The witchhunt continues...

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Medical studies have shown that the brain of trans people is often more like that of the opposite sex. Put a man's brain into a woman's body and he will still think that he is a man.

What he thinks is irrelevant. It is what is true that matters.

Do you think that a trans woman is the same as a non trans woman?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

I am playing a "what if" game in which at least one SCOTUS justice opened the door, in a climate in which there is a very strong and very serious war against LGBTQ+ culture going on. This is something that you consistently seem to want to ignore. I feel like I have to assume it is because your sympathies lie with the "against" side.

But never forget, in a war, antagonists will use every possible advantage that they can find. We (or most of us, possibly not you) are seeing that playing out right across the United States.

The war is not against LGBTQ+ people is against untrue language and protecting women and children. I am sure there are people that want to outlaw gay marriage. Talk to them, I and many others are not those people.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

So you would be a homosexual woman.

Ok, I would have no problem with that.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

And here, medical science seems to say that you are wrong. You do not choose the partners you want to have sex with based on your own anatomy (and you yourself just said) -- and you also do not choose how you identify based solely on your body parts, either.

You seem to be saying that your brain is "you" for some purposes, but not "you" for others. And that seems just silly, if you think about it.

No, I am saying a woman is an adult human female and a man is an adult human male regardless of what the person thinks they are.

Can you define the terms man and woman?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Because they use the term "female" and "male". They also do not preclude trans definitions. For example, a trans woman fits the definition of an adult human female.

How? Can they change their DNA?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Adult males who behave like boys and have the likes and interests of boys and groom themselves like sloppy boys. Ergo these are boys the age of a man.
Surely you are aware of the sayings "man up," "be a man" and other such sayings that instruct boys to grow up and act like a mature adult.

There are many men that are immature, that does not make them not men.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Yeah, he basically did say that when he said they need revisited and voiced his objections to those (Obergefell isn't the only one mentioned after he helped destroy a right held by women).

So he didn't say it. I am not for overturning any other rulings listed in the opinion. I agree with the majority opinion.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

All you did was mention forms of harassment. Rules and laws against harassment have existed in many forms for awhile now.

Then you did not understand my post. You have government organizations punishing people for not stating a lie. That is a problem.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Assuming you mean that they are claiming to have changed biologically, who's telling that lie? I haven't heard it. What I have heard is "I feel like a woman (or man) and wish to be addressed and otherwise treated like one." Is that a lie? Is accommodating that also lying for you?

What a person feels like does not make it true. I am ok with an adult deciding they want to live like the opposite gender. I don't really care. What I care about is other people being forced to agree or pretend they are the opposite gender.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

How? Can they change their DNA?

The definition you provided didn't say anything about DNA.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

The definition you provided didn't say anything about DNA.

An adult male has different chromosome types than and adult female. Is this not correct?

How do you define a man and a woman?

 

[icehorse]

Because I don’t think this is just a numbers game and even if it were. We do try our best to accomodate smaller numbered groups in society. Not everyone uses a wheelchair but buildings often have ramps to accomodate for this. Like a minority is still an active participant in society
We can’t just shrug and go, well, you just have to be inconvenienced because there’s not many others like you. Too bad too sad.
That’s seen as backwards and inhumane!

I'm all for accommodations. But this seems different, because I'm claiming it's a safety issue. In general I would say we don't provide accommodations that negatively impact safety, correct?

Plus passing trans men (they exist too) would scare the ever loving crap out of every other woman if they use the “biologically correct” restroom. In this case that would in fact be the women’s. I mean wouldn’t you do a double take if a trans man, with a full on beard, beer gut and other masculine features passes you by in the women’s restroom?
How does that help all women?

I don't think this issue is symmetrical, i.e., comparing trans men to trans women. I think it's far less concerning for a trans man to use the men's room than it is for a trans woman to use the women's restroom. Again, there are the typical differences in size and strength to consider. In your case, I'd be more worried about the trans man then the other men, correct?

Trans women who are known to go out of their way to specifically present outwardly as feminine, would be forced to use the men’s room.

This is complicated isn't it? But that's NOT what I'm proposing.

Of all the various possible combinations, the one I'm focusing on is this: The normalization of people who look like men, using women's restrooms.

I think the other possibilities might need some attention as well, but I'm focusing only on this situation.

