The witchhunt continues...

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Late response here, and perhaps this is a topic for a different thread but...

I don't think there is any such thing as "LGBTQ+ culture".

Can you clarify what you mean?

That's a difficult challenge -- but (I think) a fair question.

People who are marginalized do, I think you will agree, tend to gather together more or less for protection. Think of all the "chinatowns" in cities everywhere, or the "gay ghettos" (in my city, the gay ghetto was centered on an area called "Church-Wellesley Village"). Immigrants tend to cluster together -- so they can feel comfortable speaking their own language around others, or just to feel like they're "at home." Again, in my town, we have our "Little Italy," "Little Portugal," "Greektown," and so on.

Then, when the marginalization begins to break down, more and more people leave these enclaves and become more mainstream. In Canada, for example, being LGBTQ has been so accepted for long enough that the gay village is more and more inhabited by younger straight folks, while the gays -- like me -- have moved on. I personally haven't been in a gay bar or club for a couple of decades -- and yet though most of the people I socialize with now are straight, some of them (those like me) are still gay.

This, in my view, is a good thing. I don't want there to be segregated people based on some characteristic or other. I don't want a queer culture -- I would just like a society in which John and Anne can get married, and so can Fred and George, or Maggie and Elizabeth, and nobody would think anything of it.

But here's what's happening -- the primarily Christian right in the U.S. (and just beginning again elsewhere) is trying to push us back into our ghettos, our closets. It's not that we don't like them, or don't want to be part of their world -- it's that they don't like us, and don't want us anywhere near their world. Same thing with everybody else: if you see your neighbours as the "black couple next door" rather than just "the neighbours," then you are on the way to marginalizing them. When you see the two women in the house across the way as, "the local lesbians" rather than "members of our community," you're on the way to driving them away.

Keep that up, and what would I do but return to a community in which I felt safe? And what would drive me there? Nothing more than the prejudices of those who don't want me to be part of their world.

 

[icehorse]

That's a difficult challenge -- but (I think) a fair question.

Thanks for that answer. I largely agree with what you said.

But I'm not sure "culture" is a good word in the context you just provided?

I also have a bit of anecdotal evidence that a lot of LBGs really don't want to be lumped into the rest. Have you heard that?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Late response here, and perhaps this is a topic for a different thread but...

I don't think there is any such thing as "LGBTQ+ culture".

Can you clarify what you mean?

Such, we tend to like rainbows. Even me, though mine is Rainbow in the Dark.

 

[SomeRandom]

I'm all for accommodations. But this seems different, because I'm claiming it's a safety issue. In general I would say we don't provide accommodations that negatively impact safety, correct?

I don’t see how it impacts safety negatively.
You know there are already unisex bathrooms in the world? I think there’s even a few near where I live!
It doesn’t seem to have much of an impact either way. Of course that could be a hard thing to really measure due to all sorts of various factors.
I’m just saying, you don’t hear about rapists chomping at the bit to take advantage of such an implementation, do you?
I’m all for being cynical about humans. But I think this is jumping at shadows.

I don't think this issue is symmetrical, i.e., comparing trans men to trans women. I think it's far less concerning for a trans man to use the men's room than it is for a trans woman to use the women's restroom. Again, there are the typical differences in size and strength to consider. In your case, I'd be more worried about the trans man then the other men, correct?

I won’t pretend to be an expert on all the effects of the transition process. But I’m fairly certain those things are largely affected by hormones in the body. When someone transitions, hormones are used to I guess design (for lack of a better word) a new body. One more fitting for the person’s identity.
So with gender affirming care, especially starting a lot earlier these days, I think such differences would be negated. Maybe not fully but you know even ignoring that aspect, women and men come in all shapes and sizes now.
Plenty of cis women could probably kick the asses of other cis women and maybe even trans women. I mean have you seen the ladies who routinely work out? I pity the jerk who tries to attack them!
I’ve known plenty of ladies who could probably take on a man in a fight. Not a single one of them trans (that I know of. I’ve never been rude enough to ask.)
If this is genuinely about safety concerns, let’s really look at it from every possible angle. That’s logical, right?
If a trans man is using the men’s facilities, are they in danger due to the differences in size and strength that may be apparent?
Indeed causing the hysteria may even leave such individuals vulnerable to attack for being perceived as “not a real man” even if they’re cis!
I’m sorry I’m just seeing far more opportunities for people, cis and trans, being attacked over raising these concerns to the prominence they have been as of late. We even have reports from cis women being harassed as a direct result of such a process. Like I said before. This seems to hurt more than help

This is complicated isn't it? But that's NOT what I'm proposing.

