The wedding of jesus

[Oberon]

You can repeat that until you're blue in the face...

Good point. I think it is probably time to give up. I already stopped responding to Ben, but I might as well stop saying the same things over and over and over...

 

[Ben Masada]

Interesting sites, and you right Jesus was so different than other Rabbi, He sought for disciples, the Pharisees and Sadducees were sought by those wanting to learn, they would not dare to share a meal or enter the house of non Jewish, so where all this leaves us?
Or perhaps Jesus is the founder of the Nazarenes movement ant it first Rabbi, a revolutionary teacher, the Messiah the word tabernacled on earth Isa 42:1 Behold My Servant, whom I uphold; My Elect, in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit on Him; He shall bring out judgment to the nations.
Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged until He has set judgment in the earth; and the coasts shall wait for His Law.

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The fact that Jesus sought disciples was in according to the custom of his time. He was not the only Rabbi to gather around him a group of twelve. There were many.

Now, to charge the Pharisees of segregating themselves from non-Jews is very unfair, because Jesus himself used to do the same. He had an aversion to Gentilesl,
especially Samarithans. He went even further by considering Gentiles as dogs and
swine. Moreover, he would advise his disciples not to bring his gospel to the Gentiles and never to enter a Samaritan town. (Mat. 7:6; 10:6; 15:26,27)

Ben:no:

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Ben,

I loved your post. I'm not 100% convinced that Jesus was married, but I believe there is a reasonably good possibility that he was. I never cease to be amazed at how many Christians find that thought so appalling. You provided some pretty interesting evidence to support your thesis and I, for one, was impressed. I don't agree with everything you said. In fact, I strongly disagree with your belief that Jesus didn't die on the cross at all. But the idea that Jesus was married is entirely logical to me. Not to mention beautiful.

Katzpur

I know I'm coming in so late here....but I think there is more evidence in those gospels to suggest he didn't die on the cross than him being married......but I think both are equally possible...

 

[Dirty Penguin]

But........

I tend to think that this was not Yeshua's wedding because of John 2:9......It would appear the person (Master of Ceremony) tasted the wine and although he didn't know where it came from the servants did...but then the MC called the bridegroom over. If this was Yeshua's wedding he would have been the one to be called ove seeing as though he was the one who supposedly turned the water in to wine.....

But since we weren't there...the MC could have been motioning for Yeshua who could have been the bridegroom...So verses 7, 8, 9 and 10 could make sense if Yeshua is the bridegroom.

John 2:7-10
7 Jesus told the servants, "Fill the jars with water." When the jars had been filled to the brim,

8 he said, "Dip some out and take it to the master of ceremonies." So they followed his instructions.

9 When the master of ceremonies tasted the water that was now wine, not knowing where it had come from (though, of course, the servants knew), he called the bridegroom over.

10 "Usually a host serves the best wine first," he said. "Then, when everyone is full and doesn't care, he brings out the less expensive wines. But you have kept the best until now!"


Here we see the only ones who knew where the wine came from were the servants who were instructed by Yeshua to take some to the MC.....after the MC tasted it he called over the bridgegroom. Either Yeshua was the bridegroom whom the MC did call over or the bridegroom (some one other than Yeshua) took credit for something he didn't provide. It is, however, odd that Mary and Yeshua...who were supposedly guest would be in the position of giving orders at some one elses wedding.

 

[Heneni]

But........

I tend to think that this was not Yeshua's wedding because of John 2:9......It would appear the person (Master of Ceremony) tasted the wine and although he didn't know where it came from the servants did...but then the MC called the bridegroom over. If this was Yeshua's wedding he would have been the one to be called ove seeing as though he was the one who supposedly turned the water in to wine.....

Just a thought.....

Could be that the bridgegroom was jesus. The servants were the disciples. The story seems to deliberately hide the identity of them both.

 

[emiliano]

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The fact that Jesus sought disciples was in according to the custom of his time. He was not the only Rabbi to gather around him a group of twelve. There were many.

