Gharib
I want Khilafah back
and what religion did you have up untill you chose your own? did you have a religion?
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The Vortex beckons,how many contradictions and errors are in the Qur'an
- Thread starter England my lionheart
- Start date
and what religion did you have up untill you chose your own? did you have a religion?
I don't remember much as a child, but I don't remember having a serious belief in God, as I saw God as the King of the angels, as some supreme angel sitting on a golden throne in the clouds.
During my teenage years, I developed a polytheistic nature-based religion, and to this day still retain elements of that belief. (Such as the Living Gaia.)
It was all created by me, though influenced by certain outside sources like movies and video games. (Mostly just in names and designs, though; the actual gods and mythology bore pretty much no resemblance whatsoever to any film or game.)
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
and agnostics are similar to atheists, NO. if so then hence "I don't remember having a serious belief in God" is that right?
Agnostics are not similar to atheists. Agnostics are people who will not claim they know. I am agnostic, yet I'm a theist.
My parents didn't speak much about God; everything I heard mostly came from the playground and TV. (None of the books that were read to me mentioned God.)
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
so then you agree with the follwoing hadith:
The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)
you didn't know of god cos your parents werent into that stuff, thats what the hadith says.
Wouldn't I have remembered God, though? Because my parents did not mold my view on God, I should have remained a Muslim; yet, I did not. Even when I had somewhat an idea of what God was, I did not worship him in any way, nor did I pray.
This hadith is no more credible than astrology or self-fulfilled prophecies. I could say something similar: that all babies are born knowing their past lives, but that they forget as they go along in life. Though I believe in reincarnation, such a statement would be just as worthless because I can't prove it.
Heck, I could also state that all children are born knowing Siva, but are then made atheists, Jews, Muslims, Christians, Vaisnavites, etc... and it would still be worthless for the same reason.
Therefore, I have no reason whatsoever to believe this hadith to be true.
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
how can an infant or child know things unless they ate taught?
thats understandable, the hadith doesn't say that if a childs parents die then he will end up being a good muslim. nor that the child will know what is the right path by default. you have to be raised in an islamic environment in order to be able to pray and all that, you don't know that stuff by default. you didn't remain a muslim because you weren't born in a muslim family so you had a different faith or lack of one.
and i'll just say you copied prophet Muhamed (saws). no other religion has said anything of the like but islam, now i'm not saying that just because islam is the only religion that says it, it must be true. but it is true cos thats how it is.
you would be copying Muhamed (saws), so it would be worthless.
you don't have to if you don't want to. i sure can't make you. it's up to you. but it is true though.
Then how can such a child be born Muslim?
If a child is born Muslim, then it must be the default position; therefore, any child who is not taught by parents what to believe, must remain Muslim.
You sure? How can you be sure something similar isn't said in other texts much older? After all, the Hindu body of texts is so massive that NO ONE could study them all in a single lifetime.
No, it's worthless because it cannot be proven. Heck, can it even be proven that Mohammad even said that?
I have no reason whatsoever to believe such. You may say it's true, but that doesn't make it true.
I cannot with good reason believe the hadith without some support, which it has none. A statement without support is like a house without foundation; it crumbles to the ground.
Besides, shouldn't I have remembered Allah and Islam once I was taught about it in Junior High and High School? Or, heck, shouldn't I have known what the characters in Aladdin were saying when they mentioned Allah? (Which they do; I think Allah is mentioned three times; as a child, I had no clue what they were talking about; heck, when the Sultan says to Raja the tiger, "Allah forbid you should have any daughters," I though he was saying, "I'll-a forbid you...".) This was when I was about... 4 or 5.
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kai
ragamuffin
i found this on a mormon site
Life before mortal life
If life doesn't start with conception and birth, when does it start? For Mormons, it never really started, because each person has an eternal essence that has always existed. However, Mormons believe that God created spiritual bodies to house each person's eternal essence, so he's the spiritual father of humankind. All human spirits were born before the earth was created.
Sitting at the knee of God and his wife, many spirit children expressed a desire to grow up and become like their Heavenly Parents. So God set up the plan of salvation, which involved creating an earth where his children could gain physical bodies and go through a challenging test of faith and obedience. Those who pass the test with flying colors get the chance to eventually start an eternal family like God's.
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/contemplating-the-mormon-worldview.html
so i take it everyone is born Mormon ? if that is so then its a belief not unique to Islam.
Life before mortal life
If life doesn't start with conception and birth, when does it start? For Mormons, it never really started, because each person has an eternal essence that has always existed. However, Mormons believe that God created spiritual bodies to house each person's eternal essence, so he's the spiritual father of humankind. All human spirits were born before the earth was created.
