The Trinity

[tomato1236]

Well. . .a "being" is that which exists as an actuality or entity.
Persons are beings, animals are beings, plants are beings, rocks are beings. . .and God is a being.

When the Bible declares that there is one, and only one, God, it is declaring that there is one, and only one, being who is God.

To posit more than one being to be God runs counter to the Bible's understanding of God, which understanding cannot be altered if it is to remain Biblical.

In the NT, Jesus reveals that the Holy Spirit is a person, as Jesus is a person and as the Father is a person, thereby revealing three divine persons in the one being, God.

And therein is the incomprehensibility--in the world of matter, separate persons are separate beings, but in the Godhead, separate divine persons are not separate divine beings.
The Bible's understanding of God as "one, and only one," is not altered by Jesus' revelation of three divine persons.

Ok. Well if that's the bible's doctrine of the Godhead, then the bible is wrong.

 

[A Thousand Suns]

The issue at this point is only that Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit with a personal pronoun, "he", indicating the Holy Spirit is a person, another person in addition to Jesus and the Father.



See another thread in Scriptural Debates, titled Prophet Jesus Never Claimed Divinity, post #98, for a thorough refutation of that statement by giving Jesus' many claims to being God.

Jesus was also a prophet (like Moses), priest (like Melchidezek) and king (like David), none of which oppose his being God.

Adam is son of God ,Moses is Son of God ,Jesus is Son of God etc according to the bible ,Actually anyone who follows god is the son of god

in that way Jesus(pbuh) was the son of god and i agree with that

secondly the post you are showing , most of verses are out of context and the other don't even mean anything

p.s you didn't replied to the verses i Quoted

 

[jtartar]

There was no subject so hotly debated in the early church than the relationship between God , Jesus, and the Holy spirit. Every side in the debate went through the stage of declaring the others Heretics. All were certain there was only one God.

The Trinity concept was numerically the winner.
However virtually all the other concepts still survive to this day in one form or another.

Most people I have met, Trinitarians or not, are quite unable to explain the Trinity in simple terms.

Muslims are unwilling to even try.

However This does not mean the concept is false, it simply means like all religious concepts, it is mysterious.

Terrywoodenpic,
What exactly do you mean by;The EARLY Church???
If you are talking about the church of the first century, NO ONE even dreamed of a trinity. Everyone KNEW that there is only one God, as is mentioned in the Bible several times.
There are numerable scriptures that speak about one God, but just consider several scriptures that say exactly that.
Consider Deut 6:4 which says our God is ONE GOD. The original scripture says Jehovah is one God. The Proper name Jehovah was written in the original scriptures over 7,000 times.
Gal 3:20, says that God is only ONE.
At John 17:3, Jesus himself said that there is only ONE true God, separating himself from God, as he was the one sent forth.
At 1Cor 8:4-6, tells us that there are those CALLED gods, but there is only ONE GOD THE FATHER, to Christians, and ONE Lord, Jesus.
At John 8:16-18, where Jesus is making a point about having to have TWO witnesses to prove something true. Then Jesus said that He was ONE Witness, and the Father was ONE Witness. They had to be separate people for this principle to be true.
Another point; at John 5:22, Jesus said that the Father does not judging at all, but has given all the judging to the son. If they were the same person, Jesus would be lying. Jesus never lied, he never even said things that were deceitful, 1Pet 2:21,22.
Jesus also said that what he taught was not his, but belonged to the one who sent him, John 7:16. God sent Jesus, John 3:16,17.
Jesus said that he LIVES because of the Father, John 6:57. That means that there was a time when Jesus did not live, or exist. We are told that a Father cause the birth of a chile, Prov 23:22.
A very interesting several scriptures are found at Prov 8:22-31, which most Bible schlors believe to be talking about Jesus, here personified as wisdom.

 

[smokydot]

Ok. Well if that's the bible's doctrine of the Godhead, then the bible is wrong.

Without going into it too much further, I would be interested in why you conclude the Bible is wrong in post #139 (which includes posts #135, #137).

Thanks.

