The Trinity

[Muffled]

So maybe we both agree that only the revealed word of God is the true word no matter the translation?

I have to chuckle a bit. I wish in my case that things were hidden from me and had to be revealed but the truth is that I had never read it, at least that part where the salvation of Jesus is presented.

So my answer is that the versons don't change the substance but it helps to read the right books and John did it for me. Maybe for someone else it would be Ephesians or Romans.

 

[Muffled]

The Mormons also ask similar questions. e.g. IF you really read the Book of Mormon then you would just know in your heart that the BoM is Gods Word.

So called christians make the same claim about their bible.

So IF you don't believe their book is ' the one true book ' then the reasons are endless e.g. You didn't read them properly. You didn't read them with the right attitude. Your Faith is weak. Your heart wasn't focused on really listening to it? etc. etc.

So each one makes claims that ' their book ' is the only book.

So how did you know that your book was ' the only right book ' and your evidence to support you please? e.g. You heard voices telling you it was? You got a warm and fuzzy feeling when you read it? You won Lotto the next day after reading it or some other good fortune / other reasons?

Do you also denounce the Hadiths etc. and all external Qu'ranic books? (Your reasons and evidence please?)

Are ALL Muslems in agreement with you about that?


No bother, but it would be nice if you reciprocated my questions also e.g.

What group would Mahomet belong to today and why the other groups are not suitable and why they don't agree with each other yet the Qu'ran is claimed to be ' Allah's clear message? '


Some one suggesting a particular translation without good reason means that they consider the other translations inferior.

That in itself speaks badly for an alleged book claimed to be the clear word of a God when obviously it isn't and the messages can not be translated clearly and without division as to which version is better than another?

The various bible versions suffer the same flaw and the supposed christian God IS the author of mass confusion but claims it isn't? (cf. 1 Cor. 14:33) KJV story book.

I have the Holy Spirit who affirms His word in the Bible and the Qu'ran.

It is as the Bible has described, the lame walk the blind see and lives that were lost in sin and degradation were saved into lives of righteousness.

The Bible is 99% clear and in harmony in all of its translations.

 

[Romeo Corbes]

The doctrine of the Trinity is TRUE and I believed it. My facts are based on the verses of the bible itself. In Matthew 28:19 says " Go ye therefore, and teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.". This is being supported in John 14:26 that says " But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you". Furthermore, in the book of Revelation , chapter 3:12 says " Him that overcometh will I make in the pillar in the temple of God, and he shall go no more out; and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God; and I will write upon him my new name".

 

[Muffled]

The doctrine of the Trinity is TRUE and I believed it. My facts are based on the verses of the bible itself. In Matthew 28:19 says " Go ye therefore, and teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.". This is being supported in John 14:26 that says " But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you". Furthermore, in the book of Revelation , chapter 3:12 says " Him that overcometh will I make in the pillar in the temple of God, and he shall go no more out; and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God; and I will write upon him my new name".

Your verses make a decent case for the Trinity but they don't support the doctrine of the Trinity which states that God is in three persons. Along with a trinitarian concept there is also the concept that all three are God. That is where some people take issue and most of the heresies come from. There is a thread on Biblical Debates about the divinity of Jesus.

 

[smokydot]

The Bible contains neither the word nor the idea of a "trinity". Trinities of gods are common in pagan religions, however.

The revelation of the Triune God comes from Jesus, himself.

Jesus said he was God (the Jews were very clear on that point--see my post #96 on Jesus and Claim to Divinity thread).
John said Jesus was God (Jn 1:1-3).

Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit as a divine person, another Comforter, as the person Jesus was a comforter.
Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit with the personal pronoun "he" (Jn 14:16-17,25-26, 15:26, 16:7).

The New Testament presents three divine persons in one God.

 

[A Thousand Suns]

I have a thread on Religious Debates: "Did Jesus say He was God."

All three members of the Trinity are God. That is what they have in common making them a trinity.

