The Trinity

[outhouse]

A good many highly significant historical figures were not written about while they were alive.

Besides that, who are you to say that God has to come down on your terms? ie. some kind of hyperbolic Lady Gaga entrance onto the world stage?

A great deal of the significance of Jesus is his insignificance.

your only affirming his creation into a deity of mans chosing, not his own.


Also most of those historical figures were not claiming to the son of god. ONE thing they have in common, many were written about in a mythical nature. We see a clear pattern of deeper mythical nature surrounding religions

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

your only affirming his creation into a deity of mans chosing, not his own.

It seems to me you would prefer that God manifest according to your choosing, and not His own.

The Son of God manifested as the least of men; the king, a servant; the Lord of history, a mere pin prick within it (yet, how he has split it even in half!)... Christ crucified, a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ, the power and wisdom of God.

We can not help that God is not as you like or expect. That he confounded and frustrated expectations lies at the beginning of Christianity.

 

[outhouse]

seems to me you would prefer that God manifest according to your choosing, and not His own

I would like god to manifest to something besides imagination

We can not help that God is not as you like or expect.

god is exactly as I like and exactly as I expect.





Lets give it to you that jesus is divine.

How do you know exactly how divine jesus is. ????????? There is nothing to indicate mans definition is even close to reality, reason or logic.

To say he is as well defined as it is said, IS creating a deity . Plain and simple creation of a god, nothing less.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Well, if he is divine enough to be called Lord, Alpha and Omega, the Way, the Truth and the Life, present in the beginning, the light of men, the vine, Saviour, Redeemer, the Living Water that wells up to eternal life, the Bridegroom of Israel and the one to whom "every knee will bend and every tongue confess"...

Pretty much about as divine as gets.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Well, if he is divine enough to be called Lord, Alpha and Omega, the Way, the Truth and the Life, present in the beginning, the light of men, the vine, Saviour, Redeemer, the Living Water that wells up to eternal life, the Bridegroom of Israel and the one to whom "every knee will bend and every tongue confess"...
Pretty much about as divine as gets.

Aren't angels divine being from the heavenly realm?

Just being 'divine' does Not make one the Creator. [singular]
Who was present before the beginning?
According to Psalm [90v2] wasn't it God?
Only God [Creator] was present before the beginning.
Whereas Jesus was in the beginning but Not before the beginning as God was.

KJV Jesus is the 'Lord' at Psalm [110v1], but 'LORD' [YHWH] of Psalm [110v1] is referring to God. 'LORD' in all upper case letters is never used in connection to Jesus just to God.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Jesus was present before the beginning because, as John records, it was through Jesus that all things were made.

Also, there is no upper/ lower case distinction in any versions of the Greek New Testament (this may be true of the Septuagint as well, I'd have to find out) Christians simply called Jesus "Lord" or "Kyrios" which is the same word that the Greek Jewish population gave to God in their translation of the Septuagint.

 

[outhouse]

Well, if he is divine enough to be called Lord, Alpha and Omega, the Way, the Truth and the Life, present in the beginning, the light of men, the vine, Saviour, Redeemer, the Living Water that wells up to eternal life, the Bridegroom of Israel and the one to whom "every knee will bend and every tongue confess"...

Pretty much about as divine as gets.

but all those are human contructs

many were used by other known man made deitys

 

[outhouse]

I trump your John script with some OT script

32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

"No god with me"

 

[outhouse]

1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


how many sons did god have?????????????????????????????????????????

 

[outhouse]

One thing ive found is using script, you will always paint yourself in a corner

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Jesus was present before the beginning because, as John records, it was through Jesus that all things were made.
Also, there is no upper/ lower case distinction in any versions of the Greek New Testament (this may be true of the Septuagint as well, I'd have to find out) Christians simply called Jesus "Lord" or "Kyrios" which is the same word that the Greek Jewish population gave to God in their translation of the Septuagint.

John[1v1] records 'in the beginning' not before the beginning. [Rev. 3v14 B]

Col. [1vs15,16] yes, says all things through Jesus.
All things through Jesus as God's heavenly firstborn Son.
I think God always existed and was not born,
but that Jesus is firstborn in the heavens before all other creation.
Isn't an 'image' a reflection and not the person himself?

I think both God and Jesus are called Lord.
But the tetragrammaton [YHWH] is never applied to Jesus just to God.

Who are the two [2] Lords of Psalm 110v1?
What are the two [2] names in answer to the last question of Proverbs 30v4 ?

