The Trinity

[URAVIP2ME]

God [Psalm 90v2] is from everlasting to everlasting.
Meaning only God was before the beginning of anything.
Jesus, on the other hand, is Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning because according to Rev [3v14 B] Jesus believes he is the beginning of the creation by God. God is uncreated and unbegotten.
God is not firstborn. Jesus was firstborn of all others in heaven and earth.
-Col 1vs15

ok, did god know jesus would sacrifice himself before the beginning of creation?[/quote]

According to Proverbs 8vs22-31 Jesus is personified by wisdom.
The one speaking in verse 22 is said to be created.

Since Jesus was firstborn in the heavens [Col 1v15;Psalm 89v27] he would have been with his Father [Creator] long before the start of the universe and before the earth or the material/physical realm of existence.

If you know someone for a long time you know if you can have trust or confidence in a person. Such as: I recall someone asking about another showing up on time. The answer about that person was that one could set their watch by that person meaning confidence in showing up on time.

So, by Jesus being God's daily delight rejoicing before him [Prov 8v30]
Then God could have the trust and confidence in Jesus doing what he asked.
Didn't Jesus always do his Father's will over his own will?
[Matt 26v39; Luke 22v42; John 4v34; 5v30; 6v38]

So, by that trust or confidence in Jesus then it seems logical God would know by the time of Eden Jesus would be willing to be the 'seed' of Gen 3v15.

 

[sojourner]

LOL

good one, quick on your feet you are today

Can't recall his name off the top of my head, though...

 

[InChrist]

According to Proverbs 8vs22-31 Jesus is personified by wisdom.
The one speaking in verse 22 is said to be created.

Since Jesus was firstborn in the heavens [Col 1v15;Psalm 89v27] he would have been with his Father [Creator] long before the start of the universe and before the earth or the material/physical realm of existence.

[FONT=&quot]God's wisdom is the subject of Proverbs 8, not Jesus Christ. The word firstborn in Col.1 and Psalm 89 are a reference to the supreme position of Christ (which I have previously posted about) and do not indicate that He was born or created.

Proverbs chapters 1-7 and 9 are speaking about God’s wisdom personified and how important it is to get, acquire, or possess wisdom, I believe chapter 8 is also speaking of this same wisdom, not the person of Jesus Christ. I do not see any indication that chapter 8 should be taken to have a different meaning than chapters 1-7 and 9. That would be to take verse 22 and/or Chapter 8 out of context.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
This wisdom of Chapters 1-9 is also personified as feminine:

[/FONT] Does not wisdom cry out,
And understanding lift up her voice?
She takes her stand on the top of the high hill,
Beside the way, where the paths meet.
She cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city,
At the entrance of the doors:
“ To you, O men, I call,
And my voice is to the sons of men.

And this wisdom dwells with prudence:

I, wisdom, dwell with prudence (verse 12)

Verse 22 says,
The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, before His works of old.

According Proverbs 8:22 the LORD possessed wisdom.

It does not say anyone was created and it does not refer to Jesus Christ.

 

[waitasec]

According to Proverbs 8vs22-31 Jesus is personified by wisdom.
The one speaking in verse 22 is said to be created.

Since Jesus was firstborn in the heavens [Col 1v15;Psalm 89v27] he would have been with his Father [Creator] long before the start of the universe and before the earth or the material/physical realm of existence.

If you know someone for a long time you know if you can have trust or confidence in a person. Such as: I recall someone asking about another showing up on time. The answer about that person was that one could set their watch by that person meaning confidence in showing up on time.

So, by Jesus being God's daily delight rejoicing before him [Prov 8v30]
Then God could have the trust and confidence in Jesus doing what he asked.
Didn't Jesus always do his Father's will over his own will?
[Matt 26v39; Luke 22v42; John 4v34; 5v30; 6v38]

So, by that trust or confidence in Jesus then it seems logical God would know by the time of Eden Jesus would be willing to be the 'seed' of Gen 3v15.

ok, did god know jesus would sacrifice himself before the beginning of creation?

i'm not asking about jesus willingness...i am asking did the trinity know jesus would sacrifice himself from before the beginning?

 

[idav]

ok, did god know jesus would sacrifice himself before the beginning of creation?

i'm not asking about jesus willingness...i am asking did the trinity know jesus would sacrifice himself from before the beginning?

I can't really see it. God would have had to know that humans would fail over and over eventually resorting to sacrifice his son. You'd figure someone who knows the future wouldn't resort to such a tactic especially after destroying the earth with a flood failed so miserably.

 

[waitasec]

I can't really see it. God would have had to know that humans would fail over and over eventually resorting to sacrifice his son. You'd figure someone who knows the future wouldn't resort to such a tactic especially after destroying the earth with a flood failed so miserably.

