The true religion invites comparison

[Vinayaka]

Possible.

For the record, the Golden Rule does indeed appear in the scriptures of ALL the great religions!

Peace,

Bruce

deleted ... sorry mods

 

[Maya3]

I'm a Quranist. I only accept the Quran as word of God and religious doctrine. Most Muslims (Sunnis/Shias) would consider me an apostate because I don't follow their man made Hadith books. Ok so here's the deal from a Quranic point of view... Our ONLY purpose for existence is to worship God alone. No partners, no sons or daughters, no statues, no idols, no assistant gods, no saints, no ancestors, no graves of dead relatives, no spirits... Just God alone. As for one of the previous posts, murders, rapists, etc will have their punishment. These are sins according to Quran. But no sin compares to worshipping anything other than God alone. That is the greatest sin as we are denying the purpose of our creation. And if you die an unbeliever (polytheist), the punishment is eternal hell. If you repent before death, God is most forgiving. I find this totally fair. To worship God, you must let go of ego. At least in front of our creator. We would not exist were it not for him. He gave us free will. So if you want to pray to a monkey penis, that was your choice. Deal with the consequences. Must deny God out of pride and ego.

As for other religions, polytheist religions. Yes, Quran condemns the worship of anything other than God alone. And warns them of the day of judgment. But punishment for polytheists belongs to God alone. They'll get theirs on the day of judgment. We humans have no right to punish them here on Earth for their lack of faith. That's between each individual and God. All the pig faced scholars who are calling for the murder of apostates, idol worshipers, adulterers and homosexuals... Are following man made books (Hadith) or just making up baseless fatwas. God gives them no right to change or add to his laws. These ridiculous laws you will not find in the Quran. According to the Quran, we are only allowed to fight, kill in cases of self defense, oppression, if you are being kicked out of your homes or are not being allowed to practice your religion. If the non-believers are not doing any of the following, we are told to be equitable with them. Don't believe the pig faced scholars. They don't follow Quran.

[60:8] God does not prohibit you from those who have not fought you because of your faith, nor drove you out of your homes, that you deal kindly and equitably with them. For God loves the equitable.

[51:56] I did not create the Jinn and the humans except to worship Me.

[4:48] God does not forgive that partners be set up with Him, and He forgives lesser sins for whom He pleases. Whoever sets up partners with God has indeed invented a great sin.

[3:91] Those who have rejected and died while they were rejecters, if the earth full of gold were to be ransomed with it would not be accepted from any of them. For these there will be a painful retribution and they will have no supporters.

Nope, not been to hell after any of my lives!

Maya

 

[BruceDLimber]

As far as Buddhism, I think we've already had this discussion about whether it teaches theism or .

IMHO not much of a discussion is needed given these passages in the Buddhist scriptures:

"There is, O monks, an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. Were there not, O monks, this Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. Since, O monks, there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, created, formed. What is dependant, that also moves; what is independent does not move."
—(Udana 8:3)

and

"The one who does not desire anything,
"But directly knows even the uncreated;
"Not satisfied, such a one breaks off any
"Possibility for rebirth by swallowing
"What he has made. Such one is the Supreme!"
--Dhammapada 9

Buddhist scriptures also speak of “gods and men.”

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Muffled]

Oh. I thought you already knew. This is sort of like being carded while buying beer. Don't these grey hairs give them a clue?
links.....What the Bible Says About Hell | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site in particular there is John 3:16-21, and revelation using the term 'lake of fire'. :faint:

As for Islam....link The Hellfire described - Islam web - English
In both of these Abrahamic texts, the use of hell as an obvious threat is not such a big deal when describing the fate of sinners such as muderers, rapists, thieves, etc... But when the "sin" is simply not believing (as both Abrahamic texts clearly "flat out" dictate)...then we all can see the evil inherent in the system.
Its the people who can be good, usually by selectively ignoring various directives of their religious guides/texts.

Whatever. God puts eternal hellfire gun against your head: "Now I ain't sayin' what you gotta do. I'm just suggestin'....REALLLL nice like, that you think the way I want ya to. No pressure. BWAAAAHAAAHAHAHA!!!"
:no: A threat is a threat, no matter how one tries to dress it up.