Crimes are indeed often crimes of opportunity. But like I said, a criminal who is willing to flout the law by assaulting a woman isn’t going to be bothered whether or not trans people are allowed to use the facilities. Because why would they? Like honestly? Where’s the deterrent that supposedly exists for them now? Like talk me through it.

If we temporarily remove trans people from the equation, I would agree that some violent men will not be deterred. To me that's an unfortunate reality that I'm not addressing in this thread.

But for other violent men, assault / rape IS a crime of opportunity. And the number of opportunities will increase if it becomes normal to see people who look like men entering women's restrooms.

As things stand now, if a man-looking person heads towards a women's restroom, they stick out like a sore thumb. Of course this is not perfect protection, but it IS a deterrent to some degree. If we lose the "sore thumb" aspect, we've weakened the deterrent.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

What a person feels like does not make it true.

Where does truth and lie enter into a biological male with female psyche preferring to behave and be treated as biological female with a female psyche? Are you understanding that as she's claiming to be a biological female, which could be called a delusion, or lie if you prefer?

What I care about is other people being forced to agree or pretend they are the opposite gender.

I saw your comment about your workplace rules, which you identified as forcing you. Why is it so difficult to live by the Golden Rule here? I realize that YOU don't want to be treated like a woman, but if you did, encounters with people with your attitude would be hurtful to you. Why can't you be kind here and just give her what she wants? I could have written "him," but why would I do that? I'm not pretending she's an XY female by saying "she." I'm acknowledging that she likes to be treated like a woman, and I can't think of a reason to deny her that. What's yours?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Where does truth and lie enter into a biological male with female psyche preferring to behave and be treated as biological female with a female psyche? Are you understanding that as she's claiming to be a biological female, which could be called a delusion, or lie if you prefer?

I am a white male. If I asked you to refer to me as a black male because I feel that I am a black male, would you refer to me as a black male?

I saw your comment about your workplace rules, which you identified as forcing you. Why is it so difficult to live by the Golden Rule here? I realize that YOU don't want to be treated like a woman, but if you did, encounters with people with your attitude would be hurtful to you. Why can't you be kind here and just give her what she wants? I could have written "him," but why would I do that? I'm not pretending she's an XY female by saying "she." I'm acknowledging that she likes to be treated like a woman, and I can't think of a reason to deny her that. What's yours?

I never said what I would or would not do. What I said was that it is wrong for a federal or state organization to force people to state a lie.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I am a white male. If I asked you to refer to me as a black male because I feel that I am a black male, would you refer to me as a black male?

Not to others, but I would be respectful to you.

I'm trying to imagine what might follow after somebody asking for that. I don't actually interact with black people differently than white people. I don't refer to their skin color, speech mannerisms, or physical features in conversation, so I don't see your request having any effect on our interactions, but that's irrelevant. I would still try to be respectful of your self-identity. Once again, why wouldn't I?

I never said what I would or would not do. What I said was that it is wrong for a federal or state organization to force people to state a lie.

OK. Maybe you don't care to discuss your other feelings here, but if you don't mind answering, would you still comply with your workplace rules on this matter if they were rescinded? My default on this is that anybody who objects to such rules would not follow them unless coerced.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

No, I am saying a woman is an adult human female and a man is an adult human male regardless of what the person thinks they are.

Can you define the terms man and woman?

Can you define you without your brain? You've just repeated, you don't really think that who and what you are has anything at all to do with your brain.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Then you did not understand my post. You have government organizations punishing people for not stating a lie. That is a problem.

I have? As I said harassment laws are nothing new.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There are many men that are immature, that does not make them not men.

Where I come from it makes them boys.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

An adult male has different chromosome types than and adult female. Is this not correct?

Apparently not, according to the definition you have provided. Because it clearly doesn't mention anything about a man or woman being defined by their chromosomes. Perhaps you should read it again.

How do you define a man and a woman?

By who identifies as one.

 

[icehorse]

I am playing a "what if" game in which at least one SCOTUS justice opened the door, in a climate in which there is a very strong and very serious war against LGBTQ+ culture going on. This is something that you consistently seem to want to ignore. I feel like I have to assume it is because your sympathies lie with the "against" side.

But never forget, in a war, antagonists will use every possible advantage that they can find. We (or most of us, possibly not you) are seeing that playing out right across the United States.

Late response here, and perhaps this is a topic for a different thread but...

I don't think there is any such thing as "LGBTQ+ culture".

Can you clarify what you mean?