 

[sojourner]

John[1v1] records 'in the beginning' not before the beginning. [Rev. 3v14 B]

Col. [1vs15,16] yes, says all things through Jesus.
All things through Jesus as God's heavenly firstborn Son.
I think God always existed and was not born,
but that Jesus is firstborn in the heavens before all other creation.
Isn't an 'image' a reflection and not the person himself?

I think both God and Jesus are called Lord.
But the tetragrammaton [YHWH] is never applied to Jesus just to God.

Who are the two [2] Lords of Psalm 110v1?
What are the two [2] names in answer to the last question of Proverbs 30v4 ?

If Jesus is in the heavens before all other creation, wouldn't that place him, technically, before "the beginning?"

Of course the Tetragrammaton doesn't apply to Jesus. The NT doesn't use it, because it's written in Greek, and Jesus is not mentioned in the OT. It's always a mistake to try to read Jesus into OT writings. He's just not there. So your references to the Psalms and Proverbs don't really help your argument.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

John[1v1] records 'in the beginning' not before the beginning. [Rev. 3v14 B]

Here:

...and now Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory which I had with you before the world was made.

John 17:5

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If Jesus is in the heavens before all other creation, wouldn't that place him, technically, before "the beginning?"
Of course the Tetragrammaton doesn't apply to Jesus. The NT doesn't use it, because it's written in Greek, and Jesus is not mentioned in the OT. It's always a mistake to try to read Jesus into OT writings. He's just not there. So your references to the Psalms and Proverbs don't really help your argument.

Are you sure the Greek NT writers didn't use the tetragrammaton?

Technically before [before other things] but isn't there technically a difference between 'before' and 'at' the beginning? So 'in' the beginning or 'at' the beginning [before all other things] still does not make a first creation existing before the uncreated Creator, does it?
-Rev 3v14 B

How do you know the un-named Jesus is Not in Psalms or Proverbs?
What about Psalm [118v22] compared with 1st Peter [2v6]; Luke [20v17]
Doesn't Psalm [41v9] match with John [13v18]
and that there would be a replacement for Judas [Psalm 109v8; Acts 1v20]
Doesn't Psalm [69v21] match with Matthew [27v34]
What about Psalm [8v5] compared with Hebrews [2v7]

Isn't the one speaking at Proverbs [8vs22-31] saying he was set up from everlasting from the beginning? [God was not set up nor had a beginning]
The wisdom described there was produced or created at the beginning.
Whereas God always existed and neither created or produced nor brought forth, but the one speaking at verse 22 speaks and acts as a person would. Verse 30 says 'he' was by 'him'.... [Col 1v17; Rev 3v14]
1st Cor [1vs24,30] says Christ is the wisdom of God.....

What about Isaiah's prophecies that tie in with Jesus?

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

If Christ is the wisdom of God, can God's wisdom somehow come after God? Wouldn't God always have the wisdom He has always possessed? And, above, Jesus says he shared glory with the Father before the world was made.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Here:
John 17:5

John 17v5 does talk of Jesus pre-human existence in the heavens.

Father glorify me [Jesus] with your own self with the glory which I [Jesus] had
'WITH' you [God] before the world was. [restore my place that I had with you]

Jesus was 'with' God in the beginning according to Rev 3v14 B.
God had No beginning according to Scripture.
So, Jesus was 'with' God at the beginning or start of all creation in the sense that Jesus was God's 'firstborn' [beginning] in the heavens having a hand, so to speak, in all other creation both in heaven and on earth.
-Col 1vs15-17; Eph 3v9.

One person said to me kind of like a family business:
The father chooses to go into the business of creation.
The father expands the family business and hangs out a shingle: Father&Son.
Through his son, or by using his son as a master worker the father creates.
That Son's delights were with the sons of men. [us]
-Proverbs 8 vs22,23,31

 

[kepha31]

the difference is jesus has some historicity

Moses has zero historicity. Most scholars say he never existed

Moses has zero historicity.

Now you are just following the anti-semetic tradition of your forefathers that has been exposed after WWII. See post # 553 (pg 56)

Most scholars say he never existed.

Here we go again.
No serious historian would buy into that atheist rhetoric.

"Most scholars", yea... like E. P. Sanders (whom I respect) you quoted out of context (who clearly demonstrates his affinity for the Jews), or like Raymond Brown, the laughing stock of his peers? You use the term "most scholars" to bolster your phony arguments. When that backfires you just repeat the same silly remarks. When your quotes get exposed as fraudulent you try to slide out of it with lame statements like "how many sons did god have?" Which proves you did not read your own quote. (for those of you on the same bandwidth, the answer is "as many as received Him)

Outhouse, the root of your problem has nothing to do with religion.