I suppose I don't see it as a threat because Hell is never a choice I would make any more than I would choose to have someone shoot me in the head. However if the alternative were bad enough perhaps I would let myself be shot but in the case of God's requirements the alternatives are all good.

 

[Muffled]

Nope, not been to hell after any of my lives!

Maya

That you can remember.

I believe this is reasonable. The scripture seems to indicate to me that no-one goes there until the end of the world or 1000 years later at the last judgement.

 

[Jainarayan]

Isn't it kind of a waste or resources, including God's time, to just have one go-round of existence? This is why I can't accept a final judgment and a permanent end of the world. One who attains God's (Krishna's) state transcends all births deaths, creations and destructions.

 

[Maya3]

Isn't it kind of a waste or resources, including God's time, to just have one go-round of existence? This is why I can't accept a final judgment and a permanent end of the world. One who attains God's (Krishna's) state transcends all births deaths, creations and destructions.

Good point.

For something to exist for a while and then just die out without any transformation and without evolving has no purpose.

Muffled,

Why do you think someone would go to hell at the end of the world? If it's the end of everything (but not the end of hell?) what would that achieve?

Maya

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

IMHO not much of a discussion is needed given these passages in the Buddhist scriptures:

"There is, O monks, an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. Were there not, O monks, this Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. Since, O monks, there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, created, formed. What is dependant, that also moves; what is independent does not move."
—(Udana 8:3)

and

"The one who does not desire anything,
"But directly knows even the uncreated;
"Not satisfied, such a one breaks off any
"Possibility for rebirth by swallowing
"What he has made. Such one is the Supreme!"
--Dhammapada 9

Buddhist scriptures also speak of “gods and men.”

Peace,

Bruce

Both of those quotes are about Nirvana. The Buddha never denied the existence of gods, he denied that any of them were almighty, creator, judge, one and only, and any other epithet that Abrahamic religions apply to their god. Or have you not read such things as these found here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2107114-post1.html

It's one thing to pick and choose quotes you think supports your position, it's another thing entirely to understand that particular religion.

 

[natasha levchenko]

most of people are afraid of Hell.think of the fire,boiling pots,scalds.How do you feel about this idea? Many find it repugnant. They find it unreasonable that God would forever torture humans, keeping them in excruciating pain. Such a fiendish idea is contrary to the God of the Bible, for “God is love"
but have you ever thought of the origin of the word "HELL"? Translators have allowed their personal beliefs to color their work instead of being consistent in their rendering of the original-language words. For example: The King James Version rendered she’ohl′ as “hell,” “the grave,” and “the pit”; hai′des is therein rendered both “hell” and “grave”; ge′en·na is also translated “hell''
Eccl. 9:5,*10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all .*.*. All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.
we all have to be savvy at the religion we are practicing.

 

[Bird123]

I believe that the one true religion will embrace the spirit of freedom of religion and freedom to choose, confident that it will win out. Those of a false religion will tend to erect laws forbidding the free exchange of literature and freedom to practice it- thus indicating their falsity. Now look at the countries of particular concern and decide for yourself which religion(s) is subconsciously proclaiming itself false while claiming that it's true and will take over the world.)(

Very good!!! People are also bias toward their own beliefs and often, sometimes not realizing it, restrict the free speech and communications. Interaction might bring drama but it also brings resolution and enlightenment. Everyone carries a different view. This allows mankind a larger view than any one person could have. If a person attempts to restrict the views of others, they might never see the entire true picture that is out there. Mankind isn't a me. It's a WE. In short, let everyone say what they will. This should be true in all areas not just religion. Who knows what one might discover that they have never thought about.

Countries that allow more freedoms in business always do better economically. All those wonderful new ideas come out when they are not restricted.

 

[paarsurrey]

I believe that the one true religion will embrace the spirit of freedom of religion and freedom to choose, confident that it will win out. Those of a false religion will tend to erect laws forbidding the free exchange of literature and freedom to practice it- thus indicating their falsity.

