The Vortex beckons,how many contradictions and errors are in the Qur'an

[Riverwolf]

hope this helps

The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)
Islam is the religion of all Prophets, Adam to Muhammad. Children are not born out of any sin, original, inherited or derived. They are born on the religion of their nature, i.e., Islam.
RECOGNITION OF ALLAH

The question which arises here is, "How can all people be expected to believe in Allah given their varying- backgrounds, societies and cultures? For people to be responsible for worshipping Allah they all have to have access to knowledge of Allah. The final revelation teaches that all mankind have the recognition of Allah imprinted on their souls, a part of their very nature with which they are created.
In Soorah Al-A'raaf, Verses 172-173; Allah explained that when He created Adam, He caused all of Adam's descendants to come into existence and took a pledge from them saying, Am I not your Lord? To which they all replied, " Yes, we testify to It:'
Allah then explained why He had all of mankind bear witness that He is their creator and only true God worthy of worship. He said, "That was In case you (mankind) should say on the day of Resurrection, "Verily we were unaware of all this." That is to say, we had no idea that You Allah, were our God. No one told us that we were only supposed to worship You alone. Allah went on to explain That it was also In case you should say, "Certainly It was our ancestors who made partners (With Allah) and we are only their descendants; will You then destroy us for what those liars did?" Thus, every child is born with a natural belief in Allah and an inborn inclination to worship Him alone called in Arabic the "Fitrah".

If the child were left alone, he would worship Allah in his own way, but all children are affected by those things around them, seen or unseen.

The Prophet (PBUH) reported that Allah said, "I created my servants in the right religion but devils made them go astray". The Prophet (PBUH) also said, "Each child is born in a state of "Fitrah", then his parents make him a Jew, Christian or a Zoroastrian, the way an animal gives birth to a normal offspring. Have you noticed any that were born mutilated?" (Collected by Al-Bukhaaree and Muslim).​

So, just as the child submits to the physical laws which Allah has put in nature, his soul also submits naturally to the fact that Allah is his Lord and Creator. But, his parents try to make him follow their own way and the child is not strong enough in the early stages of his life to resist or oppose the will of his parents. The religion which the child follows at this stage is one of custom and upbringing and Allah does not hold him to account or punish him for this religion. (By Abu Ameena Bilal Phillips )

Every Child is Born Muslim

Not really. It's just a commentary on the verse, and frankly no more credible.

I am not attracted it Islam, or any other bhakti-based religion, for that matter. The idea of God being a transcendent king who requires worship in a certain way makes no sense to me.

yes this is correct. if your parents don't teach you nothing then you are a muslim by default up untill you choose some other religion.

And my parents taught me nothing. Why was I not a Muslim?

that very statement proves that hinduism isn't a real religion then. the burden of the religion is much greater than any man can bare. religions aren't meant to be hard nor complicated. do you agree?

Yup.

Hinduism also teaches that religion is not found in the scriptures; that scriptures are simply guidebooks. Krishna even says early in the Bhagavad-Gita, "O Arjuna! There are people who delight in the eulogistic statements of the Vedas and argue that the purport of the Vedas consists in these and nothing else. They are full of worldly desires; paradise is their highest goal; and they are totally blind in a spiritual sense." (BG 2:42-43)

Besides, the number of scriptures that are actually believed to be God-breathed are... the Four Vedas, and the hundreds of Agamas. (Which aren't available to the public.) I, personally, won't call them God-breathed until I've read them.

Many believe, including myself, that the Bhagavad-Gita pretty much sums up the nature of religion(in general), and is therefore really the only book necessary to read. It is also believed that since the Vedas and Agamas are so vast and numerous that God commissioned the Sage Vyasa, the compiler of the Vedas, to write both the Epics (Mahabharata and Ramayana) and the Puranas to help explain the Vedas. Any one of them would be enough.

Besides, Hinduism teaches the concept of reincarnation, which means everyone will know God sooner or later.

Gandhi once said that if all the scriptures of Hinduism were to suddenly disappear, and all that was left was the first verse of the Isa Upanisad, Hinduism would live forever:

1 All this—whatever exists in this changing universe—should be covered by the Lord. Protect the Self by renunciation. Lust not after any man's wealth.