 

[smokydot]

Adam is son of God ,Moses is Son of God ,Jesus is Son of God etc according to the bible ,Actually anyone who follows god is the son of god

in that way Jesus(pbuh) was the son of god and i agree with that

secondly the post you are showing , most of verses are out of context and the other don't even mean anything

p.s you didn't replied to the verses i Quoted

1) I don't understand how the Scriptures (in post #98, in this Forum on the thread, Prophet Jesus Never Claimed Divinity) are out of context. Would you please illustrate what you mean?

2) Some of the verses you quoted referred to Jesus as a prophet, and as I indicated to you he was, but that is not all he was. In addition to being a a prophet (like Moses), he was also a priest (like Melchizedek) and a king (like David), none of which mean he was not divine.
Other verses you quoted referred to one, and only one, God, and in regard to the divnity of Jesus, those verses are addressed in post #139.

 

[Muffled]

The revelation of the Triune God comes from Jesus, himself.

Jesus said he was God (the Jews were very clear on that point--see my post #96 on Jesus and Claim to Divinity thread).
John said Jesus was God (Jn 1:1-3).

Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit as a divine person, another Comforter, as the person Jesus was a comforter.
Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit with the personal pronoun "he" (Jn 14:16-17,25-26, 15:26, 16:7).

The New Testament presents three divine persons in one God.

You are in error. The NT presents one divine physical person (Jesus), one divine spirit Eph 4: 4, and three titles for members of the Trinity.

Jesus never said that the comforter would be a person. Jesus declares that the Paraclete (comforter) is the spirit of truth: John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. However as Eph 4:4 states there is one spirit and Jesus states in John 14:6 that He is the Truth.

This is a good argument for personhood of one type or another, however it does not necessitate a different person. Also the fact that the comforter is another does not necssitate a different person either. If I say I will send a letter of comfort to you, the letter does not represent a different person simply because I am not comforting you in my physical person. Yet the letter is meant to be another comforter to you different from the comfort I can give in my physical person.

 

[smokydot]

You are in error. The NT presents one divine physical person (Jesus), one divine spirit Eph 4: 4, and three titles for members of the Trinity.

Jesus never said that the comforter would be a person. Jesus declares that the Paraclete (comforter) is the spirit of truth: John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. However as Eph 4:4 states there is one spirit and Jesus states in John 14:6 that He is the Truth.

This is a good argument for personhood of one type or another, however it does not necessitate a different person. Also the fact that the comforter is another does not necssitate a different person either. If I say I will send a letter of comfort to you, the letter does not represent a different person simply because I am not comforting you in my physical person. Yet the letter is meant to be another comforter to you different from the comfort I can give in my physical person.

Not a good analogy, because your letter can in no way be construed as you, the person.
It is just a letter, it is not you, notwithstanding what it accomplishes.

 

[Muffled]

Without going into it too much further, I would be interested in why you conclude the Bible is wrong in post #139 (which includes posts #135, #137).

Thanks.

I would have to agree. Where else would one be able to find out about the paraclete other than the Bible?

It is true that the Qu'ran intimates him but it is so understated that it would be easy to miss.

Fortunately the Bible does not support a three person divinity and does not lose its validity because someone espouses that which is not present in the Bible.

 

[smokydot]

I would have to agree. Where else would one be able to find out about the paraclete other than the Bible?

It is true that the Qu'ran intimates him but it is so understated that it would be easy to miss.

Fortunately the Bible does not support a three person divinity and does not lose its validity because someone espouses that which is not present in the Bible.

See thread, Prophet Jesus Never Claimed Divinity, post #96, in this Forum for thorough presentation of Jesus' divinity,

and see post #125 on this thread for the Biblical basis of the Trinity.

 

[sojourner]

If you are talking about the church of the first century, NO ONE even dreamed of a trinity. Everyone KNEW that there is only one God, as is mentioned in the Bible several times.
There are numerable scriptures that speak about one God, but just consider several scriptures that say exactly that.
Consider Deut 6:4 which says our God is ONE GOD. The original scripture says Jehovah is one God. The Proper name Jehovah was written in the original scriptures over 7,000 times.

First of all Deuteronomy was written significantly before the first century -- by not-Christians. Second, "Jehovah" never appears in the texts. At all. "Jehovah" is a pronounceable conglomeration of English and German versions of the tetragrammaton.