Now, to charge the Pharisees of segregating themselves from non-Jews is very unfair, because Jesus himself used to do the same. He had an aversion to Gentilesl,
especially Samarithans. He went even further by considering Gentiles as dogs and
swine. Moreover, he would advise his disciples not to bring his gospel to the Gentiles and never to enter a Samaritan town. (Mat. 7:6; 10:6; 15:26,27)

Ben:no:

Are you sure of this? “The fact that Jesus sought disciples was in according to the custom of his time” I don’t know enough to say, but in discussion with converted Jews (Jesus for Jesus) I was told that the custom was that the prospective disciple would seek a Rabbi , another Reformed Jew suggested to me that I attend Jewish services and see for myself how beautiful they are, he told me that I have to approach the Rabbi and tell him that I was interested in attending but warn me that I could be rejected and need to approach him a few times before he would allow me to do that. I did not do it, their Temple is too far away and I was not really interested.
Where do you get that Jesus considered gentiles swine from? “Do not give that which is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet and turn again and tear you.” But at that time Jesus and His disciple were persecuted by the Jews not the gentiles, so if anything this could be referring to the Pharisees or the Scribes. After all this comes right after “Hypocrite! First cast the beam out of your own eye, and then you shall see clearly to cast the splinter out of your brother's eye” Charges that the Lord often made against them”. “But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” offcourse it had to be that way, Jesus came to cleanse them so as to make them worthy of their calling “ to be the holy priesthood that they were chosen to be”
Then Jesus answered and said to her, O woman, great is your faith! So be it to you even as you wish. And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Faith was more important than ethic background to Jesus.
There are instances in which the Lord had loving dealings with Samaritans, the woman at the well ( John Chapter 4) and the story of the man assaulted on the road in Luk10:30 ……..
And His disciples Act 8:25 Then, indeed, having earnestly testified and having spoken the Word of the Lord also having preached the gospel to many villages of the Samaritans, they returned to Jerusalem. I don’t know but it seems to me that you are wrong.:slap:

 

[Ben Masada]

Are you sure of this? “The fact that Jesus sought disciples was in according to the custom of his time” I don’t know enough to say, but in discussion with converted Jews (Jesus for Jesus) I was told that the custom was that the prospective disciple would seek a Rabbi , another Reformed Jew suggested to me that I attend Jewish services and see for myself how beautiful they are, he told me that I have to approach the Rabbi and tell him that I was interested in attending but warn me that I could be rejected and need to approach him a few times before he would allow me to do that. I did not do it, their Temple is too far away and I was not really interested.
Where do you get that Jesus considered gentiles swine from? “Do not give that which is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet and turn again and tear you.” But at that time Jesus and His disciple were persecuted by the Jews not the gentiles, so if anything this could be referring to the Pharisees or the Scribes. After all this comes right after “Hypocrite! First cast the beam out of your own eye, and then you shall see clearly to cast the splinter out of your brother's eye” Charges that the Lord often made against them”. “But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” offcourse it had to be that way, Jesus came to cleanse them so as to make them worthy of their calling “ to be the holy priesthood that they were chosen to be”
Then Jesus answered and said to her, O woman, great is your faith! So be it to you even as you wish. And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Faith was more important than ethic background to Jesus.
There are instances in which the Lord had loving dealings with Samaritans, the woman at the well ( John Chapter 4) and the story of the man assaulted on the road in Luk10:30 ……..
And His disciples Act 8:25 Then, indeed, having earnestly testified and having spoken the Word of the Lord also having preached the gospel to many villages of the Samaritans, they returned to Jerusalem. I don’t know but it seems to me that you are wrong.:slap:

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Hi Emiliano

Yes sir, I am quite sure of what I said. Jews were very active in the work to get converts until about 350 CE when Christianity was made the official religion of the Roman Empire by Emperor Constantine. The first act of the Church was to condemn to death any Jew involved in the conversion of other people. Even after Jesus' death, when his Apostles founded the Sect of the Nazarenes they elected Peter for the function to convert the Gentiles while the other Apostles would work with the Jews. That's in Acts 15:7.

What your friend "Jew-for-Jesus" told you is true but only after the fourth Century CE when the Rabbis forbade Jews to seek conversions. From then on yes, the prospect would have to seek a Rabbi if he or she was interested in conversion to Judaism. And yes, the Rabbi was expected to dissuade the prospect from his or her intent. And that policy has lasted to this day. But at the time of Jesus it was not so.
Jesus and many other Rabbis would seek their disciples till twelve and hold a class
for Torah studies. In fact, Disciples could be by the hundreds, but the twelve were the officers of the group. There were many such groups. What the Reform Rabbi told you is also true. It's not with easy that one is accepted as a convert to Judaism.