Sitting at the knee of God and his wife, many spirit children expressed a desire to grow up and become like their Heavenly Parents. So God set up the plan of salvation, which involved creating an earth where his children could gain physical bodies and go through a challenging test of faith and obedience. Those who pass the test with flying colors get the chance to eventually start an eternal family like God's.
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/contemplating-the-mormon-worldview.html
so i take it everyone is born Mormon ? if that is so then its a belief not unique to Islam.
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
hope this helps
The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)
Islam is the religion of all Prophets, Adam to Muhammad. Children are not born out of any sin, original, inherited or derived. They are born on the religion of their nature, i.e., Islam.
RECOGNITION OF ALLAH
The question which arises here is, "How can all people be expected to believe in Allah given their varying- backgrounds, societies and cultures? For people to be responsible for worshipping Allah they all have to have access to knowledge of Allah. The final revelation teaches that all mankind have the recognition of Allah imprinted on their souls, a part of their very nature with which they are created.
In Soorah Al-A'raaf, Verses 172-173; Allah explained that when He created Adam, He caused all of Adam's descendants to come into existence and took a pledge from them saying, Am I not your Lord? To which they all replied, " Yes, we testify to It:'
Allah then explained why He had all of mankind bear witness that He is their creator and only true God worthy of worship. He said, "That was In case you (mankind) should say on the day of Resurrection, "Verily we were unaware of all this." That is to say, we had no idea that You Allah, were our God. No one told us that we were only supposed to worship You alone. Allah went on to explain That it was also In case you should say, "Certainly It was our ancestors who made partners (With Allah) and we are only their descendants; will You then destroy us for what those liars did?" Thus, every child is born with a natural belief in Allah and an inborn inclination to worship Him alone called in Arabic the "Fitrah".
If the child were left alone, he would worship Allah in his own way, but all children are affected by those things around them, seen or unseen.
The Prophet (PBUH) reported that Allah said, "I created my servants in the right religion but devils made them go astray". The Prophet (PBUH) also said, "Each child is born in a state of "Fitrah", then his parents make him a Jew, Christian or a Zoroastrian, the way an animal gives birth to a normal offspring. Have you noticed any that were born mutilated?" (Collected by Al-Bukhaaree and Muslim).
So, just as the child submits to the physical laws which Allah has put in nature, his soul also submits naturally to the fact that Allah is his Lord and Creator. But, his parents try to make him follow their own way and the child is not strong enough in the early stages of his life to resist or oppose the will of his parents. The religion which the child follows at this stage is one of custom and upbringing and Allah does not hold him to account or punish him for this religion. (By Abu Ameena Bilal Phillips ) Every Child is Born Muslim
yes this is correct. if your parents don't teach you nothing then you are a muslim by default up untill you choose some other religion.
that very statement proves that hinduism isn't a real religion then. the burden of the religion is much greater than any man can bare. religions aren't meant to be hard nor complicated. do you agree?
yes the following hadith does:
The Prophet (PBUH) reported that Allah said, "I created my servants in the right religion but devils made them go astray". The Prophet (PBUH) also said, "Each child is born in a state of "Fitrah", then his parents make him a Jew, Christian or a Zoroastrian, the way an animal gives birth to a normal offspring. Have you noticed any that were born mutilated?" (Collected by Al-Bukhaaree and Muslim).
like i said, it's up to you.
can i use the quran as support?
what should you have remembered about Allah and islam? i don't get this part.
how come i've never seen that version of Aladdin?
how could you have known what Allah means when you were born into a non arab speaking family?
kai
ragamuffin
i see a statement where is the proof ? ha ha
Aquitaine
Well-Known Member
eselam, children are born Neutral! They're born Agnostic (i.e don't deny or believe, will only believe if ther is credible evidence).
They cannot be born Atheist or Theist, because both A/Theists deny the existence of Gods.
There is nothing reliigous about what a baby does, it cries, poos, and eats. It doesn't pray, or worship, or do anything like that.
Children only "become" Religious if they're influenced by someone - usually their parents.
My parents had 4 children. I'm the youngest. Our eldest got baptised, and my Mum used to try and serve me Catholic ideas. However, over time my parents saw past religion, and we had practically no more influence. We were left to believe what we wanted to believe, they did not start throwing Atheism at us.
Over time, we learnt ourselves, and we're all Agnostic to say the least.
They cannot be born Atheist or Theist, because both A/Theists deny the existence of Gods.
There is nothing reliigous about what a baby does, it cries, poos, and eats. It doesn't pray, or worship, or do anything like that.