Gal 3:20, says that God is only ONE.

what's your point? God is One.

At John 17:3, Jesus himself said that there is only ONE true God, separating himself from God, as he was the one sent forth.

I don't read any separation language here. In the context of the entire passage, Jesus (the Son) speaks to the Father. Both are God -- each is a separate Person of that one God.

At 1Cor 8:4-6, tells us that there are those CALLED gods, but there is only ONE GOD THE FATHER, to Christians, and ONE Lord, Jesus.

"God" and "Lord" would be the same thing, since, in the Hebrew text of Genesis, "Lord" is translated from "YHWH."

At John 8:16-18, where Jesus is making a point about having to have TWO witnesses to prove something true. Then Jesus said that He was ONE Witness, and the Father was ONE Witness. They had to be separate people for this principle to be true.

And so they are; but they're still both God.

Another point; at John 5:22, Jesus said that the Father does not judging at all, but has given all the judging to the son. If they were the same person, Jesus would be lying. Jesus never lied, he never even said things that were deceitful, 1Pet 2:21,22.

They aren't the same person. They are two persons, both of which are God.

Jesus also said that what he taught was not his, but belonged to the one who sent him, John 7:16.

Again, not a problem if the Father and the Son are two separate persons, and yet both God.

Jesus said that he LIVES because of the Father, John 6:57. That means that there was a time when Jesus did not live, or exist.

And yet, John contradicts this in his opening statement: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God..."

We are told that a Father cause the birth of a chile, Prov 23:22.
A very interesting several scriptures are found at Prov 8:22-31, which most Bible schlors believe to be talking about Jesus, here personified as wisdom.

Any scholar worth the paper his diploma is printed on will tell you that the OT refers not one time to Jesus. The writers had no concept of Jesus, and most of God's people didn't believe in Jesus, anyway, when he did appear.

None of your arguments hold water.

 

[ninerbuff]

That translates to 1 x 1 x 1 = 1

I have 1 + 1 + 1 = 3.

I have one apple. I put the apple on the counter and I put the apple in a bag and I eat the apple. I have three instances of the same apple. I do not have three apples.

If you ate the apple first, then it wouldn't exist on the counter and in the bag.

 

[Mutaqalimun]

Mathematically & Scientifically speaking:

If Water in Reservoir A equals X, and Water in Reservoir B equals Y, last Water in Reservoir C equals Y then how much it is if X+Y+Z or X . Y . Z ? (. = times)

X=1, Y= 1, Z=1 SO the answer is 3 for the X+Y+Z AND 1 for X.Y.Z

but is this kind of logic valid in Law of Physics? absolutely not !!!
but strangely enough this kind of logical error often being applied to criticize to TRINITY

THE RIGHT MEASUREMENT SHOULD BE:

Water in Reservoir A is equals X gallon, Water in Reservoir B equals Y gallon, and Water in Reservoir C equals Z gallon.

If the measure is the same ( X<=>Y, and Y<=>Z) and the measure is 1 Gallon then
the answer for X+Y+Z is 3 Gallons and for X+Y+Z is 1 Cubic Gallons.

Now how about God? How do measure God? The most optimum mathematics to representate God is &#8734;
So IF X equals the measure of The Father , and Y equals the measure of The Son, Z equals the measure of The Holy Spirit

then X + Y + Z = &#8734; + &#8734; + &#8734; = &#8734;
x.Y.Z = &#8734; x &#8734; x &#8734; = &#8734;


I hope it may help for clearer understanding

 

[Muffled]

Mathematically & Scientifically speaking:

If Water in Reservoir A equals X, and Water in Reservoir B equals Y, last Water in Reservoir C equals Y then how much it is if X+Y+Z or X . Y . Z ? (. = times)

X=1, Y= 1, Z=1 SO the answer is 3 for the X+Y+Z AND 1 for X.Y.Z

but is this kind of logic valid in Law of Physics? absolutely not !!!
but strangely enough this kind of logical error often being applied to criticize to TRINITY

THE RIGHT MEASUREMENT SHOULD BE:

Water in Reservoir A is equals X gallon, Water in Reservoir B equals Y gallon, and Water in Reservoir C equals Z gallon.