God has no equal. To say that Jesus is equal with God is to say that He is God. First of all God does not have a form, so the word is just a filler. The paraphrase that I have says the essence or nature of God which fits better. The idea of "grasped" here is that of holding tight to something without being willing to let it go and fits in with the compamion phrase of "emptied Himself." That is most likely an expression of how much of a condescension it was for God to inhabit a human body. The reality is that God did not have to relinquish His nature to enter the body of Jesus and the scriptures prove this.

First ,even writing a book on trinity dosent makes it right

second the verse you showed from KJV is thrown out of bible in Revised Edition, the top Christian scholars agree its a fabrication

 

[A Thousand Suns]

The revelation of the Triune God comes from Jesus, himself.

Jesus said he was God (the Jews were very clear on that point--see my post #96 on Jesus and Claim to Divinity thread).
John said Jesus was God (Jn 1:1-3).

Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit as a divine person, another Comforter, as the person Jesus was a comforter.
Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit with the personal pronoun "he" (Jn 14:16-17,25-26, 15:26, 16:7).

The New Testament presents three divine persons in one God.

You fail to realise that the prophecy clearly says that only if Jesus (pbuh) departs will the Comforter come.....see the full context.........The Bible states that the Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of Jesus (pbuh), in the womb of Elizabeth, and again when Jesus (pbuh) was being baptised, etc

second Jesus never said he was God , its clearly mentioned he was Prophet of God

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know."

[The Bible, Acts 2:22]

"… and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me."
[The Bible, John 14:24]

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent."
[The Bible, John 17:3]


"Shama Israelu Adonai Ila Hayno Adonai Ikhad."

This is a Hebrew quotation, which means:

"Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord."
[The Bible, Mark 12:29]


"My Father is greater than I."
[The Bible, John 14:28]

"My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]

"…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…."
[The Bible, Mathew 12:28]

"…I with the finger of God cast out devils…."
[The Bible, Luke 11:20]

 

[A Thousand Suns]

To Christian there is no trinity in Bible

the verse related to trinity in KJV is thrown out of bible in Revised Edition, the top Christian scholars agree its a fabrication

 

[smokydot]

To Christian there is no trinity in Bible

Actually, there is.
See post #125 for verses presenting a triune God in the Bible.

the verse related to trinity in KJV is thrown out of bible in Revised Edition, the top Christian scholars agree its a fabrication

 

[tomato1236]

We maintain that the concepts identified by such nonscriptural terms as “the incomprehensible mystery of God” and “the mystery of the Holy Trinity” are attributable to the ideas of Greek philosophy. These philosophical concepts transformed Christianity in the first few centuries following the deaths of the Apostles. For example, philosophers then maintained that physical matter was evil and that God was a spirit without feelings or passions. Persons of this persuasion, including learned men who became influential converts to Christianity, had a hard time accepting the simple teachings of early Christianity: an Only Begotten Son who said he was in the express image of his Father in Heaven and who taught his followers to be one as he and his Father were one, and a Messiah who died on a cross and later appeared to his followers as a resurrected being with flesh and bones.
The collision between the speculative world of Greek philosophy and the simple, literal faith and practice of the earliest Christians produced sharp contentions that threatened to widen political divisions in the fragmenting Roman empire. This led Emperor Constantine to convene the first churchwide council in a.d. 325. The action of this council of Nicaea remains the most important single event after the death of the Apostles in formulating the modern Christian concept of deity. The Nicene Creed erased the idea of the separate being of Father and Son by defining God the Son as being of “one substance with the Father.”
Other councils followed, and from their decisions and the writings of churchmen and philosophers there came a synthesis of Greek philosophy and Christian doctrine in which the orthodox Christians of that day lost the fulness of truth about the nature of God and the Godhead. The consequences persist in the various creeds of Christianity, which declare a Godhead of only one being and which describe that single being or God as “incomprehensible” and “without body, parts, or passions.” One of the distinguishing features of the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is its rejection of all of these postbiblical creeds.

--Dallin H Oaks

 

[smokydot]

You fail to realise that the prophecy clearly says that only if Jesus (pbuh) departs will the Comforter come.....see the full context.........The Bible states that the Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of Jesus (pbuh), in the womb of Elizabeth, and again when Jesus (pbuh) was being baptised, etc

The issue at this point is only that Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit with a personal pronoun, "he", indicating the Holy Spirit is a person, another person in addition to Jesus and the Father.

second Jesus never said he was God , its clearly mentioned he was Prophet of God

See another thread in Scriptural Debates, titled Prophet Jesus Never Claimed Divinity, post #98, for a thorough refutation of that statement by giving Jesus' many claims to being God.