If you want an idea of what the final teaching of Hinduism is, just look at why the Sufis were so hated by orthodox Muslims; what they found was almost identical to Hinduism.

yes the following hadith does:
The Prophet (PBUH) reported that Allah said, "I created my servants in the right religion but devils made them go astray". The Prophet (PBUH) also said, "Each child is born in a state of "Fitrah", then his parents make him a Jew, Christian or a Zoroastrian, the way an animal gives birth to a normal offspring. Have you noticed any that were born mutilated?" (Collected by Al-Bukhaaree and Muslim).

That doesn't prove anything. Just because it says it was written by Mohammad doesn't mean it was.

can i use the quran as support?

Thanks for asking.

Since I haven't finished reading it, and won't for a while (I've got a rather large reading list meantime), I still am on the fence about whether or not it is God-breathed, and if it is, what it means.

You can post some verses that you may believe back up the hadith, it won't necessarily be support. They have to be relevant.

what should you have remembered about Allah and islam? i don't get this part.

In Junior High and High School, we were taught about the Islam religion in History class, and the teachers attempted to be unbiased and educational about it, not painting Islam as a religion of war and terrorism. (None of my teachers taught that, luckily.) If I were born Muslim, and if Islam were imprinted in my DNA, then why did I not feel an attraction to the religion?

how come i've never seen that version of Aladdin?

Disney's Aladdin is one of their best. You should see it as soon as you can.

how could you have known what Allah means when you were born into a non arab speaking family?

Isn't the name Allah independent of Arabic if it is the True Name of God?

 

[Gharib]

Many people that do not have a religious upbringing but also not an irreligious upbringing often do not know what they believe. Some may become theists, others atheists, but I've met many who do not know what they believe, and many of them don't find it important.

exactly, it's due to the upbringing.

In fact, one of my closest friends was raised without religion and irreligion. Religion was not mentioned in the house unless asked. That friend of mine now is, gasp, still agnostic!

told you so.

So far we haven't been bringing our children up with religion - as you would expect since I don't have a religion at the moment as a seeker.

yes understandable

Yet, my children still eat with their left hands, they don't wake up at times for salah, they don't just suddenly go and try to do wudhu, they do nothing like that.

no one should expect them to do that. we learn as we grow, no one is born educated or learned. if you teach them that stuff they will do it, if you don't, then don't expect them to know it.

Many toddlers will copy their parents, so if you perform salah, your child will attempt to copy you - but the child will get it wrong. If you perform meditation, your child will attempt to copy you. If you are Christian and you put your hands together and lower your head, your child will too.

exactly what the hadith says.

Children copy their parents. I have a damaged back, so I use a walking stick. When I'm not using it, my children will also walk with the walking stick and come to show me how they are being like daddy.

i used to do the same with my grandfathers walking stick.

If you do not do anything like this, then your toddlers will not either.

precisely, but still they are muslim.

If a child does not pray, eats with their left hand like the shaitan, does not enter the bathroom with their left hand, does not perform wudhu, and merely copies what the parent is doing, et cetera - then how are these children Muslims?

the definition of a child being a muslim does not include the things you have mentioned. a child does not deny god, cos if you didn't read the article i posted it says that Allah creates our soul before we are born, and asks to testify that he is the only one god.thus the child is considered a muslim because he hasn't denied Allah, and even if a parent tel him to do so, it doesn't count because he was told to do so out of his own will. if it is that a toddler dies it goes to paradise. because it has not denied Allah and that he is the One God.

If I ask my daughter 'what religion are you?' is she going to say 'Muslim'? Or 'there is one God' or 'La illaha illa Allah'? Somehow I doubt it.. shall I try?

oh yes please. i don't think she will say that though. how about explaining to her a bit about Allah and a bit about another god other than that of the abraham religions. and ask her who she would love the most. that would be interesting.

I know these things are not required from such young children, but how can these children be Muslims if they do not even attempt to be "correct Muslims" and, for example, some of them will even go out of their way to eat with their left hand as opposed to their right hand because it's more comfortable?

but these things are irrelevant, young children do not think for themself. they aren't in control of their own lives like the rest of us.

It's a large claim to make, especially when there is no basis in it - and there is virtually no way to prove or disprove it.

well since it can't be dissproven then we just stick to it being true. what do you say?