Of all the various possible combinations, the one I'm focusing on is this: The normalization of people who look like men, using women's restrooms.

I think the other possibilities might need some attention as well, but I'm focusing only on this situation.

But by hyperfocusing on a specific aspect of an issue we run the risk of becoming blind to aspects that have a real life affect on people. As I’ve previously pointed out, there are all sorts of aspects to take into consideration. And if we don’t, we can run the risk of creating more problems. A complicated issue should be dealt with thoroughly and intricately. Would you not agree? There is always nuance and nuance can have heavy affects if we ignore them.

If we temporarily remove trans people from the equation, I would agree that some violent men will not be deterred. To me that's an unfortunate reality that I'm not addressing in this thread.

But for other violent men, assault / rape IS a crime of opportunity. And the number of opportunities will increase if it becomes normal to see people who look like men entering women's restrooms.

As things stand now, if a man-looking person heads towards a women's restroom, they stick out like a sore thumb. Of course this is not perfect protection, but it IS a deterrent to some degree. If we lose the "sore thumb" aspect, we've weakened the deterrent.

I mean that is true, I guess. Again not really an expert on the criminal mind.

However, if we impose this only using the “biologically correct” restrooms rule, you would by default get a male looking person having to use the women’s facilities. (Trans men who may be pre surgery. Or even post) Trans men were born as women, after all. So this rule would force them to use the women’s by default.

Like this is an aspect that needs to be addressed as it would be a direct result of such an imposition of said rule that you are voting in favour of. But would this not be doing the exact thing that you wish to prevent? Normalising male looking folks from using the women’s
Like it or not, that is a direct consequence of this rule. So do you think a trans man should be using the men’s?

 

[Viker]

Late response here, and perhaps this is a topic for a different thread but...

I don't think there is any such thing as "LGBTQ+ culture".

Can you clarify what you mean?

LGBT culture - Wikipedia

LGBTQ Culture and Life in the U.S.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

So much transphobia pretending to be concerned citizens here.

 

[YmirGF]

LGBT culture - Wikipedia

LGBTQ Culture and Life in the U.S.

There is indeed a "gay" and a "lesbian" community, but there simply is no real "community" beyond the marketing brochures. Heck, traditionally, gays and lesbians aren't exactly best chums. Likewise, gays view bisexuals with a bit of "oh, make up your mind" suspicion. Finally, the trans movement did likey grow out of what was perhaps misdiagnosed as gay prior to todays brilliant understanding of this phenomena but that is where any connection ends. Gay men want other gay men, not transgender women or trangender men. Ditto for lesbians in that they want other lesbian females. This prefernece is baked into the sexuality. And everything after the T just flush down the drain, it's drivel. Oh, and while I am at it. I find it deeply insensitive of the folks who thought it great to take back the word "queer". Having that hurled at me when I was growing up really makes me wonder what kind of crack people are on these days.

The so-called LGBTwhatever community does not represent this gay man and they have ruined my love for rainbows.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Thanks for that answer. I largely agree with what you said.

But I'm not sure "culture" is a good word in the context you just provided?

I also have a bit of anecdotal evidence that a lot of LBGs really don't want to be lumped into the rest. Have you heard that?

Culture is a word, and as it reflects, in this case, the fact that members share quite a bit in common, it'll do. I don't fuss over-much about nomenclature.

And let's face it, lots of different "cultures" (or clubs, or communes or what-have-you) have their sub-groups. There's the local church, for example, but the "church ladies" also like to get together on their own sometimes, without the men and children. Gay men and lesbians, when we're just socializing, may not mingle all that much, but come together for the bigger celebrations like Pride, and rights marches, etc. But that's all just normal human behaviour. Straight men like women, but they also like going off on their golf tours, hockey games and hunting trips with "the boys."

 

[YmirGF]

So much transphobia pretending to be concerned citizens here.

Serious question: Is the above a personal comment or a staff comment

Culture is a word, and as it reflects, in this case, the fact that members share quite a bit in common, it'll do. I don't fuss over-much about nomenclature.

And let's face it, lots of different "cultures" (or clubs, or communes or what-have-you) have their sub-groups. There's the local church, for example, but the "church ladies" also like to get together on their own sometimes, without the men and children. Gay men and lesbians, when we're just socializing, may not mingle all that much, but come together for the bigger celebrations like Pride, and rights marches, etc. But that's all just normal human behaviour. Straight men like women, but they also like going off on their golf tours, hockey games and hunting trips with "the boys."