:yes:
you'd also think that someone who knows the future would the failure of flooding the earth

it just doesn't add up does it...

seems every generation is sinful... so why does jesus say:
mark 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation...

so what's so 'very good' about that?

 

[American Patriot]

Jesus as man hungered, thirsted, wept, slept, cried, feared, suffered and died.

1 Peter 3:18
(18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.

And as a man Jesus said, "I can do nothing of myself," My Father is greater than I", and "My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?"

Jesus as God, raised the dead, healed the sick, opened the blind eyes, and raised HIMSELF up from the dead.

John 2:19
(19) Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days *** I will raise it up ***.

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

Acts 13:30
(30) But God raised him from the dead:

God AND Jesus raised Jesus from the dead. Did it take two??? I think not.
Jesus AS GOD raised Himself from the dead.

As God, Jesus forgave Sins:

Mark 2:5-7
(5) When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
(6) But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
(7) Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

As God He was in heaven while a man on the earth:

John 3:13
(13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, *** even the Son of man which is in heaven ***.

The man was human, but the Spirit in Him was the Father.

John 14:8-10
(8) Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
(9) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
(10) Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: *** but the Father that dwelleth in me ***, he doeth the works.

Romans 8:9-10
(9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the *** Spirit of God dwell in you *** . Now if any man have not *** the Spirit of Christ ***, he is none of his.
(10) *** And if Christ be in you ***, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Paul interchangeable uses the the Spirit of God, The Spirit of Christ and even Just Christ.

Furthermore, Jesus is the Holy Ghost.

John 14:26
(26) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


John 14:16-18
(16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you *** another Comforter ***, that he may abide with you for ever;
(17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
(18) *** I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you ***.


"Another comforter" was another manifestation Of Jesus Christ. Jesus plainly tells them that He is the comforter. v18

And notice Jesus says the comforter will be in us v17

Who is in us?
Colossians 1:27
(27) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is *** Christ in you, the hope of glory ***

Romans 8:10

(10) *** And if Christ be in you ***, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Here is Jesus fulfilling His promise to be in us:

Acts 2:4
(4) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Who is in us?

Romans 8:9
(9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the *** Spirit of God dwell in you ***. Now if any man have not the *** Spirit of Christ, he is none of his ***.

Who?

Matthew 10:20
(20) For it is not ye that speak, but the *** Spirit of your Father *** which speaketh in you.

Now if I believed like you, I would have in me the Spirit of the Father, The Spirit of Christ, and The Holy Ghost -- that's THREE Spirits.

But the Bible teaches there is just one:

1Co_6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is *** one spirit ***.
1Co_12:13 For by *** one Spirit *** are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into *** one Spirit ***.
Eph_2:18 For through him we both have access by *** one Spirit *** unto the Father.
Eph_4:4 There is one body, and *** one Spirit ***, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Who is this one Spirit that is in us?

Ephesians 4:6
(6) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Romans 8:9
(9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

God and Jesus are never referred to as 'it' or 'itself'.

Yet at Numbers 11vs17,25 God's spirit is 'it'.

Psalm 104v30 God's sends forth his spirit as a force in divine creating.

Romans 8vs16,26 referrs to God's spirit as 'itself'

 

[American Patriot]

God and Jesus are never referred to as 'it' or 'itself'.

Yet at Numbers 11vs17,25 God's spirit is 'it'.

Psalm 104v30 God's sends forth his spirit as a force in divine creating.

Romans 8vs16,26 referrs to God's spirit as 'itself'

But the Bible teaches there is just one:

1Co_6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is *** one spirit ***.
1Co_12:13 For by *** one Spirit *** are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into *** one Spirit ***.
Eph_2:18 For through him we both have access by *** one Spirit *** unto the Father.
Eph_4:4 There is one body, and *** one Spirit ***, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Who is this one Spirit that is in us?

Ephesians 4:6
(6) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Romans 8:9
(9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his

 

[Shermana]

The "One Spirit" is still "one spirit".

 

[idav]

The "One Spirit" is still "one spirit".

Could always be a split personality.

 

[outhouse]

Could always be a split personality.

its not the case.


we have a man made definition of something no literate person ever witnessed before he wrote about it.

the amount of divinity grew after a kangaroo court

 

[Shermana]

But the Bible teaches there is just one:

1Co_6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is *** one spirit ***.
1Co_12:13 For by *** one Spirit *** are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into *** one Spirit ***.
Eph_2:18 For through him we both have access by *** one Spirit *** unto the Father.
Eph_4:4 There is one body, and *** one Spirit ***, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Who is this one Spirit that is in us?