My $0.02

no i think it's worth more. i'd give you 3 cents for it. ha ha lol

 

[nameless]

what i mean is that islam traches that every human is born a muslim, and that it is his father and mother that make him a jew or a christian or a fire-worshiper. thus from this we can conclude that in actual fact Adam was the first muslim.
Jamal

why there is some rituals for a new born, if everyone is born muslim?

 

[Gharib]

why there is some rituals for new born babies of muslims if everyone is born muslim?

what kind of ritual are you talking about?

it most probably is a cultural thing.

 

[nameless]

what kind of ritual are you talking about?

it most probably is a cultural thing.

it is known that these rituals are practiced to make a new born a muslim.

 

[Gharib]

it is known that these rituals are practiced to make a new born a muslim.

well can i know what they are exactly?

 

[Bismillah]

The new born isn't made a Muslim. The newborn is a Muslim. The ritual of giving thanks to God for a child and giving alms to the poor in exchange for such blessings seems to be partly a cultural act. Also the whispering of the Shahada in the newborn's ears is also something of a choice, as the parent chooses that the first thing the baby hears is worship of Allah. A child who is raised as a Non-Muslim will still have thought to have been a Muslim, until he/she consciously made the choice and turned away from Islam.

 

[Breathe]

no one should expect them to do that. we learn as we grow, no one is born educated or learned. if you teach them that stuff they will do it, if you don't, then don't expect them to know it.

So I think the problem is, when is a Muslim not a Muslim?

i used to do the same with my grandfathers walking stick.

Cute

precisely, but still they are muslim.

How though?

Allah creates our soul before we are born, and asks to testify that he is the only one god.thus the child is considered a muslim because he hasn't denied Allah, and even if a parent tel him to do so, it doesn't count because he was told to do so out of his own will.

But how can that be proven? I don't think it can be.

oh yes please. i don't think she will say that though. how about explaining to her a bit about Allah and a bit about another god other than that of the abraham religions. and ask her who she would love the most. that would be interesting.

I asked her how many gods there are and she said "One, two, eight .. no.. nine!".
Then "One God?" "Yes" "Two Gods?" "Yes" "Three Gods?" "Yes" "No Gods?" "Yes" "Millions of Gods?" "Yes" "One God?" "Yes".

I don't really want to go through the things too much and ask her which concept of God is the most true and stuff like that, because it seems incredibly unfair to put such strange questions on my daughter, really..

But form that, it pretty much confirms to me that children are born ignorant of concepts such as God and they are taught to them later. Then again, I don't believe in things such as hell.


What I found fascinating was when I said this: "Do we only live once?" and her response was "No silly daddy, I was before!"

This isn't the first time I've had a young child say they were here before though, my cousin also said it. And my nephew, weird huh? (I'd love to do some research into this kinda stuff, can anyone suggest any good books on past life regression in children?)

well since it can't be dissproven then we just stick to it being true. what do you say?

LOL! It also can't be proven, so can we stick to it being false?

no i think it's worth more. i'd give you 3 cents for it. ha ha lol

Aww, bless your heart. :flirt:

 

[England my lionheart]

Eselam,when a Child is born it knows three things,how to eat,how to poop and how to cry but the Child knows nothing of the concept of God

 

[Bismillah]

Eselam,when a Child is born it knows three things,how to eat,how to poop and how to cry but the Child knows nothing of the concept of God

You are completely right on the first part. A child is born innocent, he has done nothing to distance himself from God. Belief that the child has already met God prior to conception is the reason why children are assumed to be Muslim at birth. But, the moment the child makes a conscious decision to turn away from God, then he is no longer a Muslim. Humans were given the power to choose their decisions and to reap the results of their decisions.

 

[England my lionheart]

You are completely right on the first part. A child is born innocent, he has done nothing to distance himself from God. Belief that the child has already met God prior to conception is the reason why children are assumed to be Muslim at birth. But, the moment the child makes a conscious decision to turn away from God, then he is no longer a Muslim. Humans were given the power to choose their decisions and to reap the results of their decisions.

I could just as easily say everyone is born a Pagan and it would share the same truth level.

 

[YmirGF]

I could just as easily say everyone is born a Pagan and it would share the same truth level.

Exactly. It is a pretty shallow claim.

 

[Aquitaine]

I could just as easily say everyone is born a Pagan and it would share the same truth level.

Don't be rediculous: everybody's born Pastafarian.

