The True Church

[FFH]

The King James is very messed up and incorrect in many many many places....

For what it's worth to anyone reading this...

2 Timothy 3: 16-17 (King James) has been changed from the original Greek, according to revelation given to Joseph Smith..

So this scripture in the King James is null and void, and was written by the hands of evil men who sought to change scripture to fit their beleifs...

Differences in the two versions have been highlighted'

Slight changes by the evil pens of men and you have a totally different meaning /connotation..

Very subtle sneaky stuff...clever, but not clever enought to fool a sharp eye...especially one who is receptive to direct revelation from Chrsit concerning this particular passage of scripture, which was changed from the original Greek....

Mock what I have posted here, it really doesn't matter to me, I already know this scripture was purposely changed from the origianl Greek to cover the tracks of those who changed all the other incorrect scriptures in the King James...

The King James is in gross error here...

King James version

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be percect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Timothey 3: 16-17 (Joseph Smith restored/correct version)

16 And all scripture, given by inspiration of God, is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness;

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[FFH]

Does the LDS church fit this description ?????

Yes or no

1. Believes that Jesus Christ is God. John 1:1

Yes, we believe in God the Son and God the Father

2. Has no Head of the church but Jesus. Ephesians 5:23

Yes, there is only one head of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and that man is Jesus Christ...

3. Teaches truth not Denominationalism. Mark 7:7-8

Yes, LDS church teaches truth's regarding the restored Church of Jesus Christ, which he established while on earth, by calling twelve apostles and other disciples/leaders to run his church in his absence...

4. Teaches that The Bible is the True Word of God, and is without error. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

Altered from the original Greek, by the hands of evil men...

5. Teaches that Authority comes from the word of God not leaders in the Church. 1 Thessalonians 4:2, Acts 2:42

These scriptures say nothing about any authority coming from the "word of God"...

Authority to do what we do comes from Jesus Christ, who has given his authority to John the Baptist by the laying on of hands and in turn John the Baptist has appeared to Joseph Smith and layed hands upon his head and given him the Aaronic Priesthood and then he in turn layed hands on another and so on and so on. J

esus Christ has also given the power to perform the necessary saving ordinance of the Melchizedek Priesthood, to Peter, James and John, who in turn appeared to Joseph Smith and layed hands on his head and gave him the same power, who again in turn layed hands on another and so on and so on......

For more info concerning the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood see this link: www.Mormon.org

6. Teaches Believers Baptism. Mark 16:16

Yes, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, by the power of the Aaronic priesthood, given to us by John the Baptist, who received it from Christ...

7. Teaches that Repentance and Baptism is for the Forgiveness of Sins and the way to receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38, Romans 6:3-4

Yes, but in order to have the gift (constant companionship) of the Holy Ghost, the power of the Melchizedek Priesthood is required, as is laying of of hands, in order to give this gift to another...

8. Teaches that Jesus is the only way to heaven. Acts 4:12

Yes, Jesus Christ is our link to the Father who dwells in heaven with Christ...

9. Teaches that Sinners will go to Hell. Revelation 21:8, 20:11-15

Yes, unrepentant sinners will suffer for their own sins in hell, but will be redeemed from hell, after they have payed for their own sins in hell, at which time they will receive a reward according to their degree of righteousness or lack thereof...

Christ is a righteous judge and will reward us according to our deeds done while in the body and our particular beliefs..

10. Takes care of the Poor. James 1:27

Yes, we fast once a month and give the money we would have spent on 3 meals to the LDS church, who in turn distributes it to the poor...

Many give way beyond 3 meals worth of money...

Many have given thousands over the years in addition to their tithes....

11. And does the Great Commission. Matthew 28:18-20

Yes, at any given time there are around 50,000 missionaries scattered throughout the world, in every possible area of the world that accepts missionaries...

I personally served just 5 minutes outside Tokyo, Japan (there are no LDS missionaries living in Tokyo) in a city called Kawasaki and also served in Yokohama and Fuji city and a few others.

2 Nephi 25 (Book of Mormon)

26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophecy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

I constantly listen to song sungs about Christ.

Click on this link and it (contemporary Christian music) will play automatically: www.CFRN.net (an unlikely source of some great Christian music.

or go to www.yeshome.com or www.KLove.com or www.BYUbroadcasting.com

 

[sojourner]

The King James is very messed up and incorrect in many many many places....

For what it's worth to anyone reading this...

2 Timothy 3: 16-17 (King James) has been changed from the original Greek, according to revelation given to Joseph Smith..

So this scripture in the King James is null and void, and was written by the hands of evil men who sought to change scripture to fit their beleifs...