If the measure is the same ( X<=>Y, and Y<=>Z) and the measure is 1 Gallon then
the answer for X+Y+Z is 3 Gallons and for X+Y+Z is 1 Cubic Gallons.

Now how about God? How do measure God? The most optimum mathematics to representate God is &#8734;
So IF X equals the measure of The Father , and Y equals the measure of The Son, Z equals the measure of The Holy Spirit

then X + Y + Z = &#8734; + &#8734; + &#8734; = &#8734;
x.Y.Z = &#8734; x &#8734; x &#8734; = &#8734;


I hope it may help for clearer understanding

The infinity of God is an attribute not an essence or identity.
You err when you say that Jesus is infinite because He is only to be cosidered within the finite frame of the body. The same is true of the Paraclete (Holy Spirit) which is finite for each body it is in and does not describe God outside of those bodies.

God is a spirit.
Spirits are able to indwell (be in control of) men.
God indwells Jesus.
God indwells believers.

Why is this different from God omnipresent? In the instance of an unbeliever God is there but not indwelling and not directly in control.

I could liken this to having a telephone. Theoretically you could call everyone but in reality some have blocked any calls from God.

 

[Mutaqalimun]

The infinity of God is an attribute not an essence or identity

As well is His ALL UNIFIED-ONENESS

Lion is Might.......but God is All-Mighty(Infinite Might)
I Know .......but God is All-Knowing (Infinite Knowledge)

I'm a ONE-UNIFIED (My Body,My Soul,My Spirit)=FINITE UNIFIED ONE
GOD is ALL ONE-UNIFIED TRINITY (Father,Son&Holy Spirit) = INFINITE UNIFIED ONE
:yes:

. You err when you say that Jesus is infinite because He is only to be cosidered within the finite frame of the body.

Please dude..don't mix Christology (100% God and 100% human) and Trinity

The same is true of the Paraclete (Holy Spirit) which is finite for each body it is in and does not describe God outside of those bodies.

God is Holy Spirit, and He is not Infinite?...Hmmm..That's new
I think we shouldn't compare God's Spirit with human spirit, shall we?

I don't know about you, by i believe in Infinite God


P.S Yo..Bro r..u a Moslem or Atheist? why u identified yourself as Christian? I'm noticing ALL of your comments are Anti-Christian. Little advice Hommie..Just B Yourselves! and don't b ashamed of what you believe in, or maybe because you yourself have already ashamed of your true ideology so you pretending yourself as Christian?

 

[smokydot]

The infinity of God is an attribute not an essence or identity.
You err when you say that Jesus is infinite because He is only to be cosidered within the finite frame of the body. The same is true of the Paraclete (Holy Spirit) which is finite for each body it is in and does not describe God outside of those bodies.

God is a spirit.
Spirits are able to indwell (be in control of) men.
God indwells Jesus.
God indwells believers.

Why is this different from God omnipresent? In the instance of an unbeliever God is there but not indwelling and not directly in control.

You know that God is always in control.

I could liken this to having a telephone. Theoretically you could call everyone but in reality some have blocked any calls from God.

 

[smokydot]

Ok. Well if that's the bible's doctrine of the Godhead, then the bible is wrong.

That is called unbelief.

 

[smokydot]

You are in error. The NT presents one divine physical person (Jesus), one divine spirit Eph 4: 4, and three titles for members of the Trinity.

We've been there, we've done this already, in post #147.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . .the Word became flesh" (Jn 1:1).
Jesus, the Word made flesh, is both divine and human.

Jesus never said that the comforter would be a person. Jesus declares that the Paraclete (comforter) is the spirit of truth: John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come.

Jesus' very words (in red) show that the Holy Spirit is a person, a "he."

However as Eph 4:4 states there is one spirit and Jesus states in John 14:6 that He is the Truth.

This is a good argument for personhood of one type or another, however it does not necessitate a different person. Also the fact that the comforter is another does not necssitate a different person either. If I say I will send a letter of comfort to you, the letter does not represent a different person simply because I am not comforting you in my physical person. Yet the letter is meant to be another comforter to you different from the comfort I can give in my physical person.

As you say above, your letter is a representation. You and a representation of you are not the same entity, just as another Counselor, like Jesus was a counselor, is not the same entity as Jesus.