 

[Gharib]

Eselam,when a Child is born it knows three things,how to eat,how to poop and how to cry but the Child knows nothing of the concept of God

what you have said is correct.
but it also knows how to stop crying, how to stop pooping, how to stop eating, how to sleep and how to wake up.

 

[Gharib]

I could just as easily say everyone is born a Pagan and it would share the same truth level.

well first you have to prove that the pagans have claimed this and that they never copied islam about this.

 

[Gharib]

Don't be rediculous: everybody's born Pastafarian.

prove it.

 

[Gharib]

What? You want me to "prove" that children arn't born religious?



When you were born, did you understand, or know of Allah or religion? No.

Birth a child, then leave it (influence-wise) and see what happens - it won't become a Muslim, or Christian etc, only if it has been influenced.

can you prove this?

I don't see a mistake. But let me re-phrase then for better understanding. Children are born Neutral, Agnostic, Secular - free from religion, but not neccessarily against religion.

how do you know this?

Agnostics don't deny God, any Agnostic would accept a God if credible evidence was put forth. Since there is none, they remain Agnostic, but would not become Atheist because that is to deny something. Nothing, can be 100% proven or 100% disproven since we're so limited in our knowledge and life experience.

there is proof that Allah exists. you can't dissprove that he doesn't exist, said it yourself.

Wrong. Theists believe in their God, Atheist reject all Gods. A Muslim rejects the Christian God, a Christian rejects the Muslim God etc.

there is only one god. not a whole pile of them.

An Agnostic rejects no God, but will not accept any because of a lack of credible evidence.

so they are atheists. will not accept god unless they see it.

Just because I do not believe in any of the Gods doesn't mean I 100% deny them - this is something that many Theists find difficult to grasp.

it's not us that find it difficult. an a gnostic is a disguised atheist. i don't deny but i don't believe. atheists deny cos they can't see god. if they could they would believe him and not deny. same thing as agnostic.

According to whom? Oh yeah, you're little scripture. The same scriptures which have no evidence to support they are divinly written and not just written by Men.

there is evidence that it is from god. you wright a scripture and see how you go.

The usual defense for that is just to bombard me with more scripture claiming the first scripture is true.

If you left the child (influence-wise), how likely is it that they would naturally start praying to Allah (and not the Jewish, Christian, Pagain, Greek, Aztec, Viking, Mayan Gods etc etc)?

well only Allah exists. so they would be praying to Allah and would find out about islam.

Will they, by themselves start performing Islamic acts?

no.

Can a baby recite or even understand the Koran? No.

no

Therefore they are not Muslims.

no, they are. a child does not need to know how to pray and recite the quran to be a muslim.

I've only just arrived at this thread after some time, what Hadith are you on about?

the one that says, it is a parent that makes a child an atheist, or a christian or an agnostic etc.

 

[Bismillah]

I could just as easily say everyone is born a Pagan and it would share the same truth level.

It's a belief that stems from faith. I don't have to prove that there is a heaven to make the claim that there is. It is something that stems from my faith and my acceptance of the Qur'an and the belief that everything the Qur'an states benefits me not only in the hereafter, but also now.

You could claim that everyone is born a Pagan and if you truly believed it then it would be similar to my belief that every newborn knows Allah. However, I wouldn't accept that claim since I don't adhere to it. I choose to accept the Qur'an and hence this Hadith and you deny it. There is no way to prove or disprove this statement, only to either believe or reject it.

so erm...there really isn't a contradiction

 

[Gharib]

Not really. It's just a commentary on the verse, and frankly no more credible.

I am not attracted it Islam, or any other bhakti-based religion, for that matter. The idea of God being a transcendent king who requires worship in a certain way makes no sense to me.

he doesn't require worship. he is independent of all things. we worship him for our benefit. if you want to know more about this, i will get you a link if you want.

And my parents taught me nothing. Why was I not a Muslim?

you were a muslim, but your parents taught you nothing. so you didn't know how to pray etc etc. and once you became mature enought to think fo yourself you left islam and have joined another religion.

Yup.
Hinduism also teaches that religion is not found in the scriptures; that scriptures are simply guidebooks.

well how can one know the whole and proper religion if the guide book is a greater burden on man that he can bare?