Differences in the two versions have been highlighted'

Slight changes by the evil pens of men and you have a totally different meaning /connotation..

Very subtle sneaky stuff...clever, but not clever enought to fool a sharp eye...especially one who is receptive to direct revelation from Chrsit concerning this particular passage of scripture, which was changed from the original Greek....

Mock what I have posted here, it really doesn't matter to me, I already know this scripture was purposely changed from the origianl Greek to cover the tracks of those who changed all the other incorrect scriptures in the King James...

The King James is in gross error here...

King James version

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be percect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Timothey 3: 16-17 (Joseph Smith restored/correct version)

16 And all scripture, given by inspiration of God, is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness;

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

That would be a fine rebuttal, except that the King James version was translated from the MT, a much later work, and the NRSV was taken from the more ancient LXX, which would have been the version Paul was talking about (the LXX having been completed about a century prior to Christ).

The scripture Paul refers to would have been either the LXX or a Hebrew version of the Tanakh, since the NT was not yet formulated. The phrase "all scripture is inspired by God" is consistent with Pharisaical thought at the time of Paul. I don't buy your rebuttal.

 

[Ronald]

Then the speaker of this verse is wrong! Since there is no laying on of hands, nor Apostolic succession/catholic or mormon sopken of in the verse! Jn. 5:24
There even seems the speaker says that those he is speaking of are not to stand before the "Great White Throne" they have by-passed that and have eternal life.

Aaaahhh! the "Precepts of man." LOL

We need an ADDER here! Please! LOL

Kinda my impression that this applies to Jews as well who are blinded to the advent of the Moshiach Yeshua! But oh, well, Maybe I am perceiving, myself!?
Eye of the beholder.

But in my reading of all the scriptures, even the book of Mormon. Salvation is by faith, hearing the "Word of God", believing and keeping from turning back to idol worship.
Salvation is the easy part! Doing the "Will of God" requires a changed heart and the Holy Spirit with-in you. BTW No part of salvation requires any man to do anything for you! Salvation is the gift of God, your part hear the word, believe the word and keep your gift! No man can take it from you, you must turn it loose to lose it.
Now! that the easy part is done if you desire to enter the Royal Kingdom/City you must do great works! Jn. 14:12.

I believe the speaker of those verses, the one a voice came from the heavens and said; "This is my beloved son, hear him."

I have heard him and have his testamony and keep his commandments. To what benefit? I am become qualified for election, not elected, but qualified.
Shema v'shamar/Hear and observe.

Shalom

 

[FFH]

That would be a fine rebuttal, except that the King James version was translated from the MT, a much later work, and the NRSV was taken from the more ancient LXX, which would have been the version Paul was talking about (the LXX having been completed about a century prior to Christ).

Just as the Masoretic text is an altered Hebrew text, so is the Septuigait an altered Greek text.

Of course the changes happened long before the King James was copied/translated from these altered Greek and Hebrew (Masoretic) texts...

All the ancient texts I've seen closely, if not exactly, match up to the King James, so It is a given that they are all in error, according to the Joseph Smith restored version of the original Greek and Hebrew texts..

I know the Joseph Smith inspired version is the only correct English translation we have of the original Hebrew and Greek texts.

I know this through personal revelation given to me by the Holy Ghost, which I have a personal right to...

I can't prove it, only you can pray about it and find out for yourselves, just posting this stuff for what it may be worth to someone reading this...

Look carefully at our modern day translations of the Septuagint and you'll see that they have basically most of the same errors as the King James, which was translated/copied from another altered Greek text...

 

[sojourner]

Just as the Masoretic text is an altered Hebrew text, so is the Septuigait an altered Greek text.

Of course the changes happened long before the King James was copied/translated from these altered Greek and Hebrew (Masoretic) texts...

When were the texts of the LXX altered? If they were altered before Paul, then he, in all truthfulness, could not have written what he did. If they were altered after Paul, it's a moot point, because Paul was only talking about scriptures he knew.

Since we have a clear case of multiple attestation between both the LXX and the MT, I don't think we can clearly conclude that what Paul wrote here has undergone significant mistranslation or change, at least not enough to warrant further concern.

 

[FFH]

The scripture Paul refers to would have been either the LXX or a Hebrew version of the Tanakh, since the NT was not yet formulated. The phrase "all scripture is inspired by God" is consistent with Pharisaical thought at the time of Paul. I don't buy your rebuttal.

All scripture we have cannot be all inspired of God, becaues it's been corrupted so much over the years and I'm sure those who wrote the King James from the already severely altered tests made some changes of their own...

If "all scripture" has been given "by inspiration" of God then we need to add into the messed up mix, the Gnostic writings.

It would be more accurate to say, "all scripture, given by inspiration of God, is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works".