Children only "become" Religious if they're influenced by someone - usually their parents.
My parents had 4 children. I'm the youngest. Our eldest got baptised, and my Mum used to try and serve me Catholic ideas. However, over time my parents saw past religion, and we had practically no more influence. We were left to believe what we wanted to believe, they did not start throwing Atheism at us.
Over time, we learnt ourselves, and we're all Agnostic to say the least.
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
i do see a statement Paul. prove it that children are neutral or agnostic.
BTW you've made a mistake "born Agnostic (i.e don't deny or believe, will only believe if ther is credible evidence)"
another mistake. theists believe in god. atheists don't.
yeah they have no sins therefore, they are "submitters" (muslims)
so you agree with the hadith from the prophet.
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
Many people that do not have a religious upbringing but also not an irreligious upbringing often do not know what they believe. Some may become theists, others atheists, but I've met many who do not know what they believe, and many of them don't find it important.
In fact, one of my closest friends was raised without religion and irreligion. Religion was not mentioned in the house unless asked. That friend of mine now is, gasp, still agnostic!
So far we haven't been bringing our children up with religion - as you would expect since I don't have a religion at the moment as a seeker.
Yet, my children still eat with their left hands, they don't wake up at times for salah, they don't just suddenly go and try to do wudhu, they do nothing like that.
Many toddlers will copy their parents, so if you perform salah, your child will attempt to copy you - but the child will get it wrong. If you perform meditation, your child will attempt to copy you. If you are Christian and you put your hands together and lower your head, your child will too.
Children copy their parents. I have a damaged back, so I use a walking stick. When I'm not using it, my children will also walk with the walking stick and come to show me how they are being like daddy.
If you do not do anything like this, then your toddlers will not either.
If a child does not pray, eats with their left hand like the shaitan, does not enter the bathroom with their left hand, does not perform wudhu, and merely copies what the parent is doing, et cetera - then how are these children Muslims?
If I ask my daughter 'what religion are you?' is she going to say 'Muslim'? Or 'there is one God' or 'La illaha illa Allah'? Somehow I doubt it.. shall I try?
I know these things are not required from such young children, but how can these children be Muslims if they do not even attempt to be "correct Muslims" and, for example, some of them will even go out of their way to eat with their left hand as opposed to their right hand because it's more comfortable?
It's a large claim to make, especially when there is no basis in it - and there is virtually no way to prove or disprove it.
My $0.02
Aquitaine
Well-Known Member
eselam said:
What? You want me to "prove" that children arn't born religious?
When you were born, did you understand, or know of Allah or religion? No.
Birth a child, then leave it (influence-wise) and see what happens - it won't become a Muslim, or Christian etc, only if it has been influenced.
I don't see a mistake. But let me re-phrase then for better understanding. Children are born Neutral, Agnostic, Secular - free from religion, but not neccessarily against religion.
Agnostics don't deny God, any Agnostic would accept a God if credible evidence was put forth. Since there is none, they remain Agnostic, but would not become Atheist because that is to deny something. Nothing, can be 100% proven or 100% disproven since we're so limited in our knowledge and life experience.
Wrong. Theists believe in their God, Atheist reject all Gods. A Muslim rejects the Christian God, a Christian rejects the Muslim God etc.
An Agnostic rejects no God, but will not accept any because of a lack of credible evidence. Just because I do not believe in any of the Gods doesn't mean I 100% deny them - this is something that many Theists find difficult to grasp.
According to whom? Oh yeah, you're little scripture. The same scriptures which have no evidence to support they are divinly written and not just written by Men. The usual defense for that is just to bombard me with more scripture claiming the first scripture is true.
If you left the child (influence-wise), how likely is it that they would naturally start praying to Allah (and not the Jewish, Christian, Pagain, Greek, Aztec, Viking, Mayan Gods etc etc)? Will they, by themselves start performing Islamic acts?
Can a baby recite or even understand the Koran? No.
Therefore they are not Muslims.
I've only just arrived at this thread after some time, what Hadith are you on about?
jam.bar
Mr
Hey man. No worries.
I don't think anyone can argue with what you're saying there. I certainly can't It's just the way that you view the world. Just because it's different to mine doesn't make either of us more wrong or right than the other. I just see it as simply agreeing to disagree. You think Allah is going to decide whether or not the actions ive made in my life are bad, I don't think that will happen at all but I'm not going to try and convince you of the same views I have. That's not why i'm here.
The part where you said that if Allah willed it, then everybody would be muslims I don't quite get or see the point of but then I havn't read the Quran so I can't really have a proper debate about something I havn't read.