Krishna even says early in the Bhagavad-Gita, "O Arjuna! There are people who delight in the eulogistic statements of the Vedas and argue that the purport of the Vedas consists in these and nothing else. They are full of worldly desires; paradise is their highest goal; and they are totally blind in a spiritual sense." (BG 2:42-43)

i'm affraid i don't know what this verse means. i don't want to put my own interpretation on it?

Besides, the number of scriptures that are actually believed to be God-breathed are... the Four Vedas, and the hundreds of Agamas. (Which aren't available to the public.) I, personally, won't call them God-breathed until I've read them.

why aren't they available to the public? then that means in hinduism people aren't equal. am i right or is that a missinterpretation?

Many believe, including myself, that the Bhagavad-Gita pretty much sums up the nature of religion(in general), and is therefore really the only book necessary to read.

you see the burden of religion in hinduism is greater than man can bear. thus man decides what is worth reading/believing and what is not.

It is also believed that since the Vedas and Agamas are so vast and numerous that God commissioned the Sage Vyasa, the compiler of the Vedas, to write both the Epics (Mahabharata and Ramayana) and the Puranas to help explain the Vedas. Any one of them would be enough.

don't know much about that appart from having it made easy for the people.

Besides, Hinduism teaches the concept of reincarnation, which means everyone will know God sooner or later.

islam doesn't teach reincarnation (as in come back to earth as something else after you die) but it does say we will meet Allah.

Gandhi once said that if all the scriptures of Hinduism were to suddenly disappear, and all that was left was the first verse of the Isa Upanisad, Hinduism would live forever:

in islam if we burned all the wurans we will have millions of coppies within a short amount of time. we remember the quran by heart, it is all in our heads. we don't need paper all that much to keep the quran alive.

have you ever heard an arabic recitation of the quran? would you like to hear one? i can direct you to the best recitation there is.

1 All this—whatever exists in this changing universe—should be covered by the Lord. Protect the Self by renunciation. Lust not after any man's wealth.

If you want an idea of what the final teaching of Hinduism is, just look at why the Sufis were so hated by orthodox Muslims; what they found was almost identical to Hinduism.

are sufis hindu? do they follow the teachings of hinduism or something similar to it?

That doesn't prove anything. Just because it says it was written by Mohammad doesn't mean it was.

it wasn't written by Muhamed (saws), it was said by him.

Thanks for asking.

Since I haven't finished reading it, and won't for a while (I've got a rather large reading list meantime), I still am on the fence about whether or not it is God-breathed, and if it is, what it means.

You can post some verses that you may believe back up the hadith, it won't necessarily be support. They have to be relevant.

ok here is the verse in support for the hadith:

30:30 AND SO, set thy face steadfastly towards the [one ever-true] faith, turning away from all that is false, in accordance with the natural disposition which God has instilled into man: [for,] not to allow any change to corrupt what God has thus created this is the [purpose of the one] ever-true faith; but most people know it not.

what do you mean by "I still am on the fence about whether or not it is God-breathed, and if it is, what it means."?

In Junior High and High School, we were taught about the Islam religion in History class, and the teachers attempted to be unbiased and educational about it, not painting Islam as a religion of war and terrorism. (None of my teachers taught that, luckily.)

islam isn't a religion of war and terrorism.

If I were born Muslim, and if Islam were imprinted in my DNA, then why did I not feel an attraction to the religion?

because you were agnostic "And my parents taught me nothing."
so how could you feel an attraction when you were never told that you are a muslim or that god exists?

Disney's Aladdin is one of their best. You should see it as soon as you can.

i think i'll get a copy for my neice.

Isn't the name Allah independent of Arabic if it is the True Name of God?

not necesaraly, the quran was revealed in arabic, the prophet was an arab speaker so Allah sent his name in their language. you don't have to call him Allah if you don't want to. just look up the english definition (which may be long) and use that.
the word Allah has no meaning in another language appart from arabic.
so if you do not know the meaning you do not know what is meant by it.

here are some deffinitions as to what the name Allah means:

The Islamic name for God in the Arabic language. Used in preference to the word God, this Arabic term is singular, has no plural, nor is associated with masculine, feminine or neuter characteristics.

Muslims’ God. They believe in one God that has no sons or partners.

 

[YmirGF]

There is no way to prove or disprove this statement, only to either believe or reject it.

And that is why it has always been, is now and forever will be, a very shallow claim.