I agree with you; it is a reasonable proposition.

 

[paarsurrey]

This is incorrect. The Quran says that those who believe in God, the angels, the messengers, and the last day, will have their reward with god. This does away with alot of eastern religion. The Quran also states that god hates the unbelievers. This does away with every religion but Islam. The Hadith separates man into two camps, the believers, or Ummah, and the unbelievers, the kafir. So how exactly does Islam foster the spirit of religious tolerance, and the freedom to choose one's religion? Even though the Quran says that Jews and Christians are basically the same as Muslims, they are highly persecuted in predominantly Islamic nations. So please explain how your statement is true.

Please quote the specific verse of Quran; that may clarify your point.

 

[John Martin]

I believe that the one true religion will embrace the spirit of freedom of religion and freedom to choose, confident that it will win out. Those of a false religion will tend to erect laws forbidding the free exchange of literature and freedom to practice it- thus indicating their falsity. Now look at the countries of particular concern and decide for yourself which religion(s) is subconsciously proclaiming itself false while claiming that it's true and will take over the world.)([/quote

Dear Gram,
There are no true religions or false religions. There is no division of true and false. We can only speak of conditioned truths and the unconditioned truth. So also we can only speak of conditioned religions and unconditioned RELIGION. In the conditioned truth we have two levels: individual and collective. Individual truth is that which limits the truth to individuals. it is individualism. Here Individual declares 'I am the way, the truth and the life'. The society is at the service of an individual.
Collective truth is a belief system. Individuals associate with the belief systems. Here individuals are at the service of belief systems or religions. These belief systems have their boundaries and the need to protect them or expand them. These belief systems may consider that their scripture or belief system is the absolute truth. Individuals belong to this level may be willing to die for the sake of their belief system or willing to kill others for the sake of their belief system.Here people say that 'religion is the way,the truth and the life'.
In the unconditioned truth also we have two levels: universal truth and unitary truth or divine truth.
Universal truth is not a belief system.It is the experience of unity with the whole of humanity and of creation and living with that understanding. In this level there is no Religion. There is no boundary. Hence there is no necessity of protecting one's boundary or expanding one's boundary. There is no belief but only an experience of essential unity. This unity is not based on what one believes( unity based on what one believes is an artificial unity.It will be gone the moment a person changes his or her belief) but essential unity that cannot be taken away. In this truth a person lives for the welfare of all. If a person lives for all then there is no need of any scripture,any religion or any external authority. whatever this person does to others this person does to himself or herself, since he or she is all. A person lives form the inner truth. Here also a person may say 'I am the way, the truth and the life' like in the individual level but it is not individual 'I' but universal 'I'.
The unitary truth is the divine truth. it is God who is the foundation of all the three levels of Truth. We can call it eternal Truth. This truth cannot be put into any belief systems, theological systems,moral systems,political systems and social systems. In this level a person will declare God is the way, the truth and the life.
If we use the analogy of a tree: a leaf represents individual truth, a branch represents collective truth, trunk represents universal truth and roots represent eternal Truth. RELIGION is that which helps human consciousness to grow from the awareness of a leaf to the awareness of the roots. It embraces all the four levels of truths. It includes religious truths but transcends them. Religions stop individuals at the level of branches. They absolutize the branches and consider conditioned truth as absolute truth. This understanding blocks the spiritual evolution of human consciousness and produces divisions,conflict and violence. Religion cannot be a RELIGION only Individuals who have grown into the eternal truth,roots, can guide people on this journey. Religions stop people at the level of branches and they are not capable of taking people beyond.
RELIGION embraces the spirit of freedom of religion and freedom to choose. It facilitates spiritual growth. it is confident that ultimately everyone will come to the Divine Truth.
Religion( conditioned truth absolutied) will tend to erect laws forbidding the free exchange of literature and freedom to practice it. It becomes exclusive. The presence of other truths make its insecure and this insecurity produces fear. The other truths have to be either conquered or eliminated or it tries to absorb them. It does not even hesitate to use violence to protect its. This fear and insecurity within creates also insecurity and fear in the others. We give to others what we have within. Religions belong to the level of branches or conditioned truths. The phenomenon of religious conversions belong to the level of branches. it is the conditioned truth that wants to convert other conditioned truths. It is converting people from one branch to another branch.
Hence the problem is not between True religion or false religion but between conditioned truths and the unconditioned truths. We cannot begin our spiritual life with the unconditioned truths. We need conditioned truth but only as nests until we are ready to move into the freedom of the unconditioned truths. Conversion has to be basically from the conditioned truth to the unconditioned truth. It is a continuous inner process of purification in which we growing from the leaves to the roots and then being the whole tree.
So we need to be careful not to absolutize conditioned truths. The leaves fall away and the new leaves will come. The branches may live longer and they may also fall away but the Truth continuously renews itself, brings forth new branches and new leaves. We should connect ourselves to the roots and nourish the whole tree. We should not try to cling to the transient,the unreal(asat) but always rooted in the eternal, the Real, Sat. In this sense the only way we can have a violence free world is when religions expand themselves into RELIGION.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Please quote the specific verse of Quran; that may clarify your point.