Jesus was also a prophet (like Moses), priest (like Melchidezek) and king (like David), none of which oppose his being God.

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know."

[The Bible, Acts 2:22]

"… and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me."
[The Bible, John 14:24]

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent."
[The Bible, John 17:3]


"Shama Israelu Adonai Ila Hayno Adonai Ikhad."

This is a Hebrew quotation, which means:

"Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord."
[The Bible, Mark 12:29]


"My Father is greater than I."
[The Bible, John 14:28]

"My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]

"…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…."
[The Bible, Mathew 12:28]

"…I with the finger of God cast out devils…."
[The Bible, Luke 11:20]

 

[smokydot]

We maintain that the concepts identified by such nonscriptural terms as “the incomprehensible mystery of God” and “the mystery of the Holy Trinity” are attributable to the ideas of Greek philosophy. These philosophical concepts transformed Christianity in the first few centuries following the deaths of the Apostles. For example, philosophers then maintained that physical matter was evil and that God was a spirit without feelings or passions. Persons of this persuasion, including learned men who became influential converts to Christianity, had a hard time accepting the simple teachings of early Christianity: an Only Begotten Son who said he was in the express image of his Father in Heaven and who taught his followers to be one as he and his Father were one, and a Messiah who died on a cross and later appeared to his followers as a resurrected being with flesh and bones.
The collision between the speculative world of Greek philosophy and the simple, literal faith and practice of the earliest Christians produced sharp contentions that threatened to widen political divisions in the fragmenting Roman empire. This led Emperor Constantine to convene the first churchwide council in a.d. 325. The action of this council of Nicaea remains the most important single event after the death of the Apostles in formulating the modern Christian concept of deity. The Nicene Creed erased the idea of the separate being of Father and Son by defining God the Son as being of “one substance with the Father.”
Other councils followed, and from their decisions and the writings of churchmen and philosophers there came a synthesis of Greek philosophy and Christian doctrine in which the orthodox Christians of that day lost the fulness of truth about the nature of God and the Godhead. The consequences persist in the various creeds of Christianity, which declare a Godhead of only one being and which describe that single being or God as “incomprehensible” and “without body, parts, or passions.” One of the distinguishing features of the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is its rejection of all of these postbiblical creeds.

--Dallin H Oaks

I don't disagree with you about the creeds.

But don't you think "the incomprehensible mystery of God" is appropriate?
I can't wrap my mind around "no beginning."

And wouldn't three (see post #125 for Jesus referring to the Holy Spirit as a person) separate beings necessarily mean three Gods?
To be one God, must they not all be one and the same being?

 

[tomato1236]

I don't disagree with you about the creeds.

But don't you think "the incomprehensible mystery of God" is appropriate?
I can't wrap my mind around "no beginning."

And wouldn't three (see post #125 for Jesus referring to the Holy Spirit as a person) separate beings necessarily mean three Gods?
To be one God, must they not all be one and the same being?

Nah. I mean yes. Heh. There are three gods, and one God. They're different folks. It's much less unimagineable that "god" is a title that they all three hold and that together they are what we worship, or "God", being one in purpose, but not in body, than it is to imagine that Jesus was talking to himself in the garden or on the cross--that he is three people in one, but not one, three, but not three, one.

 

[tomato1236]

P.S. About "no beginning" yeah, that's pretty hard to grasp. Incomprehensible may be a little strong, though. At present, yeah, we don't comprehend. But I think God can be comprehended.

 

[smokydot]

Nah. I mean yes. Heh. There are three gods, and one God. They're different folks. It's much less unimagineable that "god" is a title that they all three hold and that together they are what we worship, or "God", being one in purpose, but not in body, than it is to imagine that Jesus was talking to himself in the garden or on the cross--that he is three people in one, but not one, three, but not three, one.