Now, about Jesus' aversion to Gentiles, listen to this. In his Sermon of the Mount to
a crowd of Jews, he said: "Do not give what is holy to dogs or toss your pearls before swine." If Jesus was speaking to the Jews, whom was he speaking about as dogs and swine? Obviously, Gentiles. One does not have to be too smart to figure. That's in Matthew 7:6.

Now, with regard to the Gentile Canaanite woman, she was of some time following Jesus and crying asking him to cure her daughter. Some of the disciples called his attention and said something like, If you don't want to do what she is asking send her away, she keeps crying and shouting after us. Jesus answered and said something like I didn't come for them but only for Israel. But then, perhaps with the intention to get rid of her, he explained to her that it was not meet to take from the bread of the children (he meant the Jews) and throw it unto the dogs, which he meant Gentiles. But when the woman recognizing her condition of dog, said that she would be satisfied with the crumbles fallen from the table of the children, he understood how determined she was and cured her daughter. The fact is that he never explained to her that he was persuaded by her faith, or to his disciples that he was just testing the faith of the woman. Therefore, anyone is allowed to speculate that he cured the woman's daughter because she recognized her doggish condition. I know it's not fair, but I feel released that the only Jew ever to consider Gentiles as dogs was Jesus and no one else. I mean, no other Jew.

Now, with regards to his gospel or the Good News about the Kingdom of God, every
time he sent his disciples on a mission, he would forbid them to go into the way of the Gentiles or even to enter a Samarithan town. That's in Matthew 10:5. And for the Good Samarithan on the Road to Damascus, it was a parable, and I doubt it originated with Jesus. It could very well have been an interpolation by the writer of the Gospel. And regarding that dialogue with the Samarithan woman, I equally suspect of its veracity. According to the Sonoma Semirary in Germany of a few years ago by Protestant Theologians to certify what really Jesus said or happened to him, they came up with only 20 percent. Being 80 percent interpolations by the writers of the Gospels in order to match them with the teachings of Paul.

Ben

 

[Ben Masada]

Could be that the bridgegroom was jesus. The servants were the disciples. The story seems to deliberately hide the identity of them both.

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That the story seems to hide the identity of the disciples yes, it did occur to me, but not that of Jesus. The disciples were among the guests who were equally surprised that the bridegroom had reserved the best wine for the end. Now, why would his mother go to remind Jesus that they were running out of wine and not to the bridegroom if he was not Jesus? Have you ever thought of that? I myself got married in Israel, and according to the custom, which the parents of the bride did not let me forget, as the bridegroom, it was upon me to provide the wine for the feast, which I did. Jesus' mother went to Jesus because he was the one in charge of the wine for one reason only: Because he was the bridegroom.

Ben:bow:

 

[Ben Masada]

I know I'm coming in so late here....but I think there is more evidence in those gospels to suggest he didn't die on the cross than him being married......but I think both are equally possible...

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Hi Penguin,

Your words make me feel after being anointed with the balm of Geilead. I have been
beaten like a punch-bag because of this post. Now, after what you have said it makes me invigorated to stay over and continue posting.
Thanks Pal; I needed that.

Ben:clap

 

[emiliano]

Hi Ben Masada
There are several points in which we disagree and I am trying to make my response short, so here we go again, you say: Now, about Jesus' aversion to Gentiles, listen to this. In his Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews, he said: "Do not give what is holy to dogs or toss your pearls before swine." If Jesus was speaking to the Jews, whom was he speaking about as dogs and swine? Obviously, Gentiles. One does not have to be too smart to figure. That's in Matthew 7:6.
OK let hear it and try to assess to whom is this addressed to: Mat 7:5 Hypocrite! First cast the beam out of your own eye, and then you shall see clearly to cast the splinter out of your brother's eye.
Who were the judges of the faith’s practices. The scribes right? They told the Jews what’s what in religious practices, Jesus disciples did not followed them (this is narrated in the Gospel) also it is stated that the scribes and the Pharisees followed Jesus and His disciple to their gatherings and question them about the washing of hand, the Sabbath and all the practices that they (the scribes) interpreted from the ancient Hebrew language that at that time was not spoken or written by many of the Israelites, so it is a save bet that Jesus addressed this remarks to them. Pro 11:9 A hypocrite corrupts his neighbor with his mouth; but through knowledge the just shall be delivered.
The lord knew about these judges Luk 13:15 And the Lord answered him and said, Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the sabbath loosen his ox or *** from the stall and lead it away, to give it drink?
Isa 9:17 For this the Lord shall not rejoice over their young men, nor shall He have mercy on their orphans and widows; for everyone is a hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaks foolishness. In all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.
And the master proceeded to give out knowledge from God,
Luk 6:42 Or how can you say to your brother, Brother, let me pull out the splinter in your eye, when you yourself do not see the beam that is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First cast out the beam out of your own eye, and then you shall see clearly to pull out the