These texts show that the Holy Spirit is a divine person distinct from Jesus, the divine person.

 

[smokydot]

First of all Deuteronomy was written significantly before the first century -- by not-Christians. Second, "Jehovah" never appears in the texts. At all. "Jehovah" is a pronounceable conglomeration of English and German versions of the tetragrammaton.
what's your point? God is One.
I don't read any separation language here. In the context of the entire passage, Jesus (the Son) speaks to the Father. Both are God -- each is a separate Person of that one God.
"God" and "Lord" would be the same thing, since, in the Hebrew text of Genesis, "Lord" is translated from "YHWH."
And so they are; but they're still both God.
They aren't the same person. They are two persons, both of which are God.
Again, not a problem if the Father and the Son are two separate persons, and yet both God.
And yet, John contradicts this in his opening statement: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God..."
Any scholar worth the paper his diploma is printed on will tell you that the OT refers not one time to Jesus. The writers had no concept of Jesus, and most of God's people didn't believe in Jesus, anyway, when he did appear.

Well, your scholars' diplomas aren't worth the paper they're written on, because the Messiah was the promise of the OT.
Jesus, by word, deed and sinless life, proved he was that Messiah.

NB: Your scholars' diplomas are also shown to be worthless in their interpretation of the parable of the leaven, and in
their (lack of) exegesis of 1 Co 11:31-32, regarding God's judgment being punishment (chastisement).

None of your arguments hold water.

How could the wise men have been told that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem, if nothing was known about him in the OT?

 

[ellenjanuary]

Wanna know where the trinity really comes from? The smallest form of structure in the universe is the triangle.

Jesus is god - is being. God is god - is being. Holy Spirit is god, is becoming. In simplest terms, Jesus is a tool given to man whereby our kind of being (sinful) can become closer to god on earth (without sin) through the religion of becoming (Christianity, ideally) through the power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, however... that's where they got stuck, back in the day. I have an hypothesis:

God does not do sequential time. When god does sequential time, however, he is the Holy Spirit - but the Holy Spirit cannot be put into words.

 

[ellenjanuary]

Mathematically & Scientifically speaking:

If Water in Reservoir A equals X, and Water in Reservoir B equals Y, last Water in Reservoir C equals Y then how much it is if X+Y+Z or X . Y . Z ? (. = times)

X=1, Y= 1, Z=1 SO the answer is 3 for the X+Y+Z AND 1 for X.Y.Z

but is this kind of logic valid in Law of Physics? absolutely not !!!
but strangely enough this kind of logical error often being applied to criticize to TRINITY

THE RIGHT MEASUREMENT SHOULD BE:

Water in Reservoir A is equals X gallon, Water in Reservoir B equals Y gallon, and Water in Reservoir C equals Z gallon.

If the measure is the same ( X<=>Y, and Y<=>Z) and the measure is 1 Gallon then
the answer for X+Y+Z is 3 Gallons and for X+Y+Z is 1 Cubic Gallons.

Now how about God? How do measure God? The most optimum mathematics to representate God is &#8734;
So IF X equals the measure of The Father , and Y equals the measure of The Son, Z equals the measure of The Holy Spirit

then X + Y + Z = &#8734; + &#8734; + &#8734; = &#8734;
x.Y.Z = &#8734; x &#8734; x &#8734; = &#8734;


I hope it may help for clearer understanding

Is that some of that new mathematics right there?

I got a coupla problems with your math. First of all, infinity is intolerable in physics. If we actually knew something about infinity, the quest for workable theory of quantum gravitation would not be the mess that is now. Physicists use a method called "remormalization" for theories that produce infinities from equations.

Mathematics that considers Cantor set theory labels god, not as a lazy eight, but rather as a capital Greek omega. Absolute Infinity.

And gallon is a measurement of volume - a "cubic gallon" is double-talk. If your final result is three, each thing would measure not 1, but the cubed root of three - which is just a little more than one.

But, if you mean to say that the trinity makes sense, I got no problem there. I found all kinds of trinities - so much so that my synthetic religion, which is a word that just means a group of four, can be simply stated - I believe in the number four, that which follows the trinity.