It sounds like you are sort of agreeing with some of my points that this is a made up coalition, To my perspective it seems more like desperation that "they" want to give this illusion of togetherness where none genuinely exists beyond appearances. In the past, the LGBT coatlition worked because they had overlapping concerns and rights they were fighting for. Simply pushing everyone in the LGBT "community" down the Gender Ideology rabbit hole, which no one was asking for, is now splintering that fragile coalition because the LGB has no "skin in the game".

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Serious question: Is the above a personal comment or a staff comment

It sounds like you are sort of agreeing with some of my points that this is a made up coalition, To my perspective it seems more like desperation that "they" want to give this illusion of togetherness where none genuinely exists beyond appearances. In the past, the LGBT coatlition worked because they had overlapping concerns and rights they were fighting for. Simply pushing everyone in the LGBT "community" down the Gender Ideology rabbit hole, which no one was asking for, is now splintering that fragile coalition because the LGB has no "skin in the game".

Still, hostile parties have often fought together when separately they were badly outnumbered. Coalitions frequently arise out of mutual adversity. And as the threat now (or soon is likely to be) not only against trans, but drag and same-sex marriage themselves....

 

[icehorse]

However, if we impose this only using the “biologically correct” restrooms rule, you would by default get a male looking person having to use the women’s facilities. (Trans men who may be pre surgery. Or even post) Trans men were born as women, after all. So this rule would force them to use the women’s by default.

To be clear, I'm not advocating for a particular solution. I suspect the best answer is separate, individual "unisex" bathrooms, but I'm not sure.

What I'm first trying to do is establish that we have a problem. You say I'm jumping at shadows? This isn't an idea I cooked up out of thin air. This is an issue I've had women tell me they're having. So whenever anyone on this thread says anything along the lines of "not a problem", my ears are deaf to that response, because it IS a problem for some women.

If a trans man is using the men’s facilities, are they in danger due to the differences in size and strength that may be apparent?
Indeed causing the hysteria may even leave such individuals vulnerable to attack for being perceived as “not a real man” even if they’re cis!

I agree, this is yet another issue!

 

[icehorse]

So much transphobia pretending to be concerned citizens here.

Finally! Someone who can authoritatively speak for all women! Just in time, where have you been?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Plenty of cis women could probably kick the asses of other cis women and maybe even trans women. I mean have you seen the ladies who routinely work out? I pity the jerk who tries to attack them!
I’ve known plenty of ladies who could probably take on a man in a fight. Not a single one of them trans (that I know of. I’ve never been rude enough to ask.)
If this is genuinely about safety concerns, let’s really look at it from every possible angle. That’s logical, right?

I've seen some women at the gym who have a "carved from stone" physique. That means they can beat the **** out of most Americans, lmao.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Serious question: Is the above a personal comment or a staff comment

Unless I'm in the ask staff a question page or site feedback, all comments I make as staff will be in red bold lettering.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Simply pushing everyone in the LGBT "community" down the Gender Ideology rabbit hole, which no one was asking for, is now splintering that fragile coalition because the LGB has no "skin in the game".

It was the T that started the Stonewall Riots, and lots of gay bars dropped Bud Light after they distanced themselves from what's-her-name.

 

[SkepticThinker]

...

No... . That is exactly what they are requiring people to do, participate in a lie

How did you determine it's a "lie?"

 

[SkepticThinker]

I view it as demonically inspired.

You think an effort to study human variation is "demonically inspired?" How and why? What's a demon?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

...

How did you determine it's a "lie?"

I'm still waiting for someone to show evidence where I've, I don't know, held a gun up to people's heads or something before I began socially transitioning to demand people refer to me as female while presenting in a very male way (such a wearing a a trench coat and wallet chain to make a clanking noise as I walk). And all those threats I made when I was in denial of myself and would get angry if someone referred to me as female. Amd when I started going out as female? I don't know, maybe someone slipped me some Ambien and I threatened to poison the well water while I was alseep to make people refer to me as female. Surely that explains why I learned there's also that literal male gaze where a guy eyes a woman like a hungry carnivore looks at a piece of meat. Those guys were just scared and didn't want to see me follow through on my sleepwalking threats.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I can identify as a walrus, have a pet walrus, have multiple walrus figurines, toys and walrus stuffed animal....

I will never be a walrus however much I would like to identify as one.

It sound more like a traumatic experience that I haven't been able to cope with. I think we should be lovingly trying to help to find out what the root cause is and get some help.



With real heartfelt love.

Instead of addressing what was said, you made it silly instead. Hmmm

 

[SkepticThinker]

I'm not sure what your point is. Sincerely.

You were provided with examples of things you seem to think don't exist. Then when given examples, you say you don't understand what the point is.