Now, with regards to his gospel or the Good News about the Kingdom of God, every
time he sent his disciples on a mission, he would forbid them to go into the way of the Gentiles or even to enter a Samarithan town

Every time? Where did you get that one from? The truth is that Jesus Himself preached to the gentiles and performed a liberation of the demon possessed in the country of the Gergesenes (non Jews, thus gentiles)

 

[Heneni]

The problem is...that one jew and another jew can not agree on their own customs.

It was custom back then to....says the one jew
It wasnt custom back then says the other jew...


Hmmm......:run:

 

[Ben Masada]

The problem is...that one jew and another jew can not agree on their own customs.

It was custom back then to....says the one jew
It wasnt custom back then says the other jew...


Hmmm......:run:

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Oh, I know! Two Jewish heads, three opinions. I am willing to compromise even
if it affects a little my position on the matter because, if there is someone I hate
to argue with, it's another Jew, especially in such a public place. How can you document your opinion at least a little?

Ben :bow:

 

[Ben Masada]

Hi Ben Masada
There are several points in which we disagree and I am trying to make my response short, so here we go again, you say: Now, about Jesus' aversion to Gentiles, listen to this. In his Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews, he said: "Do not give what is holy to dogs or toss your pearls before swine." If Jesus was speaking to the Jews, whom was he speaking about as dogs and swine? Obviously, Gentiles. One does not have to be too smart to figure. That's in Matthew 7:6.
OK let hear it and try to assess to whom is this addressed to: Mat 7:5 Hypocrite! First cast the beam out of your own eye, and then you shall see clearly to cast the splinter out of your brother's eye.
Who were the judges of the faith’s practices. The scribes right? They told the Jews what’s what in religious practices, Jesus disciples did not followed them (this is narrated in the Gospel) also it is stated that the scribes and the Pharisees followed Jesus and His disciple to their gatherings and question them about the washing of hand, the Sabbath and all the practices that they (the scribes) interpreted from the ancient Hebrew language that at that time was not spoken or written by many of the Israelites, so it is a save bet that Jesus addressed this remarks to them. Pro 11:9 A hypocrite corrupts his neighbor with his mouth; but through knowledge the just shall be delivered.
The lord knew about these judges Luk 13:15 And the Lord answered him and said, Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the sabbath loosen his ox or *** from the stall and lead it away, to give it drink?
Isa 9:17 For this the Lord shall not rejoice over their young men, nor shall He have mercy on their orphans and widows; for everyone is a hypocrite and an evildoer, and every mouth speaks foolishness. In all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.
And the master proceeded to give out knowledge from God,
Luk 6:42 Or how can you say to your brother, Brother, let me pull out the splinter in your eye, when you yourself do not see the beam that is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First cast out the beam out of your own eye, and then you shall see clearly to pull out the

Every time? Where did you get that one from? The truth is that Jesus Himself preached to the gentiles and performed a liberation of the demon possessed in the country of the Gergesenes (non Jews, thus gentiles)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Have you ever heard about the Sonoma Seminary of German Theologians that got together a few years ago to determine what was genuine or not as coming from the mouth of Jesus and what constituted interpolations by the writers of the NT? The final decision is that they could not find more than 20 percent as genuinely said by Jesus or that really happened to him. Believe it not, that's exactly what came out from my researches in the NT: That 80 percent of the content are interpolations.

Now, considering the life-lasting contension between Paul and the Pharisees and Scribes, who fought hard to prevent Paul from planting a church in Israeli soil, anything hostile between Jesus and the Jewish leaders of his time, I can't accept as true, but simple interpolations by the writers of the NT in vengeance for what they did to Paul.

Therefore, I subscribe myself to the trend that those belicose encounters between Jesus and the Jewish leaders, had nothing to do with Jesus but with Paul. Due to this position of mine, I am sorry to end our debate, since you have been pushed into a no-win position. Why? Because in the NT I accept as legitimate only 20 percent of
what Jesus said or happened to him.