 

[sojourner]

Are you sure the Greek NT writers didn't use the tetragrammaton?

The Tetragrammaton consists of four Hebrew letters. Since the NT is written in Greek, it only stands to reason that it ain't there.

but isn't there technically a difference between 'before' and 'at' the beginning?

Well, yes, but not according to John. He says that Jesus was with the Father in the beginning. This indicates to me that John's use of "in the beginning" means that Jesus was with God before creation was created, since it was with the word that God created light in Genesis.

How do you know the un-named Jesus is Not in Psalms or Proverbs?

Well, since Jesus hadn't been born yet, and since Judaism didn't believe he fulfilled any of the prophecies, and since the writers didn't know of Jesus, that, too, pretty much stands to reason that he ain't in there.

What about Psalm [118v22] compared with 1st Peter [2v6]; Luke [20v17]
Doesn't Psalm [41v9] match with John [13v18]
and that there would be a replacement for Judas [Psalm 109v8; Acts 1v20]
Doesn't Psalm [69v21] match with Matthew [27v34]
What about Psalm [8v5] compared with Hebrews [2v7]

Well, of course the NT writers quoted the OT and drew parallels; the NT writers had knowledge of the OT. But that door doesn't swing both ways. Just because the NT writers quoted the OT doesn't mean that the OT writers were writing about Jesus.

What about Isaiah's prophecies that tie in with Jesus?

Hindsight's 20/20...

 

[outhouse]

Now you are just following the anti-semetic tradition of your forefathers that has been exposed after WWII. See post # 553 (pg 56)

false, not worth responding to beyond that.

"Most scholars",

Moses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The tradition of Moses as a lawgiver and culture hero of the Israelites can be traced to 8th or 7th century BCE in the kingdom of Judah.


This means they made him up in the 7th or 8th century


the figure of Moses as a leader of the Israelites in these events cannot be substantiated

Biblical minimalists such as Philip Davies and Niels Peter Lemche regard the Exodus as a fiction composed in the Persian period or even later, without even the memory of a historical Moses.


Martin Noth holds that two different groups experienced the Exodus and Sinai events, and each group transmitted its own stories independently of the other one, writing that "The biblical story tracing the Hebrews from Egypt to Canaan resulted from an editor's weaving separate themes and traditions around a main character Moses, actually an obscure person from Moab


The Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The archaeological evidence of the largely indigenous origins of Israel is "overwhelming," and leaves "no room for an Exodus from Egypt or a 40-year pilgrimage through the Sinai wilderness."[21] For this reason, most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus#cite_note-21

Outhouse, the root of your problem has nothing to do with religion.

Yes, instead I turned to education, science, history, logic and reason.

 

[kepha31]

Moses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The tradition of Moses as a lawgiver and culture hero of the Israelites can be traced to 8th or 7th century BCE in the kingdom of Judah.

This means they made him up in the 7th or 8th century

the figure of Moses as a leader of the Israelites in these events cannot be substantiated

Biblical minimalists such as Philip Davies and Niels Peter Lemche regard the Exodus as a fiction composed in the Persian period or even later, without even the memory of a historical Moses.

Martin Noth holds that two different groups experienced the Exodus and Sinai events, and each group transmitted its own stories independently of the other one, writing that "The biblical story tracing the Hebrews from Egypt to Canaan resulted from an editor's weaving separate themes and traditions around a main character Moses, actually an obscure person from Moab

The Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The archaeological evidence of the largely indigenous origins of Israel is "overwhelming," and leaves "no room for an Exodus from Egypt or a 40-year pilgrimage through the Sinai wilderness."[21] For this reason, most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit."

According to the Copenhagen School, by historicising the biblical text, the traditional approach to Biblical scholarship created a false ancient Israel which fails to fit into the archaeologically established context of Iron Age Syria and Palestine. The Biblical history as seen by Minimalism is in fact more comparable to Shakespeare's Julius Caesar: the play is based in real history, but was not written for the purpose of retelling that history. In recognising that the historical narrative of the Bible is literature rather than as history, with a plot, a set of characters, and a theological theme concerning the nature of the covenant between the people of Israel and their God, Minimalism treats "biblical Israel" as in fact a literary construction rather than an objective reality.
Biblical Minimalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Your alley of scholars is full of clowns.

Yes, instead I turned to education, science, history, logic and reason

Well, you are indebted to the Catholic Church for preserving the university system from whence your "education, science, history, logic and reason" originated. Here, have a drink:
How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization :beach: