit is, not the Son, nor is the Son not the father. If that were the case, there wouldn't be any properties to name The Son distinct from the Holy Spirit and from the Holy spirit distinct from The Father.

 

[Katzpur]

Here is how the summation of the 3 advents of Messiah manifest as One God.

Advent of the Son: Birth to 12 years old + brief ministry in early 30's.
Advent of the Holy Ghost: 13 years old to 39 years old + periods of incarceration in 30's.
Advent of the Father: 40 years old to the end of a normal lifespan for a man. (One like unto Moses.)

Son: Jesus Christ.
Holy Ghost: Adam or Man who comes to reign as King and lay foundation of new Creation.
Father: Adam or Man redeemed from the fall by Son of Man. Union of Son & Holy Ghost per Isaiah 44:6.

All of these significant portions of the advents of the Godhead resolve to a single lifespan as well as an accumulation of the keys and powers of the previous advents entire lifespans. This is the living vine.

These advents are the Stem, Rod and Branch Messiahs of Isaiah 11.
These advents are the First Goat, Ram and the Second Goat of Yom Kippur of Leviticus 16.

When you understand how all of this works, then you can know the end from the beginning.

Huh? Where'd you come up with this?

 

[kylixguru]

Huh? Where'd you come up with this?

I learned it studying the scriptures.

 

[ellenjanuary]

Just because a bunch of theologians gathered and agreed on something, does not prove the veracity of their statement.

The truth is that the Bible does say that God is spirit and the Paraclete is called the Spirit of Truth. With Jesus the appellation is a bit more subtle. Can spirit be considered a substance? I would deem it so since a substance is simply something that exists.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter (Paraclete), that he may be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of truth

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee: wherefore also the holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God.

Shows the basis of the concept's construction. Church adopted trinity, 360; case closed.

But, you want truth? For me, it is geometry; in that physical structure in the actual universe begins with three. Can't tell me about "three dimensions" when I know for a fact there is only one - forward in time. Want a three from scripture? I AM, three letters, there you go. Got the Holy Spirit? Understand Jesus when he says, I and my Father are one? There's three, there you go...

Forgive my rudeness; I really don't do "Bible Study," but I can understand the benefit. And I definitely don't "support trinitarianism." But what I have done, is resolve trinity as a useful concept; it is merely as a man with a measure of pride in my achievement, why I often return to debate trinity...

Tell you what you need, as a "former Old Testament Christian;" Holy Spirit. That's good stuff, right there.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

First-century Christianity ended not in 360. Case closed by year 100.

True, at John 10v30 Jesus says he and his Father are one. One in what way?
Verse 36 doesn't Jesus say he believes he is the Son of God?

At John 14v28 Jesus say his Father is greater then I [Jesus]. How greater?

Who was Jesus 'with' before 'the world was' mentioned at John 17v5?

Since Jesus prayed at John 17 vs 11,21,22,23 that his followers 'be one just as Jesus and his Father are one', was Jesus praying they all be God? Or one in unity, purpose, belief......

The heavenly resurrected Jesus believes he is the beginning of the creation by God.
-Rev 3v14

The heavenly resurrected Jesus still believes he is the Son of God.
-Rev 2v18

The heavenly resurrected Jesus still believes he has a God over him.
-Rev 3v12

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Tell you what you need, as a "former Old Testament Christian;" Holy Spirit. That's good stuff, right there.

Jesus nor Jehovah are ever referred to as 'it' or 'it selves'.

Greek grammar rules do use he for neuter as we might address a ship as she.

Numbers 11 vs16,17 God's spirit is referred to as 'it' not as he; showing the spirit is not the Father but an active force used by God such as he put 'it' upon them.

KJV Romans 8 vs 16,26 also refers to God's spirit in the neuter 'itself'.

 

[ellenjanuary]

First-century Christianity ended not in 360. Case closed by year 100.

True, at John 10v30 Jesus says he and his Father are one. One in what way?
Verse 36 doesn't Jesus say he believes he is the Son of God?