Without any other ado,

Ben :run:

 

[Dirty Penguin]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hi Penguin,

Your words make me feel after being anointed with the balm of Geilead. I have been
beaten like a punch-bag because of this post. Now, after what you have said it makes me invigorated to stay over and continue posting.
Thanks Pal; I needed that.

Ben:clap

You're welcome....

 

[Beneck]

"Do not give what is holy to dogs or toss your pearls before swine."

Those dogs ans swine were not only the gentiles. Just everyone who does not receive the Word of God. Jesus wasn't preaching a whole lot to other people than Jews there. Ok, a few Samaritans etc, but in general to the Jews. He wasn't saying that the Jews are those dogs and swine. He just said not to waste your time and effort on trying to win people who don't want to.

 

[Heneni]

"Do not give what is holy to dogs or toss your pearls before swine."

Those dogs ans swine were not only the gentiles. Just everyone who does not receive the Word of God. Jesus wasn't preaching a whole lot to other people than Jews there. Ok, a few Samaritans etc, but in general to the Jews. He wasn't saying that the Jews are those dogs and swine. He just said not to waste your time and effort on trying to win people who don't want to.

Seems like jesus wasted his time on the 'dog' women then because he said that she had faith and gave her what she wanted.

 

[Ben Masada]

Seems like jesus wasted his time on the 'dog' women then because he said that she had faith and gave her what she wanted.

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Jesus gave in to the crying of the Canaanite woman not because of her faith but because of her humbleness and resignation to get satisfied even with the crumbles
from the table of the children.

Then again, it could happen that the whole thing was not true but an interpolation by the writer of the first gospel, who made that up in order to discredit the Jews for their resistence to the gospel of Paul. Everything is possible when someone keeps the grudge against another.:sarcastic

Ben

 

[Dirty Penguin]

So have we officially moved on from the main topic to other areas....?

 

[emiliano]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Have you ever heard about the Sonoma Seminary of German Theologians that got together a few years ago to determine what was genuine or not as coming from the mouth of Jesus and what constituted interpolations by the writers of the NT? The final decision is that they could not find more than 20 percent as genuinely said by Jesus or that really happened to him. Believe it not, that's exactly what came out from my researches in the NT: That 80 percent of the content are interpolations.
Now, considering the life-lasting contension between Paul and the Pharisees and Scribes, who fought hard to prevent Paul from planting a church in Israeli soil, anything hostile between Jesus and the Jewish leaders of his time, I can't accept as true, but simple interpolations by the writers of the NT in vengeance for what they did to Paul.
Therefore, I subscribe myself to the trend that those belicose encounters between Jesus and the Jewish leaders, had nothing to do with Jesus but with Paul. Due to this position of mine, I am sorry to end our debate, since you have been pushed into a no-win position. Why? Because in the NT I accept as legitimate only 20 percent of
what Jesus said or happened to him.

Without any other ado,

Ben :run:

Ah! a meeting of German theologian, no I have not heard of it, but I can google it, I heard that the Holocaust never took place from the president of Iran. I don’t care very much for German theologians or Iranian presidents. The German Theologians had similar meetings once, and came up with “The Jews murdered Jesus” and the Nazis ran with the idea, beware of meetings of German Theologians meetings. :sarcastic

 

[Ben Masada]

Ah! a meeting of German theologian, no I have not heard of it, but I can google it, I heard that the Holocaust never took place from the president of Iran. I don’t care very much for German theologians or Iranian presidents. The German Theologians had similar meetings once, and came up with “The Jews murdered Jesus” and the Nazis ran with the idea, beware of meetings of German Theologians meetings. :sarcastic

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I mentioned of the Jesus Seminar just for the coincidence that their finds coincide
with my own researches in the NT, where in fact, after reading over 35 times, I could never find more than 20 percent of the words of Jesus as being genuinely of his own. And mind you that the method has a lot of credibility in the sense of decreasing the number of contradictions.

The German Theologians did not have to meet to figure that "The Jews murdered Jesus." They had only to open the NT and have it in a silver platter. The accusations are there only too clear. That's exactly where Hitler got his inspiration from for the
"Final Solution." It was also from the same source that Christianity got the tools to issue its Crusades whose Christian sword shed the blood of thousands of Jews. Likewise the Christian Inquisition whose "Autos-da-Fe" burned thousands of Jewish bodies in the public squares of Europe.

Ben :shout