I think that's called word salad.
The Bible is emphatically clear that there is one and only one God, no if's, and's, or but's. (The Bible doesn't present it as a "title," but as a being.)
The NT presents three separate divine persons (see post #125).

Correct understanding of the Godhead must incorporate both, without contradiction of either.

The NT reveals that the person of the Father is not the person of the Son, nor the person of the Holy Spirit.
The person of the Son is not the person of the Holy Spirit.
Therefore, Jesus was not talking to "himself" in the garden or on the cross. He was talking to another divine person.

You've just made painfully obvious the need for those creeds.

 

[tomato1236]

I think that's called word salad.

The Bible is emphatically clear that there is one and only one God, no if's, and's, or but's. (The Bible doesn't present it as a "title," but as a being.)

Ok. Right.

The NT presents three separate divine persons (see post #125).

Right. 3. Separate.

The NT reveals that the person of the Father is not the person of the Son, nor the person of the Holy Spirit.

Right. 3. Separate.

The person of the Son is not the person of the Holy Spirit.

Right. 3. Separate.

Therefore, Jesus was not talking to "himself" in the garden or on the cross. He was talking to another divine person.

Right. 3. Separate.

You've just made painfully obvious the need for those creeds.

And you've just repeated what I was saying...I think. Did you explain how 3 beings are one God outside the trinity, or did I miss that?

 

[smokydot]

And you've just repeated what I was saying...I think.

Well, yes. . .

Did you explain how 3 beings are one God outside the trinity, or did I miss that?

. . .and no.

There are not three beings (emphasis is mine in your quote). . .there is only one being.
Three beings are three Gods, which the Bible emphatically denies.
There is only one being who is God.

The Bible presents the Son as the word of God, in person,
and it presents the Spirit of God as the breath of God, in person.
God's word and God's breath are not beings. . .according to Jesus, they are persons, as the Father is a person.

The Bible presents three persons. . .in one being.

 

[tomato1236]

Well, yes. . .



. . .and no.

There are not three beings (emphasis is mine in your quote). . .there is only one being.
Three beings are three Gods, which the Bible emphatically denies.
There is only one being who is God.

The Bible presents the Son as the word of God, in person,
and it presents the Spirit of God as the breath of God, in person.
God's word and God's breath are not beings. . .according to Jesus, they are persons, as the Father is a person.

The Bible presents three persons. . .in one being.

Haha what's the difference between a person and a being? I mean, animals are beings and not people, but I don't think that's what you mean...

 

[smokydot]

Haha what's the difference between a person and a being? I mean, animals are beings and not people, but I don't think that's what you mean...

Well. . .a "being" is that which exists as an actuality or entity.
Persons are beings, animals are beings, plants are beings, rocks are beings. . .and God is a being.

When the Bible declares that there is one, and only one, God, it is declaring that there is one, and only one, being who is God.

To posit more than one being to be God runs counter to the Bible's understanding of God, which understanding cannot be altered if it is to remain Biblical.

In the NT, Jesus reveals that the Holy Spirit is a person, as Jesus is a person and as the Father is a person, thereby revealing three divine persons in the one being, God.

And therein is the incomprehensibility--in the world of matter, separate persons are separate beings, but in the Godhead, separate divine persons are not separate divine beings.
The Bible's understanding of God as "one, and only one," is not altered by Jesus' revelation of three divine persons.

 

[tomato1236]

Well. . .a "being" is that which exists as an actuality or entity.
Persons are beings, animals are beings, plants are beings, rocks are beings. . .and God is a being.

When the Bible declares that there is one, and only one, God, it is declaring that there is one, and only one, being who is God.

To posit more than one being to be God runs counter to the Bible's understanding of God, which understanding cannot be altered if it is to remain Biblical.

In the NT, Jesus reveals that the Holy Spirit is a person, as Jesus is a person and as the Father is a person, thereby revealing three divine persons in the one being, God.

And therein is the incomprehensibility--in the world of matter, separate persons are separate beings, but in the Godhead, separate divine persons are not separate divine beings.
The Bible's understanding of God as "one, and only one," is not altered by Jesus' revelation of three divine persons.

I'm pretty sure you didn't explain the difference between a person and a being. You just explained what a being is.