2 Timothey 3: 16-17 (Joseph Smith restored/correct version)

 

[FFH]

When were the texts of the LXX altered? If they were altered before Paul, then he, in all truthfulness, could not have written what he did. If they were altered after Paul, it's a moot point, because Paul was only talking about scriptures he knew.

Paul is writing what Christ is inspiring him to write. Christ was speaking through Paul by saying "all scripture, given by inspiration of God, is profitable for doctrione...

Christ was speaking through Paul by saying; all past, present and future scripture, inspired by God (Christ being the god of the Old and New Testament by the direction of the Father), is profitable for doctrine...

Since we have a clear case of multiple attestation between both the LXX and the MT, I don't think we can clearly conclude that what Paul wrote here has undergone significant mistranslation or change, at least not enough to warrant further concern.

Yes, and you would not know that all the ancient Hebrew and Greek texts had been altered unless you had a revelation concerning this..

No onw obviously has any physical proof (the original text having long since been destroyed) just as we have no physical proof of the existence of God, only personal witnesses from the Holy Ghost/Spirit of God himself to our hearts and minds..

 

[sojourner]

All scripture we have cannot be all inspired of God, becaues it's been corrupted so much over the years and I'm sure those who wrote the King James from the already severely altered tests made some changes of their own...

If "all scripture" has been given "by inspiration" of God then we need to add into the messed up mix, the Gnostic writings.

It would be more accurate to say, "all scripture, given by inspiration of God, is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works".

2 Timothey 3: 16-17 (Joseph Smith restored/correct version)

Why cannot the revisions be inspired by God, as well? Why can texts not be inspired by God, simply on the basis of their having been excluded from the canon? Could you kindly tell me at what point "the text" was not altered? Did the original writing differ at all from the stories as they existed in the oral tradition?

It would be most accurate to say that the scripture, as we have it, is the best we can do right now. If further scholarship or archaeology comes to light, we'll revise it accordingly. You see, the scriptures are living documents, not dead museum pieces.

 

[Ronald]

What I hear FFH to say is every man is right in his own eyes. But FFH this is not a compliment. As we see in the garden of Eden when mankind puts his mind and hands to what God said, things get corrupted. The further out from the orignal you go the more corrupt it gets.

Shalom

 

[FFH]

What I hear FFH to say is every man is right in his own eyes. But FFH this is not a compliment. As we see in the garden of Eden when mankind puts his mind and hands to what God said, things get corrupted. The further out from the orignal you go the more corrupt it gets.

Shalom

Yes and that's why we need God's help to discern what is inspired scripture and what has been altered from the original Old and New Testament texts.

Peace

 

[Ronald]

Jn. 14:26

In a Hebrew writing, an infant is born with the "Word of the Lord" stored in it's head, at birth an Angel touches it and it forgets.

Then Yeshua speaks of bringing to your remembrance. Coincidence! I think not!

Shalom

 

[athanasius]

Marks of the True Church

1. Believes that Jesus Christ is God. John 1:1

2. Has no Head of the church but Jesus. Ephesians 5:23

3. Teaches truth not Denominationalism. Mark 7:7-8

4. Teaches that The Bible is the True Word of God, and is without error. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

5. Teaches that Authority comes from the word of God not leaders in the Church. 1 Thessalonians 4:2, Acts 2:42

6. Teaches Believers Baptism. Mark 16:16

7. Teaches that Repentance and Baptism is for the Forgiveness of Sins and the way to receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38, Romans 6:3-4

8. Teaches that Jesus is the only way to heaven. Acts 4:12

9. Teaches that Sinners will go to Hell. Revelation 21:8, 20:11-15

10. Takes care of the Poor. James 1:27

11. And does the Great Commission. Matthew 28:18-20

Actually there are 4 marks to the true church.

1)." the Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13, CCC 813–822)

Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches (Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, and so on). The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church.His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2). Although some Catholics dissent from officially-taught doctrines, the Church’s official teachers—the pope and the bishops united with him—have never changed any doctrine. Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.

2).The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8, CCC 823–829)

By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23). But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).

3). The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10, CCC 830–856)

Jesus’ Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20). For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28). Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19).The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

4). The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20, CCC 857–865)

The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2). These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary’s special role, and much more —even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself.Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim."
These quotes are taken directly from here: http://www.catholic.com/library/pillar.asp

Enjoy!:yes:

 

[sojourner]

Paul is writing what Christ is inspiring him to write. Christ was speaking through Paul by saying "all scripture, given by inspiration of God, is profitable for doctrione...

Christ was speaking through Paul by saying; all past, present and future scripture, inspired by God (Christ being the god of the Old and New Testament by the direction of the Father), is profitable for doctrine...

