science XX XY - we follow the science
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The witchhunt continues...
- Thread starter Father Heathen
- Start date
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Feel free to point out who in this thread has said something is true "just because a PhD said so with no scientific support."
Or are you done straw manning yet?
????? Good morning? Is this a strawman effort?
Clizby Wampuscat
Well-Known Member
You can always be respectful, but why would you agree with me in a lie? I would not expect everyone to refer to me as black male.
So I would refer to them as they wish. But if I was asked by them or any other person if I thought they were an actual man or woman I would say no.
Clizby Wampuscat
Well-Known Member
That is not what I said at all. We are what is in our brains. I said that if my brain was in a woman's body I would be a woman.
Clizby Wampuscat
Well-Known Member
It is more than that as I have stated. It is being forced to state a lie. If a transwoman asked me if I thought she was an actual woman I would say no. Is that harassment?
Clizby Wampuscat
Well-Known Member
You wrote, "I am a white male. If I asked you to refer to me as a black male because I feel that I am a black male, would you refer to me as a black male?" How is that a lie to say you feel black? And why would I disagree with you when you tell me how you feel? If you told me you were black knowing that you had no knowledge of any black ancestry, perhaps to fraudulently reap some benefit, that would be a lie. But telling me you feel black is different.
Why are you so wedded to this word lie? Who's lying?
Me, too - on both counts. Answering yes would be the lie. But treating that person as a woman or man is not a lie.
So your objection was that your workplace compels you to do what you would do anyway?
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
I used to have a cat that made barking sounds.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
That's moving the goalposts.
Clizby Wampuscat
Well-Known Member
I clarified that.
So am I white because I identify as white or because it is true?
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
"Hirsutism, defined as excessive terminal hair growth, affects between 5 and 10 percent of women of reproductive age. Hirsutism may be the initial and possibly only sign of androgen excess, the cutaneous manifestations of which may also include acne and male-pattern balding (androgenetic alopecia). The pathophysiology and causes of androgen-mediated hair growth are reviewed here."I lean towards being a utilitarian. From that perspective I would say "perhaps". The condition you're mentioning is probably very rare. So if we did create such a rule, it would unfairly discriminate against an extremely small subset of people. If we use your logic, we could say that we must change all the doors in the world to accommodate those few individuals who are over 7 feet tall.
But the reality is that no rules or laws work perfectly all the time. The situation I'm discussing is - sadly - from rare. Rape and assault are all too common. So if we said something like "people with full facial hair must use special restrooms", we would inconvenience very few people and make millions of people just a little bit safer. That's a no-brainer for a utilitarian
(And for my literal minded opponents, the above was just a thought experiment, not a law I would actually propose.)
UpToDate
"The prevalence of hirsutism is ∼10% in most populations, with the important exception of Far-East Asian women who present hirsutism less frequently."
Epidemiology, diagnosis and management of hirsutism: a consensus statement by the Androgen Excess and Polycystic Ovary Syndrome Society
AbstractBACKGROUND. Hirsutism, defined by the presence of excessive terminal hair in androgen-sensitive areas of the female body, is one of the most common
Clizby Wampuscat
Well-Known Member
Because how I feel does not make things true or false. I can acknowledge they feel the way they do. I am not denying that. I call people whatever they want, but I would not state that I believe transgender men are men. I think that is a demonstrable lie.
That is my choice, other people should have the right to not participate in a lie if they don't want to.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
And in some cases, people who are fully or partially missing an X chromosome that have Turner Syndrome.
Or people who have an extra X chromosome who have Klinefelter syndrome.
Or a whole list of other chromosomal anomalies known to occur:
Chromosomes: Definition & Structure
Chromosomes carry our basic genetic material.
Do you check the chromosomes of every person you meet?
Do you take brain scans and analyze their DNA?
Do you measure their hormone levels?
Do you check their genitals?
Can you read peoples' minds?
If not, how are you determining it's a "lie?"
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Clizby Wampuscat
Well-Known Member
So is not using pronouns that are inconsistent with their anatomy harassment? If so, why?
If I identified as black would it be harassment if someone did not refer to me as black? (I am white)
And in some cases, people who are fully or partially missing an X chromosome that have Turner Syndrome.
Or people who have an extra X chromosome who have Klinefelter syndrome.
Or a whole list of other chromosomal anomalies known to occur:
Chromosomes: Definition & Structure
Chromosomes carry our basic genetic material.www.livescience.com
Do you check the chromosomes of every person you meet?
Do you take brain scans and analyze their DNA?
Do you measure their hormone levels?
Do you check their genitals?
Can you read peoples' minds?
If not, how are you determining it's a "lie?"
change of subject... moving goal posts...
People with an extra X chromosome get treated medically as well as other chromosomal anomalies. Are you following science now?
This is so normal when people don't want to follow science.
Yes, you've said all of that already, and I responded with a few questions, all of which you ignored:
"How is that a lie to say you feel black? And why would I disagree with you when you tell me how you feel? If you told me you were black knowing that you had no knowledge of any black ancestry, perhaps to fraudulently reap some benefit, that would be a lie. But telling me you feel black is different. Why are you so wedded to this word lie? Who's lying?"
Here's my best guess why (and guessing people's motives out loud causes many to bristle, but I don't see why; apologies in advance if that's you, too). Answering them undermines your claim that these people are lying. If you care to modify that best guess, please do. It's just a best guess based on my understanding of human nature and your choice to answer none of it and repeat yourself, but if it's wrong, it's helpful to me to know why you think so.
So this is you standing up for people in your workplace who aren't as kind to LGBTQ+ as you are?
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
East Coast or West?
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Uh, no. Same subject, Kenny. It was a direct response to your claim of "science XX XY - we follow the science."
That was in response to my question about how you know it's a "lie."
The only way you could know "it's a lie" is:
Do you check the chromosomes of every person you meet?
Do you take brain scans and analyze their DNA?
Do you measure their hormone levels?
Do you check their genitals?
Can you read peoples' minds?
If not, how are you determining it's a "lie?"
It's not all that surprising to me that you have zero response to that.
I am following science. You are not.