4:136, 2:62, 5:69. Those are the ones off the top of my head. But why do you ask what verses I spoke of-surely you know your own book better than I do.

 

[paarsurrey]

4:136, 2:62, 5:69. Those are the ones off the top of my head. But why do you ask what verses I spoke of-surely you know your own book better than I do.

I take the first reference mentioned by you and give it here with one verse preceding and one verse following for the context:

[4:136] O ye who believe! be strict in observing justice, and be witnesses for Allah, even though it be against yourselves or against parents and kindred. Whether he be rich or poor, Allah is more regardful of them both than you are. Therefore follow not low desires so that you may be able to act equitably. And if you conceal the truth or evade it, then remember that Allah is well aware of what you do.
[4:137] O ye who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger, and in the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger, and the Book which He revealed before it. And whoso disbelieves in Allah and His angels, and His Books, and His Messengers, and the Last Day, has surely strayed far away.
[4:138] Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor will He guide them to the way.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

I don't think the verse is in any way against other religions; to me, other religions are not even remotely mentioned in the verse or in the verses in the context.

Will one kindly justify one's viewpoint from the verse 4:136/137?

 

[Revoltingest]

Thanks to Savagewind for the very first decent and courteous reply I've received since joining this website and forum! It pains me to say that those having found joy and peace in their faith are far more likely to be civil than those who have not. They are at the very least ladies and gentlemen.

Unfortunately, you've waded into a topic which has been thoroughly trampled already, so you're likely to find many
posters who want some fun. If you post a novel or more specific take on the "true religion" topic, you'll reap better results.
Ra men!

 

[paarsurrey]

IMHO not much of a discussion is needed given these passages in the Buddhist scriptures:

"There is, O monks, an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. Were there not, O monks, this Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. Since, O monks, there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, created, formed. What is dependant, that also moves; what is independent does not move."
—(Udana 8:3)

and

"The one who does not desire anything,
"But directly knows even the uncreated;
"Not satisfied, such a one breaks off any
"Possibility for rebirth by swallowing
"What he has made. Such one is the Supreme!"
--Dhammapada 9

Buddhist scriptures also speak of “gods and men.”

Peace,

Bruce

Buddha believed in one true God.
Thanks BruceDLimber
Regards

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Buddha believed in one true God.
Thanks BruceDLimber
Regards

No, and we've told you this before, many times.

Don't pretend you don't remember.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2107114-post1.html

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/132908-buddha-believed-creator-god.html

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

So when the Buddha said there was no creator god, what? Was he mistaken, just trying to fool us, what? I can't understand how the Buddha could make clear statements that there is no creator god, and yet some people, not even familiar with the religion, could still assert that he did believe in one, with no evidence to back up that claim.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

So when the Buddha said there was no creator god, what? Was he mistaken, just trying to fool us, what? I can't understand how the Buddha could make clear statements that there is no creator god, and yet some people, not even familiar with the religion, could still assert that he did believe in one, with no evidence to back up that claim.

The joys of syncretism.