Yes, and you would not know that all the ancient Hebrew and Greek texts had been altered unless you had a revelation concerning this..

No onw obviously has any physical proof (the original text having long since been destroyed) just as we have no physical proof of the existence of God, only personal witnesses from the Holy Ghost/Spirit of God himself to our hearts and minds..

This is clearly eisegetical. You're reading things into the passage that just aren't there in order to support your existing belief. If we were to properly exegete the passage, we would find that Paul says "all scripture." That could include only that scripture with which Paul was familiar, and to which he subscribed.

That would, of necessity, rule out anything in the NT, and any of the subsequent Mormon documents, such as BOM, D&C, POGP.

The early Church wrote, edited and compiled the scriptures as we have them today. They closed the canon, identifying the canon as the basis for revelation, not the sum total of revelation. The canon is a baseline. Since then, Church leaders and theologians have added to the revelation through writings and through Tradition.

The Restoration movement, though, with its eye on Sola Scriptura, threw out tradition and hoped to restore the Church to "Biblical Xy." Only what was revealed in the Bible could be accepted. No subsequent writings were to be considered authoritative, because they could not be in the canon which, to the Sola Scripturalist is the sum total of all revelation.

Sola Scripturalists use the Pauline passage as a line of demarcation. But that's not how Paul meant it.

Apparently, Mormons went a step further and decided that they wanted a return to "Biblical Xy," but that further revelation was also acceptable. What many don't realize is that this has been going on in the pre-Reformation Churches for centuries -- the ongoing existence of the "Biblical Church," with added revelation.

It's a straw man that does not bear tilting at.

 

[Ronald]

The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32).

Close! But, close counts only in Horseshoes.
This scripture never says anything about the "Bride of Christ."
Where did the "Bride of Christ" first appear in print? In the bible,NEVER!
Christian Commentary only. So are we playing Horseshoes? Or are we to be speaking "Truth."
My Dad was always speaking little truisms, he said, "Figures don't lie, but Liars can figure."
Christian Commenters are free to hop skip and jump all over the bible, tweek a little here, omit a little here and in no time at all they have a Bride of Christ! Yet none ever exisisted before.
Dump the Garbage and read the Bible from Genesis to Revelations and you will see an entirely new Moshiach! The truth will set you free!

Denominations keep you hostage, Y H V H set you free!

Shalom

 

[Mickey Mouse]

Close! But, close counts only in Horseshoes.
This scripture never says anything about the "Bride of Christ."
Where did the "Bride of Christ" first appear in print? In the bible,NEVER!
Christian Commentary only. So are we playing Horseshoes? Or are we to be speaking "Truth."
My Dad was always speaking little truisms, he said, "Figures don't lie, but Liars can figure."
Christian Commenters are free to hop skip and jump all over the bible, tweek a little here, omit a little here and in no time at all they have a Bride of Christ! Yet none ever exisisted before.
Dump the Garbage and read the Bible from Genesis to Revelations and you will see an entirely new Moshiach! The truth will set you free!

Denominations keep you hostage, Y H V H set you free!

Shalom

Revelation 19:7:

Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.

 

[sojourner]

Christian Commenters are free to hop skip and jump all over the bible, tweek a little here, omit a little here and in no time at all they have a Bride of Christ! Yet none ever exisisted before.

Spoken like a true Sola Scripturalist.

 

[athanasius]

Close! But, close counts only in Horseshoes.
This scripture never says anything about the "Bride of Christ."
Where did the "Bride of Christ" first appear in print? In the bible,NEVER!
Christian Commentary only. So are we playing Horseshoes? Or are we to be speaking "Truth."
My Dad was always speaking little truisms, he said, "Figures don't lie, but Liars can figure."
Christian Commenters are free to hop skip and jump all over the bible, tweek a little here, omit a little here and in no time at all they have a Bride of Christ! Yet none ever exisisted before.
Dump the Garbage and read the Bible from Genesis to Revelations and you will see an entirely new Moshiach! The truth will set you free!

Denominations keep you hostage, Y H V H set you free!

Shalom

Ok, then what would call a comparision to a husband and a wife and Christ and the Church as Eph 5 clealry shows? well Im waiting for a answer?????????????????? My wife is my bride. It's simple. This Church is also shown as Bride in as Rev 21:2. Helllooooooo!

 

[sojourner]

Dump the Garbage and read the Bible from Genesis to Revelations

I suppose, then, that the same sentiment would hold true for the Talmud? What about the deuterocanonicals?

 

[cardero]

athanasius writes: He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20). For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28). Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19).

Never in the 41 years of my life have I ever received or greeted a Catholic missionary at my door preaching any news, good or otherwise.