Ephesians 4:6
(6) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Romans 8:9
(9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his

This should help define who the Life Givnig Spirit is, the "Last Adam". 1 Co 15:45

English Standard Version (©2001)
Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

 

[Muffled]

Sure no body then father is left. That makes sense. Adversely no body means no Jesus yet Jesus was supposedly had his own spirit since the foundation of the world. How does that work did he have two spirits in him?

There is no evidence that Jesus had two spirits. The Spirit since the foundation of the world is the Father with whom Jesus identifies. So Jesus is not speaking of his temporal existence since the foundation of the world.

 

[Muffled]

Three distinct beings, for God is not the author of confusion, nor is He a multiple personality.

The scriptures do not support your opinion.

This can't be proven from scripture. (And it isn't true)

Mt 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

This is the concept of God in the flesh.

Mr 11:25 And whensoever ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have aught against any one; that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

This is the concept of God as the Father.

Ac 1:5 For John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days hence.

This is the concept of God in the believer,

 

[1948_its_happening]

There is only one God but do you really think that one God who is all powerful can only be at one place at one time and can be restricted by the few dimensions he has made you aware of?

And, if he is not restricted would he not travel in his freedom as one or 6 or infinity if it pleased him?

Do not let your understanding restrict your understanding of God. True, no where in the bible is the Trinity mentioned. It is a concept invented by the Church to attempt to neaten up and make digestable a concept which is beyond human understanding. I agree that pushing the Trinity idea is dangerous because it is but a shallow half baked attempt at simplifying something that should not be restrcted to simplification.

Jesus says: I am in the father and the father is in me. He says that before creation he was with the father. The bible tells us that the holy spirit is the power of God on earth. Jesus and God are not on earth. They are outside of our restricted dimensions. The holy spirit is the manifestation of Gods power in our site.

Now you could go on and on about the philisophical implications of a multi dimensional multi person God but you will simpl confuse yourself. God always uses simple analogies so the average man can grasp the basics of the truth. This is why Jesus and God are likened to a son and a father but by no means does that quantify the scope of the concept.

Also if one is to believe that God is love then one has to believe in a multiperson God for how can one alone love when the very definition of love is a relationship between 2 or more.

 

[Muffled]

here's a funny clip

who says we JW's dont have a sense of humor?
[youtube]wOieHqt213U[/youtube]
YouTube - ‪JW ARCHIVES super trinitarian Vs The Jehovahs witness‬‏

I agree. It is quite funny to see the self congratulatory rhetoric.

The fact is that I know the Bible very well and the Trinity is there. Jesus has equated Himself with God and the Paraclete. The non-trinitarian either has to ignore or misintepret those scriptures.

Modalism has some truth to it but the water analogy doesn't hold water because the Spirit does not have different states. The status of the Holy Spirit does not change in each member of the Trinity. Sabellius likened God to an actor on a stage who plays three characters. This is not totally correct. The character of the Holy Spirit remains the same in each member of the Trinity. However the physical bodies could be considered individual. The problem then becomes that the Paraclete is millions (theorectically) of physical bodies. For that reason I believe the Trinity to be more conceptual than an actual physical count.

 

[Shermana]

I agree. It is quite funny to see the self congratulatory rhetoric.

The fact is that I know the Bible very well and the Trinity is there. Jesus has equated Himself with God and the Paraclete. The non-trinitarian either has to ignore or misintepret those scriptures.

Modalism has some truth to it but the water analogy doesn't hold water because the Spirit does not have different states. The status of the Holy Spirit does not change in each member of the Trinity. Sabellius likened God to an actor on a stage who plays three characters. This is not totally correct. The character of the Holy Spirit remains the same in each member of the Trinity. However the physical bodies could be considered individual. The problem then becomes that the Paraclete is millions (theorectically) of physical bodies. For that reason I believe the Trinity to be more conceptual than an actual physical count.

Equating with God = Being God?

Also, if the "Father is Greater than I", that's not really being equal now is it.

 

[Shermana]

This can't be proven from scripture. (And it isn't true)

Mt 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

This is the concept of God in the flesh.

Mr 11:25 And whensoever ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have aught against any one; that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

This is the concept of God as the Father.

Ac 1:5 For John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days hence.

This is the concept of God in the believer,

Only a Trinitarian can see something about God being in the flesh from Matthew 1:18. The presupposition is amusing. Not like 11:25 is specifically separating them as separate beings.

 

[Shermana]

There is no evidence that Jesus had two spirits. The Spirit since the foundation of the world is the Father with whom Jesus identifies. So Jesus is not speaking of his temporal existence since the foundation of the world.

No, the Father HAS a Spirit. Remember how it hovered over the Waters of Earth in the beginning?