At John 14v28 Jesus say his Father is greater then I [Jesus]. How greater?

Who was Jesus 'with' before 'the world was' mentioned at John 17v5?

Since Jesus prayed at John 17 vs 11,21,22,23 that his followers 'be one just as Jesus and his Father are one', was Jesus praying they all be God? Or one in unity, purpose, belief......

The heavenly resurrected Jesus believes he is the beginning of the creation by God.
-Rev 3v14

The heavenly resurrected Jesus still believes he is the Son of God.
-Rev 2v18

The heavenly resurrected Jesus still believes he has a God over him.
-Rev 3v12

Not the end of first century Christianity, the Council of Constantinople; formal resolution by Church to accept trinity, 360...

This other stuff, a test? It's scale. What I call, the law of the fractal. Bible fulla scale... you do realize, back in the day, this kinda wisdom was witchcraft?

And... I don't do Revelation, you know that.

And I meant to say, one doesn't need trinity; it's a helper towards understanding, then say - what you need is Spirit. But you know that... I wasn't talking to you...

 

[Summer44]

I am new to this but I admit I am unable to accept the Trinity. I have always thought that God was one being, Jesus his Son and the Holy Spirit was God's power used or given to whomever he wished. I too, as a previous post stated never been able to find any reference to the Trinity in the Bible but many quotes to 'only One God'.
Another point that puzzles me is if the Trinity was correct, then does that mean Jesus is God and vice versa? And if that's so how did Jesus die?? I thought the whole meaning behind Jesus dying was the fact that he was human, like us, but did no sin, that's how he could die for all of us. As far as I'm concerned God is immortal so cannot die...the only explanation I can come to is that they are 2 separate beings.

 

[kylixguru]

I too, as a previous post stated never been able to find any reference to the Trinity in the Bible...

Matthew 28:19 says:
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

Another point that puzzles me is if the Trinity was correct, then does that mean Jesus is God and vice versa?

Jesus became a manifestation of God in the flesh because the Spirit of God dwelt in Him fully. Their spiritual union was complete.

And if that's so how did Jesus die?? I thought the whole meaning behind Jesus dying was the fact that he was human, like us, but did no sin, that's how he could die for all of us.

The reason Jesus was put to death was in order to free Israel from the penalty of the law. When a husband takes a wife, she is not freed from the law of her husband until he is dead. Thus, God had to die in order to release his bride Israel from the law. Otherwise, God could not lawfully receive Israel as His bride again in a new covenant.

As far as I'm concerned God is immortal so cannot die...the only explanation I can come to is that they are 2 separate beings.

You don't understand the law and how God also has to abide by the law just as anyone else does. If you take the Holy Ghost as a member of the Godhead then you have to believe that God can die. "Ghost" implies a disembodied spirit, which implies death. Even though God dies, He also has power over death and He can resurrect. The means by which this takes place necessitates the validity of the concept of a trinity. I could go into this in detail but I'll wait to see if this is appropriate.

Read Isaiah 44:6 where this is touched on. God has to die both physically and spiritually in order to receive His bride Israel physically and spiritually. Jesus took care of the physical death part, but the Holy Ghost comes to take care of the spiritual death part. We all know this figure as Adam. He is given dominion over all creation but he transgresses and dies physically and spiritually. Adam, the King, who has dominion over all Israel, has to be redeemed from death and hell. Who redeems Him? The Son, Jesus Christ, who is the savior of all "man"-kind.

Thus, the Almighty God, the One God, etc. is actually the manifestation of the Savior and the Holy Ghost in a redeemed state where They have entered into spiritual union and are manifesting as the Father at the head of the brand new cycle of creation. Thus, Adam is the Begining and the Ending, the Alpha and the Omega. And, our Savior Jesus Christ returns in union with Adam to sit upon Adam's throne and act in the dominion that Adam was given but fell from. The Son becomes the Father. Thus, when Jesus returns He returns as the Almighty God.