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The War on Christmas comes to Ohio

Sunstone

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Sonofason said:
Then perhaps you can try to explain yourself, this time being more clear.
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It seems to me that Christianity has more or less consistently had a problem with creating an idol out of its own religion, or at least, of the symbols thereof. An idol, of course, being anything that one worships in lieu of a deity. To me, the notion that a zombie nativity scene could possibly be "the equivalent of pissing on Christians everywhere" is at the very least subtle borderline idolatry. But of course that's my opinion. and I could be wrong -- even though I doubt it.
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
9-10ths_Penguin said:
It wasn't its zombieness that made it illegal; it was its dimensions and distance from the house and property line. A similar non-zombie nativity would have been just as illegal.
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Of course, there is the law as written (de jure) & the law as practiced (de facto). I've seen how law is applied differently, depending upon the code officials' personal agendas & peccadilloes. Would the nativity scene be legally tolerated if it were conventional? That's the real issue.
 
Draka

Draka

Wonder Woman
Sonofason said:
I disagree. It's not fine, and apparently displaying a zombie nativity scene is not only offensive to Christians, but also illegal.
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It is perfectly fine to celebrate or regard Christmas in any way a person wants to. Especially in the US as they made it a national holiday. You say something is a national holiday, give most people that day off, you just gave them a secular holiday to celebrate any dang way they see fit. And people will and do. You want Christmas just about "Christ" and just for Christians? Lobby for stripping its national holiday status and let it go back to any other religious celebration and make Christians ask for it off the way people of other religions have to do for their religious holidays. If you're not willing to do that then, since it is a secular holiday, it will be celebrated as the commercialized, shopping heavy, family big meal holiday it has been for years. Jesus or no Jesus.
 
Draka

Draka

Wonder Woman
Revoltingest said:
Of course, there is the law as written (de jure) & the law as practiced (de facto). I've seen how law is applied differently, depending upon the code officials' personal agendas & peccadilloes. Would the nativity scene be legally tolerated if it were conventional? That's the real issue.
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I think so. The owner, I believe, made a valid point. That there wouldn't be an issue if it was a "pretty" nativity scene. In fact, I think, it would be a draw. People wouldn't complain, they would drive from all over the neighborhood or town just to see the grand pretty nativity. The fact that it has zombies is the most likely reason that someone complained and the "codes" came into play. If it was within codes I would still have to wonder if there would be something else that would be used to try to make him take it down.
 
Sonofason

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
9-10ths_Penguin said:
It wasn't its zombieness that made it illegal; it was its dimensions and distance from the house and property line. A similar non-zombie nativity would have been just as illegal.

As for having a Christless Christmas: IMO, if the Christians can co-opt Yule from the Pagans, I can co-opt Christmas from the Christians. When a religious observance is imposed on people who don't believe in the religion, then they get a say in it, too.

I'm not going to impose on the Christmas that you celebrate in your church, but the Christmas that is celebrated in larger society belongs to everyone in that society, and I have just as much say in it as you do.
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Honestly, you're right. I personally disagree with such a display, and I believe that the motives are questionable for such a display. If it is as you say, that it was the size and distance from the property line that was in question, then I would agree that all nativity scenes, zombies included, should be permitted under the limitations required under the law.
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Revoltingest said:
Of course, there is the law as written (de jure) & the law as practiced (de facto). I've seen how law is applied differently, depending upon the code officials' personal agendas & peccadilloes. Would the nativity scene be legally tolerated if it were conventional? That's the real issue.
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I agree. We need to give the people who enforce the law the latitude to choose when to enforce it just in order for it to be workable, but this can lend itself to abuse.
Sonofason said:
Honestly, you're right. I personally disagree with such a display, and I believe that the motives are questionable for such a display.
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Similarly, I think that the motives for many traditional nativity scenes are questionable.
 
Sonofason

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
Sunstone said:
It seems to me that Christianity has more or less consistently had a problem with creating an idol out of its own religion, or at least, of the symbols thereof. An idol, of course, being anything that one worships in lieu of a deity. To me, the notion that a zombie nativity scene could possibly be "the equivalent of pissing on Christians everywhere" is at the very least subtle borderline idolatry. But of course that's my opinion. and I could be wrong -- even though I doubt it.
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Actually, I think you're making a good point. If indeed it is true, as I have suggested, that displaying a zombie nativity scene on Christmas is so offensive so as to be equivalent to pissing on all Christians, I suppose, in a sense, that would be acknowledging that nativity scenes are so dear to Christians that they have become idols.

It is likely true that holding something, such as a nativity scene, so dear is indeed idolatry for the Christian. And that is wrong for a Christian to do. But what I am suggesting is there is a problem with the motives of the person displaying the zombie nativity scene, as he is failing to show respect for a symbol of something that is so dear to many people. It is not the zombie nativity scene I question, but the disrespectful motives of the person putting on the display.

In my opinion it is like burning the American flag in front of the houses of American veterans.
 
C

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Hell must have frozen over, talk about climate change! But I am agreeing with sonofason.
I think it ugly and mean spirited, and don't care if the officials have to dig around for a code violation.

If he'd done this in his basement as a private joke it would be different. But big and outdoors is just being antisocial for the sake of making people unhappy.

Tom
 
Sonofason

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
9-10ths_Penguin said:
I agree. We need to give the people who enforce the law the latitude to choose when to enforce it just in order for it to be workable, but this can lend itself to abuse.

Similarly, I think that the motives for many traditional nativity scenes are questionable.
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Indeed, sometimes they are. It should be the motives that are in question.
 
Sonofason

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
It's rather difficult to determine if a persons actions are right or wrong. It all comes down to motive. But motives are nearly impossible to read, as they are often locked away in the minds of the persons doing the actions. So we of course need to make laws to govern the actions of people in order to reduce the physical and mental harm that can be done by those who might have such motives.
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Sonofason said:
It's rather difficult to determine if a persons actions are right or wrong. It all comes down to motive. But motives are nearly impossible to read, as they are often locked away in the minds of the persons doing the actions.
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... except when the action involves zombies, apparently.

So we of course need to make laws to govern the actions of people in order to reduce the physical and mental harm that can be done by those who might have such motives.
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Be careful what you wish for. The harm perpetrated by Christianity is incalculably more than the harm, if any, caused by a zombie nativity.
 
Sonofason

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
9-10ths_Penguin said:
... except when the action involves zombies, apparently.


Be careful what you wish for. The harm perpetrated by Christianity is incalculably more than the harm, if any, caused by a zombie nativity.
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That may be true, and there are laws in place to govern the actions of Christians as well. The laws we form